334 réponses à ce sujet

[naledgeborn]

Yes, let the Morri fans be heard. Morrigan minus Warden is a big deal breaker.

[Vicious]

It was obviously meant to be a big plot point.



However, they [Bioware] went a different route.



So in all, I think the DR is going to be a dangling plotline never referred back to. Bio games are rife with those.

[Spartansfan8888]

It's a huge variable; not just whether Urthemiel was preserved but also the Warden's witch hunt involvement. In some cases it would make sense to have warden + Urthemiel + Morrigan all together but I guess we'll see where Morrigan's story is going because she is the only one so far we know has continuation from the original game.

[Brockololly]

Vicious wrote...

It was obviously meant to be a big plot point.

However, they [Bioware] went a different route.

So in all, I think the DR is going to be a dangling plotline never referred back to. Bio games are rife with those.

Eh, if that is indeed the case, that would be one mighty kick in the balls if BioWare is going to keep touting the whole "no canon" approach. Its really the one big, huge choice from Origins and they'd just hand wave it away? They certainly could, but meh.

I think Gaider has mentioned before its the biggest choice from Origins, so I can't see them ignoring it, especially if Morrigan factors into future plot lines. Certainly it may not be a big deal in DA2, but my hope is that it comes back in a big way in DA3 or something.

Hopefully.

[Vicious]

Morrigan is important. the god baby is not. Regardless of whether he exists or she has a child at all, she still goes through the mirror.

The god baby just SEEMS important. Probably was supposed to be at one point, but Bioware went a different path and let the players pick their own canon.

So it won't amount to a whole lot. If it's even ever referred back to, which I doubt.


I hope it makes a difference too, but I just don't see any way it could be remotely possible and not wholly disappointing.

Modifié par Vicious, 10 octobre 2010 - 08:47 .

[Brockololly]

Vicious wrote...

Morrigan is important. the god baby is not. Regardless of whether he exists or she has a child at all, she still goes through the mirror.

The god baby just SEEMS important. Probably was supposed to be at one point, but Bioware went a different path and let the players pick their own canon.

So it won't amount to a whole lot. If it's even ever referred back to, which I doubt.


I hope it makes a difference too, but I just don't see any way it could be remotely possible and not wholly disappointing.

Yeah, it very may well turn out that way. Hell, you can already see it in Witch Hunt where Morrigan says that "The Ritual was but a means to an end, a herald for what is to come." Versus if you didn't do the Ritual she says "You denied me the ritual but it does not change what is to come."

If there is indeed no big difference/branching storyline from this, then it really throws into question the point behind the whole "no canon" approach if in the end, all of these big choices really just amount to a slightly different dialogue or a different character filling an identical role, like Ash/Kaiden in ME2. If its just going to be like that, I'd much rather they either deal with choices like that within the game or just canonize something.

Its just pointless with the "no canon" approach if every big "choice" gets melted down into some cookie cutter "consequence" thats hand waved away into some one size fits all scene.

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote..
Well, the problem is that BioWare has said on numerous occasions that Morrigan's story is not over. And then they give players the chance to specifically follow Morrigan through the Eluvian to "face the future together." And even if you don't go through the Eluvian with her, there is a good chance your Warden has some connection to her. 

Right, but following Morrigan through the mirror is a pretty easy way to write the Warden off. [Insert Event Happened] and the Warden died/sacrificed while Morrigan survived. Problem solved. Well, aside from the loss of agency, but this is the problem in  a nutshell with customizable protagonists and continuing stories. You have to either consistently exclude possible characters and personalities the more the game goes on and the more divergent paths there are, or just take agency away.

So, since BioWare didn't bother answering any Morrigan questions in Witch Hunt and they've said MOrrigan's story isn't over, what are they going to do? Simply handwave away the Warden that followed her, relegating them to some codex entry? Left wondering why Morrigan came out of the Eluvian to go about the most climactic events in her plan while the Warden who went with her was lost in the Bermuda Triangle along with Maric?

In a nutshell, I'm betting yes.

Although, now that I think of it, they could write up a Warden DLC in any DA game, to be perfectly honest. The only problem will be the interface, since they're likely not about to add VO to the Warden.

Certainly BioWare could do that, but so long as they're continuing Morrigan's story, I think its myopic to just ditch the Warden, the one character that has knowledge of her and some sort of relationship with her, in favor of some new PC who, given Morrigan's personality, would simply be starting from square one with her.

Whereas I think the Warden is a boring and uninteresting character, and the series is more interesting for having ditched that particular concept. In fact, I think the absolute weakest part of the series was the Grey Wardens (and the blight; but the blight is a brilliant concept that was poorly executed).

Its a matter of emotional engagement in continuing Morrigan's story, and whether you love her or hate her as a character, her story is best suited by allowing the Warden, whether ORlesian or Hero of Ferelden to continue interacting with her. To ignore the Warden's role in Morrigan's story going forward is just bad storytelling.

We've had this discussion before, but while I will grant in-game, there is more emotional involvement from the Warden, it is only the Hero of Ferelden who has that honour. The Orlesian is irrelvant. If you grant that the Orlesian's first meeting with Morrigan is a sufficient motivation hook, then any arbitrary hero's first meeting could be equally good. It is not being a Grey Warden that makes our Warden connected - it is the personal experience.

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...
If there is indeed no big difference/branching storyline from this, then it really throws into question the point behind the whole "no canon" approach if in the end, all of these big choices really just amount to a slightly different dialogue or a different character filling an identical role, like Ash/Kaiden in ME2. If its just going to be like that, I'd much rather they either deal with choices like that within the game or just canonize something.

Its just pointless with the "no canon" approach if every big "choice" gets melted down into some cookie cutter "consequence" thats hand waved away into some one size fits all scene.

It will always be minor. It has to be. To give any plot choice major status it needs to have a game designed around it as a central plot. That either means huge swaths of optional content many players may never see, or cannon choices. If they want to avoid cannon, then it means no impact.

Personally, I thought in DA2 they'd chuck the Warden, move the story foward a few decades, and give us ME style VO with the godbaby as our human lead and cannon ending. Shame they didn't. Was hopeful that was exactly what they were doing when they announced Hawke.

[Brockololly]

In Exile wrote...
Right, but following Morrigan through the mirror is a pretty easy way to write the Warden off. [Insert Event Happened] and the Warden died/sacrificed while Morrigan survived. Problem solved.

Oh sure, but seriously? Why bother with anything in Witch Hunt if they just write off the Warden as having been given the Viconia treatment that way? They certainly could do that, and hell, half expect them to, but they would just be completely missing the point. They could have just as easily written off the Warden post Awakening with all of the "vanished" epilogues and yet they brought the Wardens back in WH, where every Warden searches for Morrigan, Orlesian or Ferelden.

To simply write off the Warden while still keeping Morrigan's story going forward just completely misses the point behind people wanting to see the DR plot/Morrigan's plot go forward to a large extent I think. To simply inject some new Epic Hero of Thedas into Morrigan's story whenever it resumes would be like writing off Luke Skywalker after the EMpire Strikes Back to simply have some random Jawa face down Darth Vader. Yeah, you could think of something to make it "work" but it lacks any of the emotional build up. And WItch Hunt certainly does nothing but bait people into thinking that the Wardens, especially those who romanced Morrigan, have some role to play in the future. If that was the end of the Warden, it would have been better off to just leave him/her as having vanished after Awakening.

In Exile wrote...
Whereas I think the Warden is a boring and uninteresting character, and the series is more interesting for having ditched that particular concept. In fact, I think the absolute weakest part of the series was the Grey Wardens (and the blight; but the blight is a brilliant concept that was poorly executed).

The Warden concept as it was in Origins was fairly one note and I think if they explored more of what the "official" Wardens up in the Anderfels or across Thedas did, it would be more interesting. Or how they would react to a Warden who did the DR, or spared the Architect or what they know about the Old Gods. Again, to liken back to Star Wars, in Origins the Warden and Alistair were 2 Warden noobs not knowing what the hell they were doing. Like Luke after A New Hope. Sure, you call Luke a Jedi at the end of A New Hope and  end the whole Jedi thing there and its not that interesting- but then you're missing out on Yoda and everything else (ignoring the prequels).

And yeah, the Blight was mishandled, I'd say. It never felt like an imminent danger and was never made into a personal fight- had the darkspawn killed off a companion or something or just have been more of a looming threat, it would have felt more urgent.

In Exile wrote...
We've had this discussion before, but while I will grant in-game, there is more emotional involvement from the Warden, it is only the Hero of Ferelden who has that honour. The Orlesian is irrelvant. If you grant that the Orlesian's first meeting with Morrigan is a sufficient motivation hook, then any arbitrary hero's first meeting could be equally good. It is not being a Grey Warden that makes our Warden connected - it is the personal experience.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I agree that for the Hero of Ferelden, the emotional engagement is there and would be stupid to throw away, friend, enemy or lover. If the Orlesian stabbed Morrigan, I'd say thats a notable thing- you don't stab someone and kick them through a portal and then go on your merry way if you're trying to make a game with consequences.

And if you've played through Witch Hunt with the Orlesian its made clear that the Wardens specifically as a group have some role yet to play in the whole "change"  thats brewing and Morrigan specifically tasks the Orlesian to warn the Wardens specifically of Flemeth and what is to come. So sure, the personal connection might not be anywhere near as close as to the Hero of Ferelden, but the fact that the Orlesian is a Warden is still a significant thing given what Morrigan says.

[Ithlim]

One way or another in the end world will need to be saved by a hero and i'm thinking the idea of this savior will be OGB for people who did DR and for the rejecters of DR who could that be? Here that stands in front of you our new protagonist Hawke. But it's just my idea we can't know what BioWare is preparing for us but i'm sure they're doing their best to feed our imagination while they're working we can only imagine and guess

[Morroian]

Brockololly wrote...

And if you've played through Witch Hunt with the Orlesian its made clear that the Wardens specifically as a group have some role yet to play in the whole "change"  thats brewing and Morrigan specifically tasks the Orlesian to warn the Wardens specifically of Flemeth and what is to come. So sure, the personal connection might not be anywhere near as close as to the Hero of Ferelden, but the fact that the Orlesian is a Warden is still a significant thing given what Morrigan says.

There are hints in DAO about Warden blood and demons, specifically with Avernus, maybe thats hints for where the story is going.

[Morrigans God son]

Well I just hope in DA3 we don't have to switch PC again, and we remain the Warden. I mean if Morrigan is making this return in DA3, I don't want to meet her all over again as another character called Shepard junior, or whatever.



BioWare had different plots for ELF/DWARF/HUMAN/MALE/FEMALE/ORIGINS

It shouldn't be overly difficult to include the godbaby in some form.

[Brockololly]

My dream DA3 would be that you have multiple protagonists- set it up with part of the game as the Warden and part of the game as Hawke maybe. Then given Hawke's personality being tracked Hawke could even be an NPC while you were playing as the Warden. Maybe have it similar to Lord of the Rings' structure where you had Aragorn and company on one path with Frodo and Sam off on another- just do the same thing with Hawke/ the Warden. Or have Hawke/ the Warden on opposing sides of a Flemeth/Morrigan brouhaha.

The issue there would be whether BioWare would adopt the silent PC and voiced PC dialogue systems in one game or whether they'd give the Warden a voice- not likely.

@Morroian: Definitely- there are quite a few plot threads dangling with the Taint and the Wardens and how they connect to Flemeth and Morrigan. BioWare has certainly left the door open with the Warden and Morrigan in Witch Hunt, whether or not they just slam it in our face remains to be seen.

Modifié par Brockololly, 10 octobre 2010 - 11:37 .

[revan11exile]

Brockololly wrote...

My dream DA3 would be that you have multiple protagonists- set it up with part of the game as the Warden and part of the game as Hawke maybe. Then given Hawke's personality being tracked Hawke could even be an NPC while you were playing as the Warden. Maybe have it similar to Lord of the Rings' structure where you had Aragorn and company on one path with Frodo and Sam off on another- just do the same thing with Hawke/ the Warden. Or have Hawke/ the Warden on opposing sides of a Flemeth/Morrigan brouhaha.

The issue there would be whether BioWare would adopt the silent PC and voiced PC dialogue systems in one game or whether they'd give the Warden a voice- not likely.

@Morroian: Definitely- there are quite a few plot threads dangling with the Taint and the Wardens and how they connect to Flemeth and Morrigan. BioWare has certainly left the door open with the Warden and Morrigan in Witch Hunt, whether or not they just slam it in our face remains to be seen.

I like how you think Brock BioWare make it happen:wizard:

[Vicious]

Interesting, I don't see the Warden returning, though.



That said, I sincerely doubt Hawke will return either.



Bioware appears to be deliberatly avoiding a flagship protagonist this time around.



So DA3? Another hero. Another adventure. I'd like it if the OGB was featured as a teammate, but I can just imagine the whining from the Morrigan-haters that they cannot experience a companion/romance due to a decision they made 2 games ago.

[Rakumn]

I think it would be very cool if your warden were to become a temporary companion at some point in the game.


Say you had to pay a trip to andraste's mountain, and despite the possible public visitations it's received, he needed to reach the top himself to see/take/fight something. (Though, because of traps, if you chose not to let anyone come, the summit is still unreachable to most). "Your" warden would be in the tavern nearby in the recreated lake, noticing you. He asks if you need a guide, or vice versa. Do a small questline with his or her assistance.

I think there might be some exploitation if he/she became permanent, but a temporary blast from the past would be awesome.

Modifié par Rakumn, 11 octobre 2010 - 01:04 .

[pizoxuat]

If they made the Warden a temporary party member they would have to give the Warden a voice, and therefore retroactively ruin DAO for several vocal people.

Modifié par pizoxuat, 11 octobre 2010 - 02:08 .

[tmp7704]

pizoxuat wrote...

If they made the Warden a temporary party member they would have to give the Warden a voice, and therefore retroactively ruin DAO for several vocal people.

Also the changes done to how classes are set up mean it wouldn't exactly be possible to import quite a few people's Wardens without changing them into something quite different talents/skills/specializations wise... which probably wouldn't get warm welcome, either.

[Rakumn]

You wouldn't need to give them a voice. There are quite a couple of incidents when there was a silent character in DA:...A? (Or O, possibly). As for skills. All they'd need to do is import the characters skills over. Tactics would be reset probably.

Let me stress temporary.


I mean temporary as in those two guys who helped you in the forest up until morrigan showed up back in DA:O. Nothing expansive. It could be DLC and completely optional on wether or not you want his/her help.

Modifié par Rakumn, 11 octobre 2010 - 02:51 .

[tmp7704]

Rakumn wrote...

As for skills. All they'd need to do is import the characters skills over. Tactics would be reset probably.

The thing is, that's no longer possible in some cases. Dual-wield talents for warriors being the most obvious case -- DA2 doesn't support that skill-path for the warrior and has no animations for such warrior. Same for bow-oriented warrior although that i'd imagine to be more rare.

[Brockololly]

tmp7704 wrote...

Rakumn wrote...

As for skills. All they'd need to do is import the characters skills over. Tactics would be reset probably.

The thing is, that's no longer possible in some cases. Dual-wield talents for warriors being the most obvious case -- DA2 doesn't support that skill-path for the warrior and has no animations for such warrior. Same for bow-oriented warrior although that i'd imagine to be more rare.

Well, conceivably the Warden isn't coming back for DA2 anyway, so no worries there. It would be DA3 or beyond- and who knows what they'll have then. At any rate, given that they've redone the face morph system you;d likely have to redo the Warden's face and then as far as classes and such, it wouldn't be any different than reselcting your class like in ME2.

The bigger issue would be whether they give the Warden a voice or not.

[Rakumn]

tmp7704 wrote...

Rakumn wrote...

As for skills. All they'd need to do is import the characters skills over. Tactics would be reset probably.

The thing is, that's no longer possible in some cases. Dual-wield talents for warriors being the most obvious case -- DA2 doesn't support that skill-path for the warrior and has no animations for such warrior. Same for bow-oriented warrior although that i'd imagine to be more rare.

How about BW construct a template and have our Warden fall into what ever their class was?

Mage = Powerful fire/ice/arcane with one heal. He'd have extra points to rank of abilies, if wanted.
Spec = Spirit Master

Warrior = Two-Hand
Spec = Champion

Rogue = Melee with master lockpicking
Spec = Duelist


Sure, game mechanic wise, they won't be our special wardens, but it'd be kind of cool to have a quest with them along.

Oh, if you did not import, he'd as you before joining. "Let me get my armor.. what weapon did I bring with me..?"
1. Stave (Mage)
2. Axe (Warrior)
3. Dagger (Rogue)

[Brockololly]

The Warden as an NPC is for the most part a bad idea. It could work for Hawke given that he'll be voiced and have his/her personality tracked and all, but with the Warden it would come off as cheap in more cases than not. But thats likely a topic for DA3....

[Rakumn]

I'm only saying it'd be a small quest, maybe a tiny DLC. Easter egg, possibly, for those who import their games.

[Morrigans God son]

Who cares about skills & what level your warden was? I'd happily start at level 1 or whatever all over again, if need be.