334 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonsony09]

Morrigans God son wrote...

Who cares about skills & what level your warden was? I'd happily start at level 1 or whatever all over again, if need be.

dam right i'd give up my own mother to have the wardan back so being level 1 again would be no problem
with me

i was jokeing about the mother think but i'd give up a lot:D

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...

Oh sure, but seriously? Why bother with anything in Witch Hunt if they just write off the Warden as having been given the Viconia treatment that way? They certainly could do that, and hell, half expect them to, but they would just be completely missing the point.

Arguably, because they wanted to introduce the mirror and foreshadow a plot in DA2. They could have created a new protagonist for the DLC, but that would cause even more of a stir. At least as I see it the Warden as a character was not strictly speaking central to the DLC - it was the mirror and what Morrigan was doing as a potential counterbalance to Flemeth.

They could have just as easily written off the Warden post Awakening with all of the "vanished" epilogues and yet they brought the Wardens back in WH, where every Warden searches for Morrigan, Orlesian or Ferelden.

Which was, like I said above, as much a requirement of the fact it was a DLC set in the current post-Origin world as much as anything else.

To simply write off the Warden while still keeping Morrigan's story going forward just completely misses the point behind people wanting to see the DR plot/Morrigan's plot go forward to a large extent I think. To simply inject some new Epic Hero of Thedas into Morrigan's story
whenever it resumes would be like writing off Luke Skywalker after the
EMpire Strikes Back to simply have some random Jawa face down Darth
Vader. Yeah, you could think of something to make it "work" but it lacks
any of the emotional build up. And WItch Hunt certainly does nothing
but bait people into thinking that the Wardens, especially those who
romanced Morrigan, have some role to play in the future. If that was the
end of the Warden, it would have been better off to just leave him/her
as having vanished after Awakening.

But... the Orlesian Warden is exactly this. He is a new epic level hero with the Ferelden Warden written off moving the plot foward. Again, if you grant this is okay, why is some other hero not okay? You've said it is because of some special link the the Wardens - well, what if DA 3 has some new Warden character with VO from the Anderfels? He has as much of a link as the Orlesian Warden did, which is to say none.

To take a loot at your Star Wars analogy - with the Orlesian Luke is dead and you have a "Corellian" Jedi fighting Vader.

It may be my absolutely dislike for the Warden as a character and the Grey Wadens as a whole, but I just do not see this connection.

If there was ever a sign that the Warden was out of the DA line as a significant fact, it's that they already had to invent some new character just to make people partially feel like the US was taken into account (and that was tone really poorly at that).

The Warden concept as it was in Origins was fairly one note and I think if they explored more of what the "official" Wardens up in the Anderfels or across Thedas did, it would be more interesting. Or how they would react to a Warden who did the DR, or spared the Architect or what they know about the Old Gods.

I think that would still not be very interesting.

The Wardens failed as a concept because they failed to represent what they were meant to. They were supposed to be about sacrifice - about paying whatever price was neccesary to stop an unrelenting evil, because failing to do so would have meant allowing an apocalypse to happen.

But DA absolutely failed to do this.

(1) They failed to give you any motivation to care about the Wardens as an order. You start the game as someone who is not a Warden, which already gives you tremendous psychological distance from their order. Depending on the origin, you might have a very strong motivation to abandon the order at first chance (i.e. the human noble). You do not meet any Wardens beyond Duncan, who all things considered comes off as a kidnapper depending on your choices. Why should this order mean anything to me? 

(2) The game utterly fails to justify why Wardens are neccesary until about 50+ hours in. Why do you suffer through Joining, which is potentially fatal and will cut your lifespan short? A fate that is filled with intense nightmares, and who knows what other physical changes? As far as we know throughout most of the game, because a Warden will apparently sense darkspawn. Which isn't even that useful, because darkspawn sense you right back, so you can't even ambush them. I know that the trick is that only a Warden can kill an archdemon, but you never know this; so the Warden order seems useless.

(3) The Blight has no psychological immediacy or danger. You see darkspawn at Ostagar overrun Cailan. Then you don't see darkspawn do anything of note - beside the Deep Roads - the rest of the game. It does create a sense of... the darkspawn are a never ending evil that must be killed. The darkspawn do not, as Flemeth put it, nip at your heels.

I think the exact same plot would have worked great, had it been set during the first Blight, with the founding of the Wardens. You have the same system and settings, except each Origin has its life shattered by a darkspawn attack, and the new Warden order saves you. You are made part of them, through the Joining, and told the mission from the start. Then the game is about raising an army from the shattered lands of Thedas, and it ends in the climax at the Silent Fields against Dumas and the unstoppable horde of darkspawn.

Same game (in principle), except that it all actually seems like it matters.

Again, to liken back to Star Wars, in Origins the Warden and Alistair were 2 Warden noobs not knowing what the hell they were doing. Like Luke after A New Hope. Sure, you call Luke a Jedi at the end of A New Hope and  end the whole Jedi thing there and its not that interesting- but then you're missing out on Yoda and everything else (ignoring the prequels).

But the Jedi were very interesting, and central to the plot even in a New Hope. We had an extinct order that represented the civility and heorism of an age gone by. We had a villain who had betrayed that order and was a visible and overwhelming antagonist. We had him kill the mentor of the protagonist without the protagonist ever having a chance to strike back.

Compared to the Grey Wardens, the Jedi were portrayed as very interesting.

And yeah, the Blight was mishandled, I'd say. It never felt like an imminent danger and was never made into a personal fight- had the darkspawn killed off a companion or something or just have been more of a looming threat, it would have felt more urgent.

I dont think so. The issue was that the Blight, which was supposed to threaten the world, never did. We only caught a glimpse of that at Denerim.

If the darkspawn were overruning Redcliffe, if they had already struck at the Brecillian forest, if you had to protect the dwarves from them... then it would feel like you were desparate, that you were bringing toghether an army of survivors for one last, desparate crash against an overwhelming enemy. Then, defeating the blight would have meant something more.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I agree that for the Hero of Ferelden, the emotional engagement is there and would be stupid to throw away, friend, enemy or lover. If the Orlesian stabbed Morrigan, I'd say thats a notable thing- you don't stab someone and kick them through a portal and then go on your merry way if you're trying to make a game with consequences. 

Sure, but Hawke could stab Morrigan. Steve the Warden from the Anderfells could stab Morrigan. You can litterally sub in any person to do the same, if that one thing is sufficient for being emotionally engaged. Any character could have the same sort of moment.

And if you've played through Witch Hunt with the Orlesian its made clear that the Wardens specifically as a group have some role yet to play in the whole "change"  thats brewing and Morrigan specifically tasks the Orlesian to warn the Wardens specifically of Flemeth and what is to come. So sure, the personal connection might not be anywhere near as close as to the Hero of Ferelden, but the fact that the Orlesian is a Warden is still a significant thing given what Morrigan says.

I suppose this goes right back to having to care about the Wardens, and I just don't. This is why I am excited about Hawke as a protagonist. I honestly do not know if I could handle another game in this series that, like Awakening, force you into such a hardcore I<3Wardens role.

[Vicious]

the Orlesian Warden is exactly this. He is a new epic level hero with the Ferelden Warden written off moving the plot foward. Again, if you grant this is okay, why is some other hero not okay? You've said it is because of some special link the the Wardens - well, what if DA 3 has some new Warden character with VO from the Anderfels? He has as much of a link as the Orlesian Warden did, which is to say none.

That's some serious forum ownage right there.

[Brockololly]

In Exile wrote...
Arguably, because they wanted to introduce the mirror and foreshadow a plot in DA2. They could have created a new protagonist for the DLC, but that would cause even more of a stir. At least as I see it the Warden as a character was not strictly speaking central to the DLC - it was the mirror and what Morrigan was doing as a potential counterbalance to Flemeth.

Well if the only point to WH was the Eluvian and Morrigan's plans then it failed horribly as it didn't answer any such questions about any of that. And any notion of finding out what Morrigan is doing lies with the Warden- she sure as hell wouldn't tell some random dude like Hawke. The fact that WH tracks the flags as to what your Warden did in the end surely isn't insignificant either. I don't know if you've played WH or not, but at least if you're playing as the Hero of Ferelden, then the Warden is rather central to WH. And like I've said the notion of it being a Warden is also significant given what Morrigan tells you.

In Exile wrote...
But... the Orlesian Warden is exactly this. He is a new epic level hero with the Ferelden Warden written off moving the plot foward. Again, if you grant this is okay, why is some other hero not okay? You've said it is because of some special link the the Wardens - well, what if DA 3 has some new Warden character with VO from the Anderfels?

Right- the notion that its possibly the Orlesian Warden in Witch Hunt is because the player made the choice to possibly get themselves killed doing the Ultimate Sacrifice. The original Warden wasn't written off in that case- the player made that choice, they weren't handwaved away or killed off in the epilogue a la Viconia. So sure, the Orlesian is your Biff the Understudy for all the US'ers. Thats your consequence.

And yes, if Morrigan's story going forward required some Warden PC, they could ditch the Orlesian for some voiced Anderfels guy. You can come up with a million story reasons to do so. But you can come up with just as many story reasons to keep the Orlesian too with respect to Morrigan's story. If you read the coedx entry on the Orlesian in WH, it specifically states how the First Warden specifically tasked the Orlesian, as the Warden COmmander in Ferelden, to find out what Morrigan and Flemeth's role in the Blight was ANd throughout the course of Witch Hunt, the Orlesian investiagtes and uncovers clues as to Morrigan and Flemeth's role. He is the lead Warden investigator in this matter- no other Wardens presumably besides the First Warden know anything about this.

So the Orlesian gets to some ancient, mythical mirror, one which no one even knew existed let alone working. And he/she finds Morrigan there- again, very few people have ever seen or know who Morrigan is. And the Orlesian can have a conversation where Morrigan specifically warns the Orlesian of specific things such as Flemeth and the "Change," which she specifically tasks the Orlesian to go warn the other Wardens about.

Thats all stuff that if the Orlesian went back and told to the Wardens, I'm sure quite a few would say he is full of it. Thats all stuff of legend. He is the only other Warden, maybe besides Alistair or the Hero of Ferelden to have met Morrigan and interacted with her. So if in the future, you needed a Warden to get involved with Morrigan, wouldn't you send out the guy thats already met her and spoken to her, a guy that has already been able to track her down once before?

And then you've got the fact that the Orlesian can stab Morrigan in the gut. Thats a pretty damn personal connection you form when you walk up to somebody, whip out the murder knife and try to spill their innards out. But oops! You screwed up and let Morrigan fall through the  ELuvian, no doubt not killing her. That has to form some sort of connection between them, no? Certainly nothing like the Hero of Ferelden, but still, gut stabbing someone is a personal thing.

And even if you don't have the Orlesian stab Morrigan and let her go through the Eluvian on her own, she leaves you a mysterious gift, one which Morrigan specifically states that "you will find of great interest." Yet you never figure out what that is- now maybe thats a loose end we'll never figure out, but its specifcally meaningful to the Orlesian at that point.


Basically, so long as the Wardens are still relevent to Morrigan's story and you were to bring a Warden back besides the Hero of Ferelden, there is no reason why you wouldn't have it be the Orlesian. Of course, the Hero of Ferelden or if you romanced Morrigan and went through the ELuvian thats leaps and bounds more of a personal connection and more emotional engagement, but I think we agree on that?

In Exile wrote...
Sure, but Hawke could stab Morrigan. Steve the Warden from the Anderfells could stab Morrigan. You can litterally sub in any person to do the same, if that one thing is sufficient for being emotionally engaged. Any character could have the same sort of moment.

Right, but the Orlesian Warden has already stabbed Morrigan potentially. So if Morrigan came back into the plot, you'd be dealing with the consequences of stabbing her as the Orlesian, not having Steve the Warden have to stab her again and wait for the next game to get any consequences to his actions. And that leaves the matter of the gift Morrigan leaves to the Orlesian as well.

Modifié par Brockololly, 11 octobre 2010 - 03:21 .

[Vicious]

DA:O without Morrigan is lamesauce. Generic_fantasy_story 121. Hell even Ferelden, with its quirks, was still generic as all hell.

[UberDuber]

Cartims wrote...

Vicious wrote...

DA:O without Morrigan is lamesauce. Generic_fantasy_story 121. Hell even Ferelden, with its quirks, was still generic as all hell.

I agree.....Morrigan is DA...

 I also agree, Morrigan makes DA. With a little help from other characters, like Flemeth, Alistair, Loghain. Hell there like back-up dancers.

Morrigan with a Yankees hat = fly.

[Daxne Kettel_]

Saibh wrote...

I'm amazed that a modded face was used as the article cover instead of her actual face. Personally, I can't play with the modded version since it doesn't feel like "her", but I just hate how unreal she looks.

In any case, it's nothing we didn't know already, but maybe some shrieking fans who rush into the forums after hearing the rumor that the DR isn't canon can be railroaded here.

Really? To me, the modded face makes her look more like a ****; which is what she is. It suits her.

[kaniwynplz]

i dont understand demon posession and this is making me even more confused. it just doesnt stick to any rules. a 3 day old egg fusion doesnt have any blood in it. i think they should have made a huge add on just to show the entire joining process because i think there must be more to it than just drinking blood. the ritual, which by the way, is not the intimate part is even more confusing. seems like they need to make separate add ons for all ALL the blacked out parts.

[Aermas]

kaniwynplz wrote...

i dont understand demon posession and this is making me even more confused. it just doesnt stick to any rules. a 3 day old egg fusion doesnt have any blood in it. i think they should have made a huge add on just to show the entire joining process because i think there must be more to it than just drinking blood. the ritual, which by the way, is not the intimate part is even more confusing. seems like they need to make separate add ons for all ALL the blacked out parts.

Think of the Joining as a DNA  gene-splice. Drink some darkspawn blood, pass out, let the newly acquired DNA strands to sinc up & now you are part darkspawn. Yay. Then your child will gain the tainted DNA sequences & the spirit of an uncorrupted god.

[kaniwynplz]

it will be a dragon demon/dragon/human. and the swamp witch will not kill it? should have killed her on sight. seems like the mages are causing a lot problems again. my biggest complaint from DAO story, why taint the only backup to the king? they were married for 5 years and still had no kids. alistair was joined only 6 months ago. connor became all magey so was out. so, are we supposed to side with eadmon/bann/chantry/circleofmages or destroy the bloodline and have a kingdom ruled by swingin singles?

[Aermas]

Nothing is wrong with Alister. Darkspawn taint is only harmful to those in the Joining process

[AxelBat]

In Exile wrote...

I dont think so. The issue was that the Blight, which was supposed to threaten the world, never did. We only caught a glimpse of that at Denerim.

I don't want to disagree with you as a whole because you DID make some really good points. I love the Wardens, but I see all your points and I agree with quite a few of them.

That said, I thought it was made pretty clear in the game that the Blight was ended before it ever really began? Maybe it's just me, maybe I was picking up on something that wasn't there, but it was mentioned several times that it didn't feel like a true blight and when you DO deafeat the Acrhdemon I remember it being mentioned that you stopped the blight before it ever really began. Plus, I never really got the feeling it was supposed to threaten the world, just Fereldon for the time being. Other nations didn't really seem that concerned and said that IF it spread than they would deal with it. Again, maybe I'm missing something >.>

ON TOPIC, this post has a really good point, and I don't know where they will go from here. Did Bioware already have a plan? I'm sure if Demon God Baby does come into exsistance than there will be an explaination for those whom didn't feel the urge to take Morigan up on her offer. Is that satisfactory? Probably not, but you can't satisfy everyone... right?

I dunno, I'm content either way, at least in this aspect, and personally I'M looking forward to God Baby, though I don't know if my excitment is more because of it being bad-arse or just plain goofy. Either way, I'll have fun.

[Dave of Canada]

Aermas wrote...

Nothing is wrong with Alister. Darkspawn taint is only harmful to those in the Joining process

Thank heavens.

[Taura-Tierno]

I don't see why it would be so terribly difficult for Bioware to follow up on the DR-decision, no matter what choice the player made. Since Morrigan stated in Witch Hunt that the child was a means to an end, she's obviously going to do something with or without the child. Writing different scenarios for either choosing or not choosing to go along with the DR for that part of the game shouldn't be terribly impossible, should it?



I have faith in Bioware.

[darkmage84]

GodWood wrote...

The DR isn't canon, deal with it.

IMO, Bioware hasn't established much of a cannon yet, but you will almost have to with an option this big.  Weather it's DA 3, 4, 5 or 6, a person with the soul of an old god, will not be contempt with a mundane life.  Either they will be a great hero or a great villian.

[darkmage84]

AxelBat wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I dont think so. The issue was that the Blight, which was supposed to threaten the world, never did. We only caught a glimpse of that at Denerim.

I don't want to disagree with you as a whole because you DID make some really good points. I love the Wardens, but I see all your points and I agree with quite a few of them.

That said, I thought it was made pretty clear in the game that the Blight was ended before it ever really began? Maybe it's just me, maybe I was picking up on something that wasn't there, but it was mentioned several times that it didn't feel like a true blight and when you DO deafeat the Acrhdemon I remember it being mentioned that you stopped the blight before it ever really began. Plus, I never really got the feeling it was supposed to threaten the world, just Fereldon for the time being. Other nations didn't really seem that concerned and said that IF it spread than they would deal with it. Again, maybe I'm missing something >.>

ON TOPIC, this post has a really good point, and I don't know where they will go from here. Did Bioware already have a plan? I'm sure if Demon God Baby does come into exsistance than there will be an explaination for those whom didn't feel the urge to take Morigan up on her offer. Is that satisfactory? Probably not, but you can't satisfy everyone... right?

I dunno, I'm content either way, at least in this aspect, and personally I'M looking forward to God Baby, though I don't know if my excitment is more because of it being bad-arse or just plain goofy. Either way, I'll have fun.

I think you're reading too much into it.

first, it was a real blight.  Everyone kept saying that because there was no sign of an archdemon, and without one, it isn't a true blight.  only the grey wardens, knew it was a blight.

second, the claims that "theblight ended before it really began," is allegory.  It technically began, when the archdemon woke.  People say this because this blight never made it out of Ferelden.  The Darkspawn had a major victory at Ostagar, but the next time they assembled in a massive horde, they were defeated.

Third, this blight could threaten all of the thedas, however, just like any other blight, the darkspawn would be defeated, so I get your point

[Morroian]

darkmage84 wrote...

IMO, Bioware hasn't established much of a cannon yet, but you will almost have to with an option this big.  Weather it's DA 3, 4, 5 or 6, a person with the soul of an old god, will not be contempt with a mundane life.  Either they will be a great hero or a great villian.

Thats what I think as well but David Gaider has stated that its not canon and implied that the different choices will be dealt with, and not by a workaround where the OGB got created anyway, so they must have some plan.

[Dave of Canada]

I, for one, would not like to see the god baby.

Why?

Here's the father, Derp Amell.


Looks a bit like Jacob, actually.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 octobre 2010 - 10:24 .

[Jarlof Seoul]

dragonsony09 wrote...

Morrigans God son wrote...

Who cares about skills & what level your warden was? I'd happily start at level 1 or whatever all over again, if need be.

dam right i'd give up my own mother to have the wardan back so being level 1 again would be no problem
with me

i was jokeing about the mother think but i'd give up a lot:D

I too would take a cut in abilities to play Warden again. Maybe not back to 1 but he could joing late in a sequel to be at least a level 10. Morrison the OGB would make more sense to start as level 1. He should be the start of DA3 and Morri and Warden should be two of 6-8 NPCs for the party. Warden should have "extra" plot development optential similar to Alistair in DAO. Morri would remain as important as she was in DAO as well.

[Ryzaki]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I, for one, would not like to see the god baby.

Why?

Here's the father, Derp Amell.


Looks a bit like Jacob, actually.

No. He looks like Ugly Shepard.

[UberDuber]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I, for one, would not like to see the god baby.

Why?

Here's the father, Derp Amell.


Looks a bit like Jacob, actually.

The god baby will be human and probably look like Morrigan, black hair, yellow eyes ect. No problem.

[Dave of Canada]

UberDuber wrote...

The god baby will be human and probably look like Morrigan, black hair, yellow eyes ect. No problem.

What if I made an ugly dwarf?

[UberDuber]

Dave of Canada wrote...

UberDuber wrote...

The god baby will be human and probably look like Morrigan, black hair, yellow eyes ect. No problem.

What if I made an ugly dwarf?

Who cares? It would look like Morrigan, and he'd just be a human, no matter the race, makes it easy if Loghain or Alistair is the father too.

[Dave of Canada]

UberDuber wrote...

Who cares? It would look like Morrigan, and he'd just be a human, no matter the race, makes it easy if Loghain or Alistair is the father too.

Can't be. Dwarf + Morrigan = Half-dwarf.