334 réponses à ce sujet

[Super_Fr33k]

TJ... Gotcha, forgot about that. Fortunately, doesn't rain on my OGB speculation parade. Yay!

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Super_Fr33k wrote...

Err, help me out Skadi. It isn't possible to import any warden other than the main character of DA:O into WH, is it? Therefore, wouldn't it be just like Awakenings, in that an US decision is undone? Therefore, DR must have occurred and there's a OGB?

I think people arguing over canon and non-canon are ignoring that creative writing can fix everything. I think the Old Gods, whether reincarnated via the magic nasty or no, represent something too interesting and versatile to pass up from a story-telling perspective.

Consider:

As best we know, the Old Gods were an unrivalled source of magical knowledge and power, allowing the Tevinters to interact with the Fade in ways no current mages can comprehend. To think that their sheer magical knowledge, as well as their profound threat to the Chantry, is not fundamental to Flemeth and Morrigan's plans seems a little... weird. Here's how we square the circle:

Morrigan never tells us what happens when a Warden absorbs the essence of an archdemon, other than it is apparently fatal to them both. This is not the same as saying their souls are destroyed. What if they are sent careening into the Fade, or somewhere beyond? What if no Old God soul was ever truly destroyed, even when the other blights were ended?

My theory is that the result of a Warden/archdemon fusion is not destroyed, merely banished from the known portions of material reality and the Fade. This explains why Morrigan would seek the Eluvian regardless of the DR being performed. Either she is hunting for four lost Old Gods, or she is hunting for five. I think the US will be explained as merely slowing Morrigan and Flemeth down in their efforts to restore the Old Gods, not stopping them.

I don't believe any BW types have ever said definitively that the US truly destroys an Old God, but please link it if they have. Otherwise, I think we should view the US and DR as merely adding different flavors to Morrigan's story, if/when it resumes.

Riordan is the one who tells you what happens to the Warden, not Morrigan. He states that both the soul of the archdemon and Warden are mutually destroyed. Given that the Wardens know the most about darkspawn and Blights than anyone else, and have successfully stopped 4 previous ones on this premise, until a credible source in game or from BW counters this, I shall accept this explaination as the correct one, since no other evidence or speculation exists to the contrary. Thus, if the Warden, Loghain, or Alistair refuse the ritual and kill the archdemon, that means both Warden and Old God are mutually annihilated. Period. No longer existing, at least as far as anyone in Thedas or the Fade need be concerned.

And in such a situation, Morrigan can't, not through trickery or magic, get her god-child. And since the DR is but one path, where as killing the arch demon through sacrifice is three different paths,  the old god baby becomes even less essential.

Awakenings really is a question of half done mechanics over anything. You could import a dead Warden, but it would be a major handwave, especially if either Loghain or Alistair are both alive to greet you as well.

People focus too much on the old god baby and not on Morrigan, who is the key. The DR is but one subplot, I think. Witch Hunt leads me to conclude that Morrigan is the central focus, because OGB or not, she is still actively seeking power for something. While miffed you didn't do her ritual (if you rejected her), it is not her sole focus. She even suggests it was another potential tool of gathering power for something even bigger and badder.

So, if the OGB pops up in future playthroughs, given it's ambigious nature, it will be only one piece of a much larger picture. Morrigan says the eluvians are portals to places, some beyond Thedas and the Fade. I think for the future potential of DA3, we might be going beyond even the legacy of the Old Gods and all that.

And since there are a signifigant number of people who rejected the DR, I think I'm going to go with Gaider that it is not going to be a canon/set scenario.

[Ulicus]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Morrigan's story doesn't end. But the god-baby is not essential to her story.

Indeed.

If people must focus on Morrigan's offspring, it is far better IMO to speculate about "Morrigan's son" -- who can potentially exist in every scenario -- than the "OGB", whose existence is dependent wholly on the Dark Ritual taking place.

The grandson of Flemeth may well end up being essential in later plots: who knows? But whether or not he carries the soul of an old god can't be essential. The most it can be is a different flavour of the same plot pudding.

Modifié par Ulicus, 19 décembre 2010 - 03:34 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Ulicus wrote...


Indeed.

If people must focus on Morrigan's offspring, it is far better IMO to speculate about "Morrigan's son" -- who can potentially exist in every scenario -- than the "OGB", whose existence is dependent wholly on the Dark Ritual taking place.

Only for male players, though. For female Wardens, unless you do the DR, a pregnant Morrigan does not happen. So even the existance of a non-god baby would be very much open-ended. I am also unsure what happens for male Wardens who never once slept with her or triggered her romance, consumated or not, whether the epilogue states she is pregnant. If a male Warden never triggererd her into a romance or even casually slept with her, a pregnant Morrigan definitely needs some explainin'.

Morrigan is the constant, though. She can't be killed definitely (even if you attacked her in WH, she falls through the portal before officially "dying"). Both Morrigan and Flemeth will be playing a major part in the future, the god-kid or any kid not being essential or necessarily a part of it.

The real dilema for me is to the exact nature of the Flemeth/Morrigan dynamic. For all we know, both Morrigan and Flemeth could be in full cahoots, manipulating and playing people towards a larger goal. Or, they could genuinely end up opposing one another. Or, Morrigan could have been in full agreement with Flemeth at the beginning, but for whatever reason, has decided to strike out and pursue her own goals counter to Flemeth. The old god kid was Flemeth's idea, and Flemeth's sole purpose for sending Morrigan with the Warden, if you believe Morrigan. Flemeth's responses when you go to fetch the Grimoire for Morrigan are also pretty vague and leave alot open for speculation as to what she really is. Morrigan plants the seeds for doubt in Witch Hunt as to Flemeth's role and threat level, though she could be lying about that as well.

I do look forward to seeing Morrigan and Flemeth beyond DA2, as I think DAO and DA2 are subtly setting the scene for their major roles in the future. The old god kid, I think, is not central, and if it was, would really reduce Morrigan to little more than a broodmare to some mysterious being. Morrigan is far too well written and enigmatic for her role to be so minor.

[Who is that Masked Man]

After playing Witch Hunt, I sort of see the Old God Baby as just one element in a balance of power between Morrigan and Flemeth. There are many points in the game where the decision the player makes might give one of the two women an advantage in whatever game they're playing. I kind of imagine it as an invisible score being tallied up behind the scenes.



Never give the black grimoire to Morrigan, +1 for Flemeth.

Alert Morrigan to Flemeth's body-stealing, +1 for Morrigan.

"Kill" Flemeth, +1 for Morrigan.

Trick Morrigan into thinking Flemeth is dead, +1 for Flemeth.



And so on.



In addition to whatever else the Old God Baby might mean for the plot if the ritual was completed, it could basically be a big addition to the Morrigan side of the Flemeth/Morrigan equation, giving her a better chance at succeeding at whatever her eventual goal is.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Who is that Masked Man wrote...

After playing Witch Hunt, I sort of see the Old God Baby as just one element in a balance of power between Morrigan and Flemeth. There are many points in the game where the decision the player makes might give one of the two women an advantage in whatever game they're playing. I kind of imagine it as an invisible score being tallied up behind the scenes.

Never give the black grimoire to Morrigan, +1 for Flemeth.
Alert Morrigan to Flemeth's body-stealing, +1 for Morrigan.
"Kill" Flemeth, +1 for Morrigan.
Trick Morrigan into thinking Flemeth is dead, +1 for Flemeth.

And so on.

In addition to whatever else the Old God Baby might mean for the plot if the ritual was completed, it could basically be a big addition to the Morrigan side of the Flemeth/Morrigan equation, giving her a better chance at succeeding at whatever her eventual goal is.

Well said.

[Ulicus]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Only for male players, though. For female Wardens, unless you do the DR, a pregnant Morrigan does not happen.

Not necessarily. All you can say is that doesn't happen by the end of DA:O.  Unless refusing the dark ritual renders Morrigan barren, the possibility of her having a child remains. Who knows what/who Morrigan did between DA:O and Witch Hunt.

Ultimately, if the DA games prove successful and the timeline advances far enough, I think it's safe to say Morrigan's son will appear in some fashion. The question is how important he will be to the narrative. There are two options that I can see:

A) He's unimportant and ultimately peripheral to the narrative, as he only exists in the DR-verse. He could not possibly* be a companion or major antagonist. He's side-quest material, tops.

 He's important to the narrative, as he exists independently of whether or not he has the soul of an Old God and the presence of such a soul is only one facet of his story. He could be a companion or major antagonist.

The latter would, I think, be more satisfying for all concerned. He wouldn't automatically displace Morrigan by virtue of being important, no more than any important new character or companion displaces Morrigan. And if Flemeth manages to be a hugely influential figure in her own right while also being the mother of another up-and-comer, why couldn't Morrigan?

Though it could just be the scoreboard situation outlined above, I guess.

* EDIT: Well, I say "not possibly", but I suppose it is possible that BioWare could introduce a companion whose entire existence was dependant on a choice you made back in DA:O. That would be awesome. Though, I imagine, impractical.

Modifié par Ulicus, 19 décembre 2010 - 07:01 .

[GamiSB]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Riordan is the one who tells you what happens to the Warden, not Morrigan. He states that both the soul of the archdemon and Warden are mutually destroyed. Given that the Wardens know the most about darkspawn and Blights than anyone else, and have successfully stopped 4 previous ones on this premise, until a credible source in game or from BW counters this, I shall accept this explaination as the correct one, since no other evidence or speculation exists to the contrary. Thus, if the Warden, Loghain, or Alistair refuse the ritual and kill the archdemon, that means both Warden and Old God are mutually annihilated. Period. No longer existing, at least as far as anyone in Thedas or the Fade need be concerned.

And in such a situation, Morrigan can't, not through trickery or magic, get her god-child. And since the DR is but one path, where as killing the arch demon through sacrifice is three different paths,  the old god baby becomes even less essential.

I have a question about these two things. Your premise if I understand it correctly is that the Wardens are the best authority we have on the Archdemon's destruction and that by their understanding the "OGB" can not be conceived correct?

My question would then be doesn't the creation of the OGB, should you perform the DR, negate that premise and tell us instead that there is more to it? I can understand the appeal of the authority of the Grey Warden's on the issue but how do you counter what we see unfold before us. Are we to assume that games that invoke the DR have different rules through which the Archdemon can be destroyed compared to those that do not? Isn't it more reasonable and much simpler to presume that even though the OGB is only one of several outcomes that because it can be performed means that there is still more to the Archdemon than the Grey Warden's tell us?

And what about Flemeth's authority on magic who is the source behind the DR? Are we to ignore that and wave off the DR as nonsense?

Modifié par GamiSB, 19 décembre 2010 - 06:59 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

To answer your first question, i was refering solely to the known mechanics of killing an Archdemon by a Warden under normal circumstances. In otherwords, a Warden who makes the final kill will be annihilated by act, taking the archdemon's soul with him. In otherwords, if you refuse the ritual, only one thing is going to happen: The souls of both archdemon and whatever Warden making the killing blow are mutually annhilated. They ain't coming back. They are gone, done, finito.



My arguement was not that the DR was bunk or impossible. The Wardens have never heard of such a thing, presumably, in their annals. All previous Blights have ended with the mutal deaths of one Warden slaying the archdemon. My arguement was made in regards to the potential of the warden's soul and Old God's soul somehow really not dying, and the AD soul somehow being available for future use even if the DR was refused.



the DR works, we know this. Obviously, if you and whoever your fellow Warden is during the final battle are both still alive, and the archdemon is dead, it means that, at least in theory, Morrigan's ritual worked, and there is a kid running around with the soul of an old god. Riordan tells you that when the physical body of the archdemon is slain, its soul seeks out the next nearest available recepticle, which, if you did the DR, will be Morrigan's kid.



If you refuse the DR, the only way Morrigan can produce the OGB is if there is another Blight between now and DA3 or whatever, and she convinces another Warden to do the job, which is highly unlikely. Or, miraculously, she finds one of the remaining two old gods and somehow manages to suck out its soul before the darkspawn find it. Again, highly unlikely.



Do unless you do the DR, OGB simply does not exist, and is not a viable option as a central or major plot point in the future.

[GamiSB]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

To answer your first question, i was refering solely to the known mechanics of killing an Archdemon by a Warden under normal circumstances. In otherwords, a Warden who makes the final kill will be annihilated by act, taking the archdemon's soul with him. In otherwords, if you refuse the ritual, only one thing is going to happen: The souls of both archdemon and whatever Warden making the killing blow are mutually annhilated. They ain't coming back. They are gone, done, finito.

Ah ok, I thought I might have misunderstood what you were saying which was the case. Thanks for the clarification