334 réponses à ce sujet

[MaxQuartiroli]

Drizzt ORierdan wrote...

I totally agree with dheer here, the flaw in Steve's article is not seeing that the ONLY way to continue ANY Warden story in a meaningful way is through the Dark Ritual. If you sacrificed your warden, THAT story ends there, and theres really no driving force pulling the plot forward from that point. Alistair being King is not even close as charming as bieng an underdog, insecure warden.
That putting aside Morrigan is one ot he best characters in Origins, IMHO.

Why?! There are 4 ways to finish Dragon Age Origins and none of them was more "important" than another.
Many people who did the Dark Ritual should stop to consider their story like the "TRUE" story of Dragon Age, becuase this isn't true. Everybody here is the owner of a story, a different story that each of us built with the decisions taken during the game, and no one can say that his story is more important or must be considered "better" than any other.. And the devs especially Gaider with his already mentioned posts, said many times that they are going to respect the will of every player..

Modifié par MaxQuartiroli, 04 août 2010 - 11:03 .

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Querne wrote...

Not cannon.

David Gaider wrote...

May I put this to rest?

If the player didn't do the Dark Ritual, or didn't get Alistair or Loghain to do it, then it wasn't done. Had Morrigan figured out some way to otherwise do it, then nobody would have died when the Archdemon was slain. If she had some way to go about getting the Archdemon's soul without resorting to the Dark Ritual as she proposed it, then why did she go through all the trouble?

We could undoubtedly come up with some complex Plan B on Morrigan's part whereby she gets the Archdemon's soul but has to do something far more terrible-- but a) that removes the player's agency in the biggest single choice of Origins and would probably be pretty lame.

Not true, the Qunari have cannons.

[phaonica]

Any story that was written that was based on a specific choice would have to be considered non-canon or AU. It's like if they made a story based on the cured werewolf tribe. It would have to be considered either non-canon or AU because some Wardens didn't cure the werewolf tribe. It's not meant to punish someone who didn't make that choice, it's just meant to tell a certain story. Should they not tell an extended story based on our choices in any significant way just because they can't tell *all* the stories?

[Lord Gremlin]

"and remain fair to all players"



Make Dark Ritual canon. Unfair to those who didn't do it. So what? Life is unfair, get over it.

[captain.subtle]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

"and remain fair to all players"

Make Dark Ritual canon. Unfair to those who didn't do it. So what? Life is unfair, get over it.

Make Male Hawke/Warden canon. Same argument.

[SirOccam]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

"and remain fair to all players"

Make Dark Ritual canon. Unfair to those who didn't do it. So what? Life is unfair, get over it.

Even though I DID the Dark Ritual, I don't agree with this. Keep *nothing* canon, support it all. We've got a great writing team; they'll think of something.

[Lord Gremlin]

Look, the only problem here is that God Baby story must be a large part of plot or even central, otherwise it will fell cheap. God Baby basically means return of an Old God to it's former power.

[captain.subtle]

There is NO denying that the OGB story has potential. But tragically its over used everywhere.

There should be some end to this insanity where you have to keep killing the same evil because it keeps on resurrecting.



OGB must die.

[SirOccam]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Look, the only problem here is that God Baby story must be a large part of plot or even central, otherwise it will fell cheap. God Baby basically means return of an Old God to it's former power.

I agree. There's no way the whole GodBaby thing just disappears. Although I disagree that the GodBaby will necessarily be like the Old God Urthemiel returning. Maybe it'll just be a very powerful child. We don't know.

But anyway, my point is that if you made the GodBaby, you should see the consequences of that decision (whatever they are). And if you didn't, then the writers can come up with something else. You don't have to FORCE everyone to make a certain decision in order to follow up on it. People like you and me who did the DR will enjoy our GodBaby-related storylines, and those who didn't can enjoy whatever alternative the writing team thinks up.

Maybe Morrigan decides to try to use demons or spirits to make her child more powerful. I don't know, I'm not a writer, they can think something up.

[Brockololly]

SirOccam wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

"and remain fair to all players"

Make Dark Ritual canon. Unfair to those who didn't do it. So what? Life is unfair, get over it.

Even though I DID the Dark Ritual, I don't agree with this. Keep *nothing* canon, support it all. We've got a great writing team; they'll think of something.

Its not  a problem of the writers not being able to come up with a good story- its a matter of limited resources being allocated to a story branch that some may not even see.

I do the DR every time and would love to see it play out with the Warden in a full blown fashion with the OGB. However, I'm not optimistic, if only going by how ME handled the "big" choices in ME1 going to ME2. Maybe DA2, will be different, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Its the fundamental problem I have with the big choices in BioWare games- they all either come at the very end so you can't experience the consequences in a meaningful way or they get written away as cookie cutter cameos or into obscurity courtesy the passage of time come the sequel. I know DA2 should be different given the passage of 10 years, but I expect the DR or US to be treated appropriately. Personally though, the US is an ending- its closure. The DR is just the beginning of a story- and honestly, right now seeing the continuation of the DR with the Warden hopefully for a bit, is the only reason I'm still keeping interested in DA...

[SirOccam]

Brockololly wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

"and remain fair to all players"

Make Dark Ritual canon. Unfair to those who didn't do it. So what? Life is unfair, get over it.

Even though I DID the Dark Ritual, I don't agree with this. Keep *nothing* canon, support it all. We've got a great writing team; they'll think of something.

Its not  a problem of the writers not being able to come up with a good story- its a matter of limited resources being allocated to a story branch that some may not even see.

But that's already how it is. By introducing major choices like that, they've already tacitly agreed that they are going to have to support the different options. Why would they allow you to make the choice in the first place if 1) They didn't intend to follow up on it, and 2) they didn't want to have differences in the plot? There are several quotes by David Gaider saying that he regards it as the biggest decision in the game, and that they are not making anything canon. If they were hell-bent on having the Old God Baby, then why give you a chance to refuse? Or if they are planning on dropping the OGB story path, then why offer it in the first place? If they just wanted to offer you a way to survive, they could have come up with something a LOT simpler than creating a child with the soul of an Old God who will be raised by a Witch of the Wilds in secret for unknown purposes.

[phaonica]

Saibh wrote...

dheer wrote...

Saibh wrote...
Why should people who made the Ultimate Sacrifice get punished by not having a DLC or expansion to themselves? Why should their choices be invalidated? The US should be a selfless thing you get rewarded for, not get told you made the wrong decision.

The ultimate sacrifice choice not being followed in future games or dlcs doesn't punish you or make your choice invalid. You chose a heroic ending and that's the reward. It's quite literally the end for that Warden's story.

For other players, just because they didn't sacrifice themselves when ending the blight doesn't mean they need to be punished or have the choice they made invalidated by yours.

Maybe you feel that way, but if the US was my preferred choice, I would feel like I'm missing out on content simply because I chose to do the selfless thing.

I partially agree with you in that it could be seen that the DR would be getting "favored" treatment if that story is continued. However, there is nothing about releasing such a story that would cause you to miss out on that content if they allowed you to play through the story with a Warden that did do the DR. If we're so wrapped up in playing favorites on these choices, would we all rather that *all* of our choices were ignored since all of them can't be covered?

Personally, I don't think the god baby has to concern the Warden at all. 

It doesn't have to, but I think that it should. Some Wardens choose the DR and didn't feel the need to pursue that story any further. Furthermore, considering what I said earlier, some choices are bound to be ignored if we want any stories at all to be based on our choices. However, I think that if the DR story is continued at all, the Warden should be allowed to participate in some way. I know that the devs are telling us that the Warden's story is about the Blight only, but I don't think that is true. For a lot of people, the Warden's story *included* the Blight, but it wasn't *about* the Blight.

I can see how it might be argued that if the DR story continued without the Warden that players who wanted their Warden's to be included in that story might feel punished if they weren't allowed, why should the USers not feel punished if the story was told at all? I think there is a difference between the Wardens who chose for that story to end, and the Wardens who chose for that story to continue and then weren't allowed to participate in it. The game extended the invitation for the Warden to join that story, and I think if the story is told, then it should remember that it invited the Warden to try to come along.

Modifié par phaonica, 04 août 2010 - 11:57 .

[Lord Gremlin]

SirOccam wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Look, the only problem here is that God Baby story must be a large part of plot or even central, otherwise it will fell cheap. God Baby basically means return of an Old God to it's former power.

I agree. There's no way the whole GodBaby thing just disappears. Although I disagree that the GodBaby will necessarily be like the Old God Urthemiel returning. Maybe it'll just be a very powerful child. We don't know.

But anyway, my point is that if you made the GodBaby, you should see the consequences of that decision (whatever they are). And if you didn't, then the writers can come up with something else. You don't have to FORCE everyone to make a certain decision in order to follow up on it. People like you and me who did the DR will enjoy our GodBaby-related storylines, and those who didn't can enjoy whatever alternative the writing team thinks up.

Maybe Morrigan decides to try to use demons or spirits to make her child more powerful. I don't know, I'm not a writer, they can think something up.

The thing here is that God Baby IS Urthemiel. Now he has human physical body instead of high dragon, but it's still him. Question is - did he lose his memory? And does human body affect his power? After all, he's not an evil god, he was a god of love, no? I think one can base a whole new game on this story.
Morrigan actually thinks that child won't remember who it is, so she can raise and teach it as she please. But I think we'll be dealing with Stewie Griffin analog here. "Damn you, woman, how dare you!" etc. etc. etc.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Morrigan actually thinks that child won't remember who it is, so she can raise and teach it as she please. But I think we'll be dealing with Stewie Griffin analog here. "Damn you, woman, how dare you!" etc. etc. etc.

Old God Child as a comic relief character? I approve!

[phaonica]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

 After all, he's not an evil god, he was a god of love, no?

The god of beauty, I think.

And beauty, I think, could have a very dark side, too, like narcisissm, or jealousy, or whatever, just for a twist.

[UberDuber]

I really want the god baby to be in future of DA, that was one of main reasons I was looking forward to dragon age 2.Then BioWare stated "we are not done with Morrigan story and that Flemeth will be in the DA2" so now im forced to buy DA2 to see what happens with Flemeth and Morrigan hopefully the god baby aswell !

[Lord Gremlin]

phaonica wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

 After all, he's not an evil god, he was a god of love, no?

The god of beauty, I think.

And beauty, I think, could have a very dark side, too, like narcisissm, or jealousy, or whatever, just for a twist.

Well, I'd suggest he may not be pleased anyway: he's used to dragon body and all of sudden he's reborn in a feeble squishy human shell. It's like powerful mage put in a body of a chicken. You have yourself a Chicken of Doom.

What I can imagine is that Urthamiel will be on a quest to restore his normal, dragon body.

[Gaxhung]

Chances are, by now all players would have at least 1 play through where they agreed to the dark ritual or made Alistair do it for them.

[Drizzt ORierdan]

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

Drizzt ORierdan wrote...

I totally agree with dheer here, the flaw in Steve's article is not seeing that the ONLY way to continue ANY Warden story in a meaningful way is through the Dark Ritual. If you sacrificed your warden, THAT story ends there, and theres really no driving force pulling the plot forward from that point. Alistair being King is not even close as charming as bieng an underdog, insecure warden.
That putting aside Morrigan is one ot he best characters in Origins, IMHO.

Why?! There are 4 ways to finish Dragon Age Origins and none of them was more "important" than another.
Many people who did the Dark Ritual should stop to consider their story like the "TRUE" story of Dragon Age, becuase this isn't true. Everybody here is the owner of a story, a different story that each of us built with the decisions taken during the game, and no one can say that his story is more important or must be considered "better" than any other.. And the devs especially Gaider with his already mentioned posts, said many times that they are going to respect the will of every player..

I personally think that the US is a great ending, perhaps more related to a "Lord of the Rings" feeling. And I didnt say that one choice is "better" than other... I just think that the possible consequences of the dark ritual make that plot more interesting (IMHO) to follow than the others. If your warden is dead, its the end; if you warden is alive and you didnt perform the DR, the only thing for you to do is keep killing darkspawn somewhere else. That I find not so interesting. Again, just MHO, everyone has has the right to one.    

Modifié par Drizzt ORierdan, 05 août 2010 - 01:10 .

[SirOccam]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Look, the only problem here is that God Baby story must be a large part of plot or even central, otherwise it will fell cheap. God Baby basically means return of an Old God to it's former power.

I agree. There's no way the whole GodBaby thing just disappears. Although I disagree that the GodBaby will necessarily be like the Old God Urthemiel returning. Maybe it'll just be a very powerful child. We don't know.

But anyway, my point is that if you made the GodBaby, you should see the consequences of that decision (whatever they are). And if you didn't, then the writers can come up with something else. You don't have to FORCE everyone to make a certain decision in order to follow up on it. People like you and me who did the DR will enjoy our GodBaby-related storylines, and those who didn't can enjoy whatever alternative the writing team thinks up.

Maybe Morrigan decides to try to use demons or spirits to make her child more powerful. I don't know, I'm not a writer, they can think something up.

The thing here is that God Baby IS Urthemiel. Now he has human physical body instead of high dragon, but it's still him. Question is - did he lose his memory? And does human body affect his power? After all, he's not an evil god, he was a god of love, no? I think one can base a whole new game on this story.
Morrigan actually thinks that child won't remember who it is, so she can raise and teach it as she please. But I think we'll be dealing with Stewie Griffin analog here. "Damn you, woman, how dare you!" etc. etc. etc.

I don't think the child will necessarily be just an empty vessel for Urthemiel. I don't think it's something as (conceptually) simple as posession. We can't really know if it's Urthemiel in the child's body or a child "sharing" a body with Urthemiel or a child who has a few similarities to Urthemiel in other ways. It's not exactly like there is a bunch of precedent for children born with souls of Old Gods.

What does it mean for him to have the soul of an Old God? Does it really necessarily mean it IS Urthemiel in a new body? I don't think so. Maybe, like I said, the child just has some extra crazy powers. Maybe the child's personality is affected by Urthemiel, but not completely absent. Maybe the child will be a bit crazy, with this extra voice in his head like Rand and Lews Therin from Wheel of Time. It's really up to the writers at this point.

And anyway...regardless of how that is portrayed, they can still come up with something else involving Morrigan (and even involving a baby) that doesn't mean people will be forced to have done the DR.

[Mecha Tengu]

Shinian2 wrote...

Querne wrote...

Not cannon.

David Gaider wrote...

May I put this to rest?

If the player didn't do the Dark Ritual, or didn't get Alistair or Loghain to do it, then it wasn't done. Had Morrigan figured out some way to otherwise do it, then nobody would have died when the Archdemon was slain. If she had some way to go about getting the Archdemon's soul without resorting to the Dark Ritual as she proposed it, then why did she go through all the trouble?

We could undoubtedly come up with some complex Plan B on Morrigan's part whereby she gets the Archdemon's soul but has to do something far more terrible-- but a) that removes the player's agency in the biggest single choice of Origins and would probably be pretty lame.

Not true, the Qunari have cannons.

[Terastar]

I could argue that doing the US is a very selfish act that you have chosen.

Try thinking like this:

For me to be a hero the US would have to occur without previous thought it is just an act that you have done.

In this game it is not set up that way.

You know what needs done and you have a way out. You can choose to do it and cause others to hurt or you could save yourself. The result of saving yourself can always be dealt with later and who says it will be a bad thing.

I also say there is a far worst decision we all made and that is saving Conner. It may take the OGB to deal with him in the future who knows except for Mr. Gaider and team.

[Lord Gremlin]

Saved Connor? I've always killed this little ****, until I've learned that you can make his own mother do it. Sweeeeet)))
I've never did the US with my main hero. It's just stupid. You join Grey Wardens against your will and are expected to give your life for the greater good? Come on! Morrigan's offer is the best possible outcome. I've tried sacrificing Loghain and Alistair though.

Modifié par Lord Gremlin, 05 août 2010 - 01:43 .

[Saibh]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Saved Connor? I've always killed this little ****, until I've learned that you can make his own mother do it. Sweeeeet)))
I've never did the US with my main hero. It's just stupid. You join Grey Wardens against your will and are expected to give your life for the greater good? Come on! Morrigan's offer is the best possible outcome. I've tried sacrificing Loghain and Alistair though.

Which makes the difference between whether you've ever played a truly heroic character or not.