50 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

True; anything with a real plot is linear. Even Morrowind is linear while you're doing the main quest.

[Sable Rhapsody]

andar91 wrote...
I like linearity.  When I have too much choice I get bored.  I need direction.  DA:O was very linear; you just got to pick in what order you did the levels.  The levels themselves were fairly linear.

It's not that games have to be either linear or sandbox.  BioWare does a decent job of combining the two.  You have to hit the Four Plot MacGuffins, but you can do them in any order your little heart desires, and resolve each of them in several different ways.  Same thing with the overall plot; you can't change it, but you can change how it FEELS, how it affects and shapes your character and his/her companions.  Which is for me what differentiates a WRPG, which I love as a genre, from JRPG which I can't stand.

[Sylvius the Mad]

joriandrake wrote...

western RPG-s tend to be more or atleast as much linear as japanese ones, they only have lot of sidequests to hide the fact

That can be true, though the typical BioWare structure these days allows you to do large sections of the story in the order you choosen.

What you describe can be found in Baldur's Gate, where it was expertly done.  There were specific plot points you had to hit in order, but the game typically didn't tell you what quests were those plot points until after you'd completed them.  So the main quests and side-quests were indistinguishable at the time you were doing them.

That was good design.  If they could combine those two they'd make me very happy.  Set us up with the 4 things we have to do, but don't tell us that there are 4.  Give us 15, 4 of which are vital, but don't tell us that any one quest is vital until we've completed it.

That would produce a much more organic sort of story.

[ReinaHW]

Many games are far too linear, though the one thing I like about some WRPG's is that at least you can get to make choices about your character - male/female, hair, eyes, skin, sometimes race. While in JRPG's it's usually male, male, male or male and wow, the one off female character, back to male who looks very female. And here's your story line, go from here to here while being bugged to death by cliche after cliche and the ever present kid character's who have been on the helium for too long.



One thing I like about many of the WRPG's is having the gender choice, those that alow it anyway, those that don't I can't be bothered with, had more than enough of manly man muscle men to last me a lifetime over these past 25 plus years of gaming, no more please.

And even better, no squeaky voiced kid characters. - "Hello big bad monster thingy, I'm the ever present kid character, I'm going to squeak you to death with my annoying voice, squeak!"



Also Bioware does seem to have a knack with some of their characters when it comes to making them likeable, not always, but at times. I quite liked Alister and Morrigan, their sniping at one another was always funny, still is.



Still, many games are a tad too linear despite promises of freedom in the game. Many tad to cater to those who panic over a tiny hint of freedom in a game - "No hand holding? I have to actually play the game and think for myself? I'm gonna die!"

[Saibh]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Dawn Star is more accurate to Leliana...Ashley is closer to Morrigan than Leliana (who is close to Liara), but I wouldn't say either of them are alike.

I would say Silk Fox/Bastila/Morrigan/Miranda is a more accurate assumption.

Zevran isn't completely insane.

And I wouldn't compare Alistair to Kaidan or Carth. To Garrus, maybe. But not to them.

Like I said, not many will agree. I just mean Leliana, Silk Fox, and Ashley because they are females with an inner conflict of tradition and personal feelings. Morrigan hardly has any tradition to conflict with and doesn't show conflict to as much of a degree. Liara? Ya, probably with what ME2 did to her, but not in ME1. Miranda fits.

Zevran, Whirlwind, and HK-47 are insane/silly and are pretty much the comedy (dark comedy) of the group. Wrex is kinda funny, but it seemed toned down in ME.

Alistair is compared with Kaiden and Carth and Garrus because they are the guy friend with their own inner problems and who are constantly keeping their eyes on you. Carth b/c of trust issues, Alistair b/c of leadership issues, Garrus b/c of hero issues, but Kaiden doesn't have any real issues other than working with you for a while.

Eh, I think you're making very broad strokes on how a character is similar to one another.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Leliana is never conflicted with tradition--at one point she doubts if her vision was real or not, which I wouldn't qualify as tradition. And I would say that you may "harden" Leliana, and then she would more accurately resemble Liara from ME2.

I put those together because they're all female love interests with a superior additude (that often shows to be bravado because of an inferiority complex), a cold front, and (excusing Bastila) use their sexuality to their advantage. So...Holier-Than-Thou Superior ****y Ice Queens.

I'll point out that pretty much every companion will keep an eye on you for one reason or another--you are their leader, after all. And this is BioWare. Inner problems are a given. Garrus and Alistair I would compare for their earnestness, sincerity, hero worship (that is, looking up to you as a leader and friend). Both are highly awkward in their romance arcs, as well as being Deadpan Snarkers with daddy issues. Both are pretty jaded by the world, although they express it in vastly different ways. They both gave me a vibe of "best buddy", but that's pure opinion.

Modifié par Saibh, 05 août 2010 - 06:48 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
That was good design.  If they could combine those two they'd make me very happy.  Set us up with the 4 things we have to do, but don't tell us that there are 4.  Give us 15, 4 of which are vital, but don't tell us that any one quest is vital until we've completed it.

That would produce a much more organic sort of story.

That reminds me more of Heavy Rain than it does BG2, but I agree.  The nice thing about Heavy Rain was that you didn't have to do every single quest point to finish the game.  (In fact, you could just choose to epically suck, but that was a different story.)  You needed a few pieces of the puzzle, but not the whole goddamn thing to have a relatively decent ending.

Of course, Heavy Rain was riddled with frillions of other design issues, but this is one I thought they did well--making it so that there were more opportunities for vital plot points than you needed, and trusting the player's intelligence and judgment to figure out what they deemed necessary.

[Dtelm]

Valarioth wrote...

Taken from http://dragonage.bioware.com/da2/:

You are one of the few who escaped the destruction of your home. Now,
forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather
the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in
history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend
of your Rise to Power begins now.

Sigh,
sounds like the same story as always.  Let me guess, after the opening
area, we'll be tasked to go to three...no, maybe FOUR distinct quest
arcs to gather allies then a rush to the climax.  Huzah.

*Whips out his latest issue of Game Informer*

Quoted from GI...

However, taking advantage of this opportunity meant messing around with the classic narrative structure that has served as the basis for most bioware games: Go through the intro, open up the world, beat a handful of standalone areas, and then do the final mission before watching the credits roll.
"We've done a lot of games now," Laidlaw says. "It's easy to look at us and go, "Oh, you guys are going to do one of your stories again.'"
Not this time.
Dragon Age II has a framed narrative structure, which means that the exploits of Hawke occured in the past, but are being retold in the present.

[joriandrake]

Yes it will be told as a medieval Alpha Protocol

[captain.subtle]

DarthCaine wrote...

I doubt that since it will span 10 years, so I think it will be more linear

Err... WHAT????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[taine]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
That was good design.  If they could combine those two they'd make me very happy.  Set us up with the 4 things we have to do, but don't tell us that there are 4.  Give us 15, 4 of which are vital, but don't tell us that any one quest is vital until we've completed it.

That would produce a much more organic sort of story.

That reminds me more of Heavy Rain than it does BG2, but I agree.  The nice thing about Heavy Rain was that you didn't have to do every single quest point to finish the game.  (In fact, you could just choose to epically suck, but that was a different story.)  You needed a few pieces of the puzzle, but not the whole goddamn thing to have a relatively decent ending.

Of course, Heavy Rain was riddled with frillions of other design issues, but this is one I thought they did well--making it so that there were more opportunities for vital plot points than you needed, and trusting the player's intelligence and judgment to figure out what they deemed necessary.

I think he is referring to the original Baldur's Gate where that was the case, and not BG2, where the main quest and side quests were much more rigidly defined. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

taine wrote...
I think he is referring to the original Baldur's Gate where that was the case, and not BG2, where the main quest and side quests were much more rigidly defined. 

Ah.  OK, I can see that.  Although as a player, it was a pretty big tip-off which quests were plot-critical; they were just the ones that turned up in the opening chapter narration crawls, and had to do with those   Though I suppose from a character knowledge standpoint, the Bhaalspawn would have no idea what was important until round about the end of Chapter Five or so.

[Dtelm]

captain.subtle wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

I doubt that since it will span 10 years, so I think it will be more linear

Err... WHAT????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Uhh. Lets try rewording this...

I doubt that. Since it will span 10 years, I think it will be more linear.
I doubt that it will be more linear since it will span 10 years.
I doubt that it will span 10 years. I think it will be more linear.
I doubt that it will span 10 years, because I think it will be more linear.

My money is on the first one.

[joriandrake]

Dtelm wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

I doubt that since it will span 10 years, so I think it will be more linear

Err... WHAT????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Uhh. Lets try rewording this...

I doubt that. Since it will span 10 years, I think it will be more linear.
I doubt that it will be more linear since it will span 10 years.
I doubt that it will span 10 years. I think it will be more linear.
I doubt that it will span 10 years, because I think it will be more linear.

My money is on the first one.

To be frank, a game spanning 10 years should become Bioware's least linear game ever. So many tiny choices can affect history and perhaps the kid you save in year 1 will be one of your best commanders or main enemies in year 10

[captain.subtle]

Dtelm wrote...

I doubt that. Since it will span 10 years, I think it will be more linear.
I doubt that it will be more linear since it will span 10 years.
I doubt that it will span 10 years. I think it will be more linear.
I doubt that it will span 10 years, because I think it will be more linear.

My money is on the first one.

Mine's on the second. 

One word:

Replayablilty...

[Dtelm]

No no no. I definately agree with the second. I meant that I think Darth Caine meant the first.

[captain.subtle]

Dtelm wrote...

No no no. I definately agree with the second. I meant that I think Darth Caine meant the first.

ohhh.. Ya Sorry. Me too think he did...

[standardpack]

Behindyounow wrote...

Devs have confirmed theres no secret society you join, and theres no ancient evil you have to stop. So already its fairly different to most Bioware games.

So isn't that a step down from dragon age origins? 

[Sable Rhapsody]

standardpack wrote...

Behindyounow wrote...

Devs have confirmed theres no secret society you join, and theres no ancient evil you have to stop. So already its fairly different to most Bioware games.

So isn't that a step down from dragon age origins? 

Since when was "different" a "step down?"  Unless you're George Lucas, in which case it's a bit of a crapshoot.

[Bryy_Miller]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

standardpack wrote...

Behindyounow wrote...

Devs have confirmed theres no secret society you join, and theres no ancient evil you have to stop. So already its fairly different to most Bioware games.

So isn't that a step down from dragon age origins? 

Since when was "different" a "step down?"  Unless you're George Lucas, in which case it's a bit of a crapshoot.

George Lucas is such a sad tale. He ultimately became what he despised.

[Vandrayke]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

standardpack wrote...

Behindyounow wrote...

Devs have confirmed theres no secret society you join, and theres no ancient evil you have to stop. So already its fairly different to most Bioware games.

So isn't that a step down from dragon age origins? 

Since when was "different" a "step down?"  Unless you're George Lucas, in which case it's a bit of a crapshoot.

George Lucas is such a sad tale. He ultimately became what he despised.

lol such a sad tale.  Make legendary movies, make billions.  I wish every tale were that sad

[DarthCaine]

Dtelm wrote...

No no no. I definately agree with the second. I meant that I think Darth Caine meant the first.

Yes, I meant the first one. I always try saying everything in one sentance

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Behindyounow wrote...

Devs have confirmed theres no secret society you join, and theres no ancient evil you have to stop. So already its fairly different to most Bioware games.

You do have options to join the Shriners though and get a cool red hat and a funky go-cart to ride around the countryside in and toss golfballs at darkspawn from.

[AlexXIV]

Vandrayke wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

standardpack wrote...

Behindyounow wrote...

Devs have confirmed theres no secret society you join, and theres no ancient evil you have to stop. So already its fairly different to most Bioware games.

So isn't that a step down from dragon age origins? 

Since when was "different" a "step down?"  Unless you're George Lucas, in which case it's a bit of a crapshoot.

George Lucas is such a sad tale. He ultimately became what he despised.

lol such a sad tale.  Make legendary movies, make billions.  I wish every tale were that sad

I wish mine was.

[Legbiter]

Plot is linear.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Though I suppose from a character knowledge standpoint, the Bhaalspawn would have no idea what was important until round about the end of Chapter Five or so.

Exactly.  That's what I'd like to see again.

Legbiter wrote...

Plot is linear.

Yes, but is the plot necessarily the same every tme you play?  If not, then the linear plot you happen to experience when you play isn't necessarily the same linear plot other people experience when they play.

That's what people are talking about when they want non-linear gameplay.  They don't want any one line through the game to be the only line through the game.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 05 août 2010 - 08:53 .