125 réponses à ce sujet

[Omicrone]

Mattock and the Geth Shotgun give a whole new edge to the engineers and adepts, that's for sure. Soldier was OP before. AR's 140% dmg bonus make pretty much any weapon godly. Of course, it seems that those DLC weapons will be even more ridiculously OP in the hands of a soldier, but think about their defence stripping powers and what that means for setting up warp explosions with an adept. I can't wait to see some good adept videos showcasing those weapons.

[Valdan777]

Sentinels are pretty OP with Geth Shotgun and assault armor

Modifié par Valdan777, 04 août 2010 - 08:02 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Omicrone wrote...

Mattock and the Geth Shotgun give a whole new edge to the engineers and adepts, that's for sure. Soldier was OP before. AR's 140% dmg bonus make pretty much any weapon godly. Of course, it seems that those DLC weapons will be even more ridiculously OP in the hands of a soldier, but think about their defence stripping powers and what that means for setting up warp explosions with an adept. I can't wait to see some good adept videos showcasing those weapons.

Now that you say it, this might very well be the Adept buff Christina was talking about.

[Freakaz0idx]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Omicrone wrote...

Mattock and the Geth Shotgun give a whole new edge to the engineers and adepts, that's for sure. Soldier was OP before. AR's 140% dmg bonus make pretty much any weapon godly. Of course, it seems that those DLC weapons will be even more ridiculously OP in the hands of a soldier, but think about their defence stripping powers and what that means for setting up warp explosions with an adept. I can't wait to see some good adept videos showcasing those weapons.

Now that you say it, this might very well be the Adept buff Christina was talking about.

I don't think so, they are more valuabe to combat classes than any other. I tried the Mattock on my Adept and it was awkward to say the least. The Geth pulse rifle and Vindicator are much better options for an Adept. The guns could be great finishers for Sentinels/Engineers though.

[swn32]

Widow+Mattock easily beats Viper+Revanant. Hell, Mattock itself beats both Viper and Revenant in terms of DPS (even considering the reload time). With Assault rifle accuracy upgrade, Mattock is almost as accurate as Viper and the amount of recoil is same (check ini files). Revenant on the other hand doesn't even compare. Even a Vindicator is more effective on medium and long range, where as Mattock beats Revenant (fired at full auto) at all ranges. Also firing a revenant at full auto makes it even more inaccurate than shotguns.



A fully upgraded Widow is godly against bigger enemies (overkill against smaller enemies). The hitscan nature of widow makes it superior to Viper against moving targets in Adrenaline Rush mode. It takes more than 4 bullets of the Viper to match 1 bullet of the Widow. It's also easier to get 1 headshot than 4.



Ammo is hardly an issue even on Insanity, if you use Adrenaline Rush frequently, not waste bullets and search for thermals clips scattered around (there are enough).



Also note that I play on PC, it might be more beneficial to spam with revenant when using a controller.

[Kronner]

Firing Revenant at full auto is stupid unless you are in melee (or close) range. Revenant easily outdamages Mattock in close range (this is not even close) and is comparable for mid range combat assuming you are used to Revenant and know how to fire it properly.

Viper on the other hand can easily match both Widow and Mattock for long range combat and is better than Widow overall (especially for big targets) and getting 3 or 4 headshots with Viper during one AR is VERY easy.

Mattock+Widow is incredible combo for a sit back Soldier, but I like Mattock + Viper better anyways. And Revenant can't be replaced for aggressive, in your face Soldier. So in the end, it once again comes down to personal preference.

Modifié par Kronner, 06 août 2010 - 11:49 .

[swn32]

Mattock Fire rate = 750 RPM. To empty an entire clip of 16 bullets you need 1.28 seconds. Reload Time = 1.5 seconds. Base Damage = 50.4. DPS = (50.4*16)/(1.28+1.5) = 290.07

Revenant (even on full auto i.e. max DPS), Fire rate = 700 RPM. Takes 6.85 seconds to empty clip. Reload Time = 1.5. Base Damage = 21.3. DPS = (21.3*80)/(6.85+1.5) = 204.07

Im sorry numbers dont lie. Also should I add the head shot factor which Mattock reliably gives as compared to the Revenant. Revenant doesn't compare even at point blank range.

Mattock almost makes Viper Redundant, accuracy is similar and DPS is much higher. Widow vs Viper is debatable. Widow is comparable to Viper in unevolved/Hardened Adrenaline Rush mode, definitely superior in Heightened Adrenaline Rush. Also If you like to expose yourself less, Widow all the way. Whereas if u can consistently pull of headshots after headshots without having to take cover, Viper is marginally superior. Widow is definitely better on Insanity. In lower difficulties, its always overkill and thus not as useful.

Modifié par swn32, 06 août 2010 - 12:04 .

[Kronner]

16 bullets in 1.28 seconds? That is just ridiculous number that does not translate into the game at all. Go on make a video where you fire 16 bullets in one second.

Revenant is much better than Mattock for close range, try it in the game, not on paper.

Widow is not any better than Viper on Insanity, no matter what AR version you have.

[swn32]

Ok, i shall make a video if thats what it takes to convince you. Also note how to took reload time of 1.5 seconds into consideration. Normally u can take down 3 enemies in adrenaline rush before having to reload and you dont even have to click as fast.



And how is Viper better than Widow on insanity? Their DPS are comparable, whereas u have to expose urself out of cover much less when using a Widow. I think we are not playing the same game.

[Kid_SixXx]

I like the Mattock but I don't use it much because it really is overpowered.

I primarily let Zaeed and Grunt use it so that suppression fire actually means something in this game. I finished up the Tali recruitment mission in Playthrough # Baziillion on Hardcore and took Grunt (Mattock / Claymore) and Garrus (Vindicator / Incisor) with me.

For once it was nice not to have to get all of the killshots myself and to actually see the Geth get pinned down as opposed to me keeping my head down all of the time.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 06 août 2010 - 12:20 .

[Kronner]

swn32 wrote...

And how is Viper better than Widow on insanity? Their DPS are comparable, whereas u have to expose urself out of cover much less when using a Widow. I think we are not playing the same game.

Because when I use Viper I can constantly fire (for example against a Scion), with Widow it is one shot, reload, one shot. The reload time kills Widow's damage output. 12 shots with Viper is better than 1 Widow shot. And I hate to just take cover, take a shot, cover again. Boring.

Against regular foes, Viper is better, although Widow is one shot one kill, it is slower. Yeah, you take some damage using Viper, so what when you kill faster?

Mattock is a beast, it may be even better than Viper, certainly comparable. But it has too low ammo stash and you have to look for clips. Revenant basically never runs out of ammo, that is one of the things I love about it. It is impossible to fire 16 Mattock shots in 1 second.

My point is, Revenant+Viper is not easily worse than Widow+Mattock, it comes down to personal preference, I have both versions and can't tell which I like better (probably Mattock+Viper ). Both are very effective and fun to play.

Modifié par Kronner, 06 août 2010 - 12:47 .

[Athenau]

Firing Revenant at full auto is stupid unless you are in melee (or close) range. Revenant easily outdamages Mattock in close range (this is not even close) and is comparable for mid range combat assuming you are used to Revenant and know how to fire it properly.

Uh...no.

I can easily get 8 rounds per second out of the Mattock. That's 400(!) dps. The Revenant peaks at 248. Alternately, it takes 2 seconds to empty a Mattock mag, and 6.85 seconds to empty the Revenant. So dps with reloads included are (50.4 x 16)/(2 + 1.5) = 230.4 dps for the Mattock and (21.3 x 80)/(6.85 + 1.5) = 204 dps for the Revenant.

In adrenaline rush the figures are skewed even further towards the Mattock because time dilation doesn't affect user input, so you can click fast enough to hit the (dilation adjusted) cap of 750 RPM.

The Mattock is a mega beast. I love the Revenant and all, but if you can aim and you want dps the Mattock is the way to go.

[Kronner]

Athenau wrote...

Uh...no.
I can easily get 8 rounds per second out of the Mattock. That's 400(!) dps. The Revenant peaks at 248. Alternately, it takes 2 seconds to empty a Mattock mag, and 6.85 seconds to empty the Revenant. So dps with reloads included are (50.4 x 16)/(2 + 1.5) = 230.4 dps for the Mattock and (21.3 x 80)/(6.85 + 1.5) = 204 dps for the Revenant.
In adrenaline rush the figures are skewed even further towards the Mattock because time dilation doesn't affect user input, so you can click fast enough to hit the (dilation adjusted) cap of 750 RPM.
The Mattock is a mega beast. I love the Revenant and all, but if you can aim and you want dps the Mattock is the way to go.

8 rounds is easily possible, yes. 16 is not.
Of course that Mattock does much more damage per shot, is more accurate and better for long and perhaps mid ranged combat, but if you activate AR, go in and shoot a group of standard guys from close (basically melee) range, Revenant is better than Mattock due to its clip size, when AR wears off, you can still fire for quite a long time with the Revenant. I probably like Mattock better than Revenant, but not by much and they are comparable depending on your playstyle. For precise shooting I love the Mattock and Viper (or Widow, but Viper is my favourite) but when I want to play super aggressively using Soldier's superior storm speed and adrenaline rush I prefer Revenant over Mattock due to massive clip size of the Revenant.

Modifié par Kronner, 06 août 2010 - 01:12 .

[swn32]

I agree it all comes down to playing style.

It's true that its hard to fire at optimum firing rate with Mattock, but its very easily done in Adrenaline Rush mode. Even without AR, it should be quite easy to pull of 8-10 shots in a second. When an enemy is dangerously close to you, and in such case reload times usually don't come into consideration, cause most enemies take less than one clip to die. Suppose an enemy is dangerously close to u, and takes around 8 mattock shots to die, and u kill him in 1 second. The same enemy will take 18 shots of the revenant which takes 1.6 seconds to fire. Revenant will be better if u are surrounded by husks, but mattock is still a beast against husks if used with AR, because u can get the full fire rate in AR (16 bullets in 1.28 seconds). This makes Revenant a very very situational weapon and thus cannot compare to Mattock. I however prefer eviscerator or geth plasma against husks (though difficult, hitting multiple targets with geth plasma is beneficial compared to single target).

Regarding Viper and Widow, like i said is debatable. If u want to do the math, Viper base damage is 81.9, minimum refire time is 0.25 seconds, reload time is 1.5 seconds, and assume aim time is around 0.5 seconds. DPS = (81.9*12)/(12*0.5+0.5+1.5) = 196.56, where as Widow base damage is 368.3, and hence DPS = (368)/(1.5+0.5) = 184.15.

So Viper does only marginally more damage than Widow. This is assuming all your Viper and Widow hit, as well as staying out of cover with your Viper for the entire time it takes to fire 12 shots (which means suicide if the enemy is a Heavy mech). You can also relocate while reloading the Widow, making it more tactical. Widow has a 1.5x armor multiplier compared to viper's 1.35x, making it better for armored targets. Also recoil is a non-issue for widow since its single shot. In Heightened Adrenaline Rush mode, a widow pulls of one shot whereas a viper can pull of less than 3-4 shots. Damage done is still inferior.

Against regular foes, I prefer mattock instead of having to aim with a scope, because its nearly as accurate as viper with Assault Rifle Accuracy Upgrade. I also agree that Mattock has a very limited ammo reserve, but it is certainly manageable. Revenant's higher ammo reserve is to make up for its low accuracy, high recoil, less damage per shot. Its true that you can never run out of revenant ammo, u can say the same thing about Mattock if you use weapons efficiently and look for clips as there are plenty.

So it does finally boils down to playstyle. Theres no doubt Viper easily beats Widow on lower difficulties, but on insanity Widow is godly. Also if you want to do more DPS or use AR more effectively its definitely mattock, but if u want to spray bullets and not worry about making each shot count, then revenant.

PS: Fraps brings down my FPS to 20, making it impossible for me to fire Mattock fast.

Modifié par swn32, 06 août 2010 - 01:26 .

[Athenau]

where as Widow base damage is 368.3, and hence DPS = (368)/(1.5+0.5) = 184.15.

Nope. You have to add the delay between shots to the reload time. So the real cycle time is 1.5 sec (reload) + .85 (60 secs / 70 RPM) = 2.35 seconds per shot, which yields a dps of 156 for the Widow.

Also, the "scope time" is negligible, certainly no where near .5 seconds. Look here for weapon dps: http://masseffect.wi...onry_Comparison, since I can't be bothered to do the calculations each time.

The Viper kills the Widow as far as dps goes.

[Kronner]

I love the Mattock, I just tested it again on the Collector Ship, it definitely kills faster than Revenant in long and mid range. Very powerful gun, I did not run out of ammo, though I was close to it after the Praetorian fight, so that was good! Now that run moved me even more on the side of Mattock, seems I am gonna say goodbye to old Rev for good.

Since Geth Plasma Shotgun is the best shotgun for a Soldier imho (charged + AR does more damage than Claymore), and Mattock is performing better than I initially thought (did not test much except for the vid I made immedietaly after the DLC came out), and because I also like Viper better than Widow (on Insanity, I do not play any other difficulties), the CS weapon choice is gonna be a tough one for my future Soldiers.

Modifié par Kronner, 06 août 2010 - 01:44 .

[swn32]

Athenau wrote...

where as Widow base damage is 368.3, and hence DPS = (368)/(1.5+0.5) = 184.15.

Nope. You have to add the delay between shots to the reload time. So the real cycle time is 1.5 sec (reload) + .85 (60 secs / 70 RPM) = 2.35 seconds per shot, which yields a dps of 156 for the Widow.
Also, the "scope time" is negligible, certainly no where near .5 seconds. Look here for weapon dps: http://masseffect.wi...onry_Comparison, since I can't be bothered to do the calculations each time.
The Viper kills the Widow as far as dps goes.

i wasnt talking about scope time, was talking about the scope time + time it takes to aim a headshot. Even with Widow's lower DPS, its a lot more useful than Viper. Like i said, earlier.

• Being able to take cover, relocate between shots.
• More effective heightened AR.
• Instant hit even in AR, meaning you don't have to lead your moving targets.
• Having to aim less.
• Actually feel like using a sniper.
• Not having a redundant, inferior version of Mattock with you.

Wheras the only advantage of Viper is higher DPS. Since when did people use snipers for DPS anyways.

Modifié par swn32, 06 août 2010 - 02:09 .

[jwalker]

Valdan777 wrote...

Sentinels are pretty OP with Geth Shotgun and assault armor

I replayed Miranda's loyalty mission with my assault sentinel last night.
 I didn't like it much...

When I'm surrounded by enemies is critical for me being able  to deliver
a steady stream of shells, either for stagger effect or actual hurting
through fire. Can't do that with the new shotty, which has low rate of
fire and less punch than the others. Maybe is meant for a different
playstyle. Maybe is my scimitar-fetish talking ...

On the other hand, the geth shotgun really mitigates Jacob's suckiness
at mid range, which is a great thing 'cause I use him a lot in missions
for his squad incendiary and pull field.

[OniGanon]

If you're trying to use the GPS like a Scimitar, of course it's going to fail.

The Viper has higher DPS than the Widow. I don't know why anyone would even question that. Against any enemy that lives long enough for DPS to matter (ie any enemy that needs more than one Widow shot), the Viper wins. Against enemies that die too quickly for DPS to matter, the Widow wins. This really should be very obvious (the DPS vs Burst argument is nothing new in videogames). But if you still can't figure this out, here's a video that demonstrates exactly what I just said (video not mine, relevant part is halfway through):


Assuming the Maddock has normal range damage modifiers, it would outdps the Revenant by a large amount (depending on how fast you can repeatedly click the mouse). That's not surprising. Disregarding range modifiers, the Viper would outdps the Revenant too. Actually, a Mattock from a distance will do the kind of DPS the Revenant does close up. However, while the Revenant pretty much never runs out of ammo ever, the Maddock's ammo efficiency is one of the worst in the game (worse than even the Vindicator). So have fun doing that amazing DPS for all of 10 seconds before you're out of ammo.

Seriously, the Mattock is an amazing weapon, but people need to get a grip. It's a specialty weapon that should be used sparingly and only in circumstances that favor it; it's no Revenant replacement.

Modifié par OniGanon, 06 août 2010 - 06:24 .

[Simbacca]

I agree with everything OniGannon said about the Mattock.  Last night I played the entirety of Korlus with my new insanity Soldier using the Mantis/Mattock/GPS.  The Mattock, even with just rank 1 Incendiary Ammo, would shred the Krogan as fast as I could pull the trigger while under Adrenaline Rush.  Thank god for the GPS mid-range capabilities though, as it was easy to eat right through the Mattock's ammo.  In fact for most of the mission, I ended up using the Mantis and GPS on the Blue Suns mercs and the Mattock with some powered GPS shots on the Krogan.  These weapons are very fun on a Soldier.

A little OT but, the last battle of the mission was a bit rough.  I've read people dismissing it as one of the easier parts of the mission around here, hell no one even films that part on the Korlus videos I've seen here, but it has been anything but smooth sailing for me in any of my playthroughs (others included Vanguard and Engineer, both also insanity).  If I focused on killing the Krogan, the YMIR would flank us.  If I focused on kiliing the YMIR, the Krogan would keep flanking.  And all the time Jedore spamming rockets.  Miranda constantly drops.  When I did get through, it was because this one time the YMIR didn't flank when I focused on the Krogan (and a little Arc Projector usage too).  Slightly back on topic; I did headshot-kill the YMIR with the Phalanx.

Modifié par Simbacca, 06 août 2010 - 06:39 .

[Athenau]

However, while the Revenant pretty much never runs out of ammo ever, the Maddock's ammo efficiency is one of the worst in the game (worse than even the Vindicator). So have fun doing that amazing DPS for all of 10 seconds before you're out of ammo

The Mattock has better ammo efficiency than all pistols and sniper rifles (when the amount of ammo per pickup is considered). How is that "one of the worst in the game"? It's slightly worse than the Vindicator, but in practice the Vindicator wastes more ammo with its stupid 3 round burst, so the Mattock pulls ahead.

[OniGanon]

Needed moar Phalanx IMO. That kind of Soldier is carrying all low ammo, highly specialised weapons. You have to always be using the right gun, and be advancing forward on the enemy so that the title of 'The Right Gun' cycles between all your weapons. If you're not switching guns all the damn time, you're doing it wrong.

As for the Jedore fight, I don't know how others do it but I put the pods between myself and the YMIR (and also Jedore) without actually pressing against any cover, strip the Krogan of defense then disable it, and put all my (and the squad's) attention on killing the YMIR (periodically disabling the Krogan again). Soldier's lack a long lasting short cooldown disable though (unless you're packing Neural Shock) so that kinda sucks.

As an aside to an aside, YMIRs (and Praetorians) are much easier to fight if you hide behind cover without actually pressing up against it.

Athenau wrote...
The Mattock has better ammo efficiency than
all pistols and sniper rifles (when the amount of ammo per pickup is
considered). How is that "one of the worst in the game"? It's slightly
worse than the Vindicator, but in practice the Vindicator wastes more
ammo with its stupid 3 round burst, so the Mattock pulls ahead.

Sorry, should've worded that better. It's one of the least ammo efficient weapons of those likely to be used as a primary 'go to' gun. Compare it to the other Assault Rifles, the SMGs, even the Shotguns after their ammo upgrades, and it falls far short.

The Mattock's ammo inefficiency relegates it to the role of specialty weapon, along with the sniper rifles and pistols, to be used only when the situation calls for it. It's not a weapon you can use whenever on whatever wherever like the Revenant, the Avenger, the Locust, the Tempest or the the ammo-upgraded GPS.

Modifié par OniGanon, 06 août 2010 - 07:34 .

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...

16 bullets in 1.28 seconds? That is just ridiculous number that does not translate into the game at all. Go on make a video where you fire 16 bullets in one second.
Revenant is much better than Mattock for close range, try it in the game, not on paper.
Widow is not any better than Viper on Insanity, no matter what AR version you have.

Indeed. I'd like to see this video where he allegedly fires 16 bullets in 1.28 seconds. I believe this is where this 750 rpm figure comes from... but i've yet to see this demonstrated.

[JaegerBane]

OniGanon wrote...

If you're trying to use the GPS like a Scimitar, of course it's going to fail.

The Viper has higher DPS than the Widow. I don't know why anyone would even question that. Against any enemy that lives long enough for DPS to matter (ie any enemy that needs more than one Widow shot), the Viper wins. Against enemies that die too quickly for DPS to matter, the Widow wins. This really should be very obvious (the DPS vs Burst argument is nothing new in videogames). But if you still can't figure this out, here's a video that demonstrates exactly what I just said (video not mine, relevant part is halfway through):


Assuming the Maddock has normal range damage modifiers, it would outdps the Revenant by a large amount (depending on how fast you can repeatedly click the mouse). That's not surprising. Disregarding range modifiers, the Viper would outdps the Revenant too. Actually, a Mattock from a distance will do the kind of DPS the Revenant does close up. However, while the Revenant pretty much never runs out of ammo ever, the Maddock's ammo efficiency is one of the worst in the game (worse than even the Vindicator). So have fun doing that amazing DPS for all of 10 seconds before you're out of ammo.

Seriously, the Mattock is an amazing weapon, but people need to get a grip. It's a specialty weapon that should be used sparingly and only in circumstances that favor it; it's no Revenant replacement.

This has been very much my experience of the Mattock. People seem to be whipping themselves up into a hysteria about this gun without actually remembering that the Mattock burns through it's ammo like popcorn.

[Athenau]

Indeed. I'd like to see this video where he allegedly fires 16 bullets in 1.28 seconds. I believe this is where this 750 rpm figure comes from... but i've yet to see this demonstrated.

It's from the BIOWeapon.ini file. It's a hard cap on the fire rate, although a little academic outside of adrenaline rush since clicking/pressing the trigger 12.5 times a second isn't practical for most of us.