125 réponses à ce sujet

[Alamar2078]

OniGanon wrote...

Needed moar Phalanx IMO. That kind of Soldier is carrying all low ammo, highly specialised weapons. You have to always be using the right gun, and be advancing forward on the enemy so that the title of 'The Right Gun' cycles between all your weapons. If you're not switching guns all the damn time, you're doing it wrong.

I've got to agree with this.  If you're not always thinking of "what's the right gun here" and if you don't swap fairly often then something is wrong.

As for the Jedore fight, I don't know how others do it but I put the pods between myself and the YMIR (and also Jedore) without actually pressing against any cover, strip the Krogan of defense then disable it, and put all my (and the squad's) attention on killing the YMIR (periodically disabling the Krogan again). Soldier's lack a long lasting short cooldown disable though (unless you're packing Neural Shock) so that kinda sucks.

As an aside to an aside, YMIRs (and Praetorians) are much easier to fight if you hide behind cover without actually pressing up against it.

Last night with the Mattock I had my easiest [Insanity difficulty] fight ever vs. Jadore.  The poor Krogan were getting cut down before they got anywhere near me ... a total non-factor.   The YMIR was taking potshots at my teammates for some reason so never looked at me.   After the Krogan were taken care of the YMIR went down in a combo of Incisor && Mattock.   Jedore was a non-factor also.

Hmm ... Maybe I'm convincing myself that the Mattock is too good???

The Mattock's ammo inefficiency relegates it to the role of specialty weapon, along with the sniper rifles and pistols, to be used only when the situation calls for it. It's not a weapon you can use whenever on whatever wherever like the Revenant, the Avenger, the Locust, the Tempest or the the ammo-upgraded GPS.

I agree that you [probably?] can't use the Mattock like I do on my Revvy soldiers where I'm using the Revvy 95% of the time ; Viper 4% ; Heavy Weapons 1%.

On the other hand I've never come close to running out of ammo with the Mattock and I used it a TON on certain missions that didn't pay to Snipe.

[swn32]

OniGanon wrote:

The Viper has higher DPS than the Widow. I don't know why anyone would even question that. Against any enemy that lives long enough for DPS to matter (ie any enemy that needs more than one Widow shot), the Viper wins. Against enemies that die too quickly for DPS to matter, the Widow wins. This really should be very obvious (the DPS vs Burst argument is nothing new in videogames). But if you still can't figure this out, here's a video that demonstrates exactly what I just said (video not mine, relevant part is halfway through):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nDA22JZV1Y

The video you linked clearly shows how widow is superior. Also against enemies like heavy mechs who can gun u down in a couple of seconds, staying out of cover using a Viper is sheer stupidity, whereas the Widow is a lot more useful. Snipers aren't meant to be used for DPS, we have Assault Rifles for that. I could've downed that commander much faster using the Mattock as compared to the Viper. In Adrenaline rush mode, its no comparison, you can empty all 16 bullets of Mattock while Viper fires only 5. Thus Mattock pretty much renders Viper obsolete, so having a Viper is just redundant, might as well enjoy the high single shot damage output of the Widow and take cover, reposition or evade enemy fire while reloading the next shot.

 However, while the Revenant pretty much never runs out of ammo ever, the Maddock's ammo efficiency is one of the worst in the game (worse than even the Vindicator). So have fun doing that amazing DPS for all of 10 seconds before you're out of ammo.

Since we are comparing against Revenant, its safe to assume a soldier build. If you are running out of ammo for Mattock as a soldier, you're not doing it right. Make each shot count, pickup ammo clips, use Adrenaline rush often and you will never really face any ammo shortage even on Insanity (I've done this). Same with Vindicator, its hard to run out of ammo unless you're wasting bullets. You can easily use these rifles as your primary weapon and switch to Snipers/Shotguns for long/short ranges. Revenants inaccuracy renders it much less effective against Mattock. Even the Vindicator with its lower DPS, out-damages Revenant at medium or higher range. Also the Revenant's DPS of 204 is only achieved when fired at full auto which is by far the worst way to fire that weapon. Firing in bursts brings down Revenant's DPS lower than that of Vindicator.

Seriously, the Mattock is an amazing weapon, but people need to get a grip. It's a specialty weapon that should be used sparingly and only in circumstances that favor it; it's no Revenant replacement.

Uh, it IS a Revenant replacement, because
a) superior to Revenant in terms of DPS at any given range
they use the same slot (how can you use it sparingly as well as keep the Revenant with you???) . Only against groups of husks is the Revenant better than Mattock or Vindicator, making it the situation specific weapon, not the other two.

Indeed. I'd like to see this video where he allegedly fires 16 bullets in 1.28 seconds. I believe this is where this 750 rpm figure comes from... but i've yet to see this demonstrated.

The 750 rpm doesn't come from me alleging to fire 16 bullets in 1.28 seconds. It comes from the games ini files. You can even check it on mass effect wiki. That is a theoretical maximum, and it is easily achieved in Adrenaline Rush mode. Without AR it should take around 2 seconds to empty it usually. Even in that case the DPS of the Mattock is higher. I suggest you try clicking and find out for yourself. 8 clicks in 1 sec doesn't really require you to stress your fingers. I wish I could record it to show, but Fraps brings my FPS down considerably while recording (around 20 fps), making it impossible for me to fire that fast. If i get a hold of any camera, ill record it. Right now i don't have any. 

[Athenau]

The Mattock is Vindicator replacement, not a Revenant replacement. You can still make an argument for taking the Revenant with the Mattock available, but there's no reason to ever use the Vindicator anymore.

[swn32]

Yeah, agreed on that, Mattock functionally replaces the Vindicator. But I always considered Revenant the worst assault rifle (hell its not even one) in the game because of its inaccuracy and how it encourages players to fire carelessly instead of aim. Thus I never found that there was a need to replace it as Vindicator was my no1 preference even then. I'm just happy that Mattock beat Revenant at DPS. Revenant had the highest DPS among ARs till Mattock came along. Revenants theoretical maximum was 204, but practically it was less than 160 (due to the inaccuracy). While Mattock's theoretical maximum is 294 while practical is around 230 (assuming 8 clicks per second).



If you have ever played CS, you'd know that the Steyr Aug is definitely superior to the M249. Similar is the comparison between Mattock and Revenant. In any game, accuracy is preferred over damage output due to the fact that, if you'r accuracy is low you will land less shots.



It's nice to see that the only adv Revenant has over Mattock is ammo capacity which hasn't been a deal breaker for me yet as a Soldier (due to AR). Other classes cannot use Revenant, so this comparison would make no sense there, although Locust + Mattock should be a pretty good combo.



So people who preferred accuracy and were good at ammo conservation, Mattock replaced Vindicator while Revenant was irrelevant. For those who preferred spraying, Mattock doesn't replace Revenant. Although for me personally, it makes Widow the obvious choice at the Collector ship. I now have a weapon that makes Viper redundant for my medium - long range DPS needs.



With Mattock+Widow I had my quickest run on insanity (10:27, only recruitments+loyalties done), beating my Revenant+Viper run by more than 4 hours.

[JaegerBane]

swn32 wrote...

Yeah, agreed on that, Mattock functionally replaces the Vindicator. But I always considered Revenant the worst assault rifle (hell its not even one) in the game because of its inaccuracy and how it encourages players to fire carelessly instead of aim. Thus I never found that there was a need to replace it as Vindicator was my no1 preference even then. I'm just happy that Mattock beat Revenant at DPS. Revenant had the highest DPS among ARs till Mattock came along. Revenants theoretical maximum was 204, but practically it was less than 160 (due to the inaccuracy). While Mattock's theoretical maximum is 294 while practical is around 230 (assuming 8 clicks per second).

If you have ever played CS, you'd know that the Steyr Aug is definitely superior to the M249. Similar is the comparison between Mattock and Revenant. In any game, accuracy is preferred over damage output due to the fact that, if you'r accuracy is low you will land less shots.

And I think herein lies the root of your stance. While I can understand your point about accuracy vs damage output, you're bringing in a *lot* of circumstancial stuff and dressing it up as an objective argument. It simply isn't good enough to pluck a value like 'practically 160' out of thin air, then start using that as the basis of your point - ultimately, you're just making numbers up. The Rev's 'practical' DPS ultimately depends on how you use it, whether you use it in it's intended capacity, and how competent you are.

Ultimately, the Rev's rate of fire, damage per shot and large clip essentially means you spend less time searching for ammo, less time reloading, and less time having to switch to other guns when circumstances call for it. This all factors into DPS, and to claim that all this amounts to 160 is nonsense.

This whole idea that the Mattock runs a DPS of 230 assuming 8 clicks per second illustrates the bias in the whole comparison - At that rate, you have to be reloading every 2 seconds. From a DPS point of view, that causes a nosedive in damage output that, apparently, you simply ignore.

I really like the Mattock, it's a worthy replacement for the Vindi - but there seems to be some near-hysterical followings springing up for the weapon that seem to consider it the return of Christ. It's a very efficient battle rifle, nothing more.

[JaegerBane]

swn32 wrote...
The 750 rpm doesn't come from me alleging to fire 16 bullets in 1.28 seconds. It comes from the games ini files. You can even check it on mass effect wiki. That is a theoretical maximum, and it is easily achieved in Adrenaline Rush mode. Without AR it should take around 2 seconds to empty it usually. Even in that case the DPS of the Mattock is higher. I suggest you try clicking and find out for yourself. 8 clicks in 1 sec doesn't really require you to stress your fingers. I wish I could record it to show, but Fraps brings my FPS down considerably while recording (around 20 fps), making it impossible for me to fire that fast. If i get a hold of any camera, ill record it. Right now i don't have any. 

I did check it myself - and I couldn't figure out how 16 bullets (a whole clip) could be fired in under 1.5 seconds - hence I was sceptical of the ravings that are being passed around about the weapon. (The Geth shotty also seems to be falling into this hole too - some nutter has labeled the GPS rate of fire as 174 RPM... when in reality, it has a similar fire rate to the Katana).

[Athenau]

This whole idea that the Mattock runs a DPS of 230 assuming 8 clicks per second illustrates the bias in the whole comparison - At that rate, you have to be reloading every 2 seconds. From a DPS point of view, that causes a nosedive in damage output that, apparently, you simply ignore.

No, the 230 number includes reloads. Without reloads that becomes 400. This is why people are going nuts about the Mattock--because it's a weapon that offers near perfect accuracy and _incredible_ short term dps in one package.

I did check it myself - and I couldn't figure out how 16 bullets (a whole clip) could be fired in under 1.5 seconds

16/750 * 60 = 1.,28. If you can click 12.5 times a second you'll run through the mag that quickly. Most of us can't, of course. Note that in adrenaline rush it's very easy to max out the fire rate, making the Mattock by far the best weapon in rush. With 50% dilation 375 RPM in rush is equivalent to 750 RPM outside of it. Think for a moment about what this means for a weapon that's doing 50 damage a shot.

Now the Revenant is a great weapon; I much preferred it to the Vindicator because the Vindicator never seemed to offer power concomitant with its relatively low ammo pool.  The Mattock, on the other hand, offers BIG DOMAGE on demand so watching my ammo and scavenging clips after fights is a tradeoff I'm willing to live with.

Modifié par Athenau, 07 août 2010 - 11:52 .

[JaegerBane]

Athenau wrote...

This whole idea that the Mattock runs a DPS of 230 assuming 8 clicks per second illustrates the bias in the whole comparison - At that rate, you have to be reloading every 2 seconds. From a DPS point of view, that causes a nosedive in damage output that, apparently, you simply ignore.

No, the 230 number includes reloads. Without reloads that becomes 400. This is why people are going nuts about the Mattock--because it's a weapon that offers near perfect accuracy and _incredible_ short term dps in one package.

I assumed there was some sort of concession for reloads in there, but this is an example as to why I'm a bit sceptical of the near-fanatical ravings of this weapon - reloads take 1.5 seconds each time, plus whatever time it takes to get back into firing position (which can be anywhere from between nil and several seconds, depending entirely what the situation is), and makes the assumption that there is ammo available to reload. *All* of this uncertainty is somehow mysteriously accounted for by this magic number of 230.

Hence, I'm suspicious of it's validity. I don't doubt that the Mattock is an incredibly potent piece, but I began to wonder when people start claiming it's better at the suppressive fire aspect than a bloomin' machine gun with 5 times the ammo before needing a reload.

I did check it myself - and I couldn't figure out how 16 bullets (a whole clip) could be fired in under 1.5 seconds

16/750 * 60 = 1.,28. If you can click 12.5 times a second you'll run through the mag that quickly. Most of us can't, of course. Note that in adrenaline rush it's very easy to max out the fire rate, making the Mattock by far the best weapon in rush. With 50% dilation 375 RPM in rush is equivalent to 750 RPM outside of it. Think for a moment about what this means for a weapon that's doing 50 damage a shot.

Now the Revenant is a great weapon; I much preferred it to the Vindicator because the Vindicator never seemed to offer power concomitant with its relatively low ammo pool.  The Mattock, on the other hand, offers BIG DOMAGE on demand so watching my ammo and scavenging clips after fights is a tradeoff I'm willing to live with.

I'm not sure including stuff like Adrenaline Rush in these kind of comparisons is a good idea, as the point behind DPS figures is to get an impartial idea as to how effective a given weapon is, and the simple fact that the Mattock's rate of fire depends on button spam means that it's going to be disproportinately boosted by it. Adrenaline Rush is generally acknowledged as being unbalanced as it is.

[OniGanon]

JaegerBane wrote...
The Geth
shotty also seems to be falling into this hole too - some nutter has
labeled the GPS rate of fire as 174 RPM... when in reality, it has a
similar fire rate to the Katana

The number isn't from thin air. The ini file does state the GPS has a ROF of 174RPM. But it also states that uncharged shots have a minimum of 1.03 seconds between them, and the wiki didn't account for this.

swn32 wrote...
The video you linked clearly shows how widow is superior. Also against enemies like heavy mechs who can gun u down in a couple of seconds, staying out of cover using a Viper is sheer stupidity, whereas the Widow is a lot more useful. Snipers aren't meant to be used for DPS, we have Assault Rifles for that. I could've downed that commander much faster using the Mattock as compared to the Viper. In Adrenaline rush mode, its no comparison, you can empty all 16 bullets of Mattock while Viper fires only 5. Thus Mattock pretty much renders Viper obsolete, so having a Viper is just redundant, might as well enjoy the high single shot damage output of the Widow and take cover, reposition or evade enemy fire while reloading the next shot.

The video I linked clearly showed that the Widow is better at clearing mooks and that the Viper is better against a boss, which is exactly what I said before, and helps show the Viper has superior DPS over the Widow.

What I didn't say before and what you didn't see in the video is that the guy did another test in the same room, against the same enemies with the same character, and used the Viper only to strip defenses. He had those 4 mooks down to health and ready for crowd control in 6 seconds, which is faster than a Widow can kill them all. This is how the Viper (and the Mattock, for that matter) should be used, and is part of why the Viper vs Widow debate is not nearly as simple as a lot of people think.

I don't know why you're trying to make a Viper vs Mattock argument, since I don't think I said anything about that and it's a bit of a silly argument. Infiltrators that take the Mattock already have the Viper and cannot have both it and the Widow; Soldiers that take the Mattock would likely have the Widow. The only time the Mattock and Viper are in competition is as the CS weapon choice for casters (who would appreciate the Mattock's lack of scope as much as its DPS).

As for YMIRs, from the way you talk of them, it sounds like you're not fighting them the right way. Here, watch this (vid not mine):

As shown, the best way to fight YMIRs is to have cover between you and the mech's right hand (its right, your left) to block the machine gun fire and constantly shoot it. Both Praetorian fights can be done this way also. In certain YMIR fights this method is not an option due to a complete lack of tall cover. In these cases it's best to just hit it with a Heavy Weapon.

swn32 wrote...
Uh, it IS a Revenant replacement, because
a) superior to Revenant in terms of DPS at any given range
they use the same slot (how can you use it sparingly as well as keep the Revenant with you???) . Only against groups of husks is the Revenant better than Mattock or Vindicator, making it the situation specific weapon, not the other two.

It's not a Revenant replacement because using it requires a radically different playstyle. Saying the Mattock makes the Revenant obsolete is like saying the GPS makes the Scimitar obsolete. No, it does not. The two guns have completely different, valid and effective playstyles. The Mattock does more damage, but has to be used with careful thought and precision, and has to be constantly switched out for other weapons (which does horrible things for its dps by the way). The Revenant's playstyle involves holding the trigger button down and screaming 'AHAHAHAHA! CRY SOME MORE! RAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!" until everything in front of you is dead.

As others have said, the Mattock doesn't replace the Revenant; it replaces the Vindicator.

Modifié par OniGanon, 07 août 2010 - 03:29 .

[tommyt_1994]

OniGanon wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
The Geth
shotty also seems to be falling into this hole too - some nutter has
labeled the GPS rate of fire as 174 RPM... when in reality, it has a
similar fire rate to the Katana

The number isn't from thin air. The ini file does state the GPS has a ROF of 174RPM. But it also states that uncharged shots have a minimum of 1.03 seconds between them, and the wiki didn't account for this.

swn32 wrote...
The video you linked clearly shows how widow is superior. Also against enemies like heavy mechs who can gun u down in a couple of seconds, staying out of cover using a Viper is sheer stupidity, whereas the Widow is a lot more useful. Snipers aren't meant to be used for DPS, we have Assault Rifles for that. I could've downed that commander much faster using the Mattock as compared to the Viper. In Adrenaline rush mode, its no comparison, you can empty all 16 bullets of Mattock while Viper fires only 5. Thus Mattock pretty much renders Viper obsolete, so having a Viper is just redundant, might as well enjoy the high single shot damage output of the Widow and take cover, reposition or evade enemy fire while reloading the next shot.

The video I linked clearly showed that the Widow is better at clearing mooks and that the Viper is better against a boss, which is exactly what I said before, and helps show the Viper has superior DPS over the Widow.

What I didn't say before and what you didn't see in the video is that the guy did another test in the same room, against the same enemies with the same character, and used the Viper only to strip defenses. He had those 4 mooks down to health and ready for crowd control in 6 seconds, which is faster than a Widow can kill them all. This is how the Viper (and the Mattock, for that matter) should be used, and is part of why the Viper vs Widow debate is not nearly as simple as a lot of people think.

I don't know why you're trying to make a Viper vs Mattock argument, since I don't think I said anything about that and it's a bit of a silly argument. Infiltrators that take the Mattock already have the Viper and cannot have both it and the Widow; Soldiers that take the Mattock would likely have the Widow. The only time the Mattock and Viper are in competition is as the CS weapon choice for casters (who would appreciate the Mattock's lack of scope as much as its DPS).

As for YMIRs, from the way you talk of them, it sounds like you're not fighting them the right way. Here, watch this (vid not mine):

As shown, the best way to fight YMIRs is to have cover between you and the mech's right hand (its right, your left) to block the machine gun fire and constantly shoot it. Both Praetorian fights can be done this way also. In certain YMIR fights this method is not an option due to a complete lack of tall cover. In these cases it's best to just hit it with a Heavy Weapon.

swn32 wrote...
Uh, it IS a Revenant replacement, because
a) superior to Revenant in terms of DPS at any given range
they use the same slot (how can you use it sparingly as well as keep the Revenant with you???) . Only against groups of husks is the Revenant better than Mattock or Vindicator, making it the situation specific weapon, not the other two.

It's not a Revenant replacement because using it requires a radically different playstyle. Saying the Mattock makes the Revenant obsolete is like saying the GPS makes the Scimitar obsolete. No, it does not. The two guns have completely different, valid and effective playstyles. The Mattock does more damage, but has to be used with careful thought and precision, and has to be constantly switched out for other weapons (which does horrible things for its dps by the way). The Revenant's playstyle involves holding the trigger button down and screaming 'AHAHAHAHA! CRY SOME MORE! RAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!" until everything in front of you is dead.

As others have said, the Mattock doesn't replace the Revenant; it replaces the Vindicator.

Pretty much this. The mattock is great, but the different playstyle it requires doesnt make it a Revenant replacement. But if anyone is using the revenant at range like the mattock, than you're doing it wrong and I could see why you would consider the mattock a revenant replacement.

[swn32]

@ JaegerBane, I see all your comments have been neutralized by other posters. Thank God I didn't have to repeat myself.

Regarding the Geth Plasma, it is possible to double shot it (check the wiki page to figure out how) which gives a delay of 0.34 seconds between the shots. That's where the 174 rpm kicks in. Although its not possible to actually fire at that rate because of the 1.03 seconds time delay between the regular shots. I have also confirmed 16 bullets in around 1.28 seconds via AutoHotKey scripting. So the theoretical maximum fire rate wasn't exaggerated. Practically, 8 per second is the value for most players.

Although I have to comment on your claim that looking for ammo is to be factored in for DPS. DPS is more of an average for a small time interval when you are engaging the enemy. Looking for ammo between fights does not factor into DPS no matter what you think. Also the 160 number i pulled out of the air, is actually favouring the revenant. 80% accuracy on full auto fire (yeah rite) will give that DPS. Only 100% accuracy on full auto fire gives the DPS of 204, and i dare you to actually pull that off.

Its true that Adrenaline Rush is unbalanced, but that doesn't mean that its contribution to DPS should be ignored. With Widow you can fire every alternate shot in AR. With Mattock, you can achieve its full fire rate. You cant simply dismiss it considering thats pretty much the only power a soldier ever uses.

OniGanon wrote:
The video I linked clearly showed that the Widow is better at clearing mooks and that the Viper is better against a boss, which is exactly what I said before, and helps show the Viper has superior DPS over the Widow.

I have already agreed that Viper has a better DPS than Widow. But what you keep ignoring is that snipers arent meant for DPS, assault rifles are. Mattock replaces Viper when it comes DPS against such mini bosses. Where as widow has other uses which the Viper cannot replicate.  DPS isnt the only thing that makes one gun better than the other. Widow has so many other advantages over Viper that its hardly a choice for me. Also all my arguments were considering Soldier class. For Infiltrators playstyle will change. I was in fact comparing the Revenant+Viper vs Mattock+Widow. Obviously both builds are only possible with soldier so it makes no sense to bring other classes into the discussion.

Heavy Weapons are pretty much useless in the game as they do not upgrade at all. I rather use Geth Plasma to take out shields, and Widow to finish of the armor and health of the Heavy Mech. And If  I want to take them out faster, I'd use Mattock instead of Viper so that I dont have to deal with the annoying Scope shake constantly.

It's not a Revenant replacement because using it requires a radically different playstyle. Saying the Mattock makes the Revenant obsolete is like saying the GPS makes the Scimitar obsolete. No, it does not. The two guns have completely different, valid and effective playstyles. The Mattock does more damage, but has to be used with careful thought and precision, and has to be constantly switched out for other weapons (which does horrible things for its dps by the way). The Revenant's playstyle involves holding the trigger button down and screaming 'AHAHAHAHA! CRY SOME MORE! RAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!" until everything in front of you is dead.

As i've agreed in my last post, Mattock isn't a Revenant replacement. It replaces Vindicator and Viper. Its simply that Revenant's DPS advantage has been shattered by Mattock . Revenant was never my style. Just want to make sure that people know the fact that Mattock out damages Revenant at all ranges. What they prefer is up to them. If they dont like to click a lot, look for ammo, fire precisely then obviously Mattock is a bad choice for them.

Modifié par swn32, 07 août 2010 - 08:03 .

[mosor]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Scions are a different story - it's hard to headshot them consitently with Viper. If you can pull it of Viper kills them fastest - otherwise the Widow wins.

I only use Widow when I'm playing a sniper, you'll want to one-shot-kill enemies - thats what snipers do but in terms of damage output the Viper is the best SR in ME2

Don't head shot scions. Shoot the purple fleshy thing on their back. Thats a weak point, easy to hit  and multiple sustained fire from a viper will take it down in no time. I agree with you on everything else.

[mosor]

double post

Modifié par mosor, 07 août 2010 - 08:18 .

[mosor]

swn32 wrote...

As i've agreed in my last post, Mattock
isn't a Revenant replacement. It replaces Vindicator and Viper. Its
simply that Revenant's DPS advantage has been shattered by Mattock [smilie]../../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie].
Revenant was never my style. Just want to make sure that people know
the fact that Mattock out damages Revenant at all ranges. What they
prefer is up to them. If they dont like to click a lot, look for ammo,
fire precisely then obviously Mattock is a bad choice for them.

Really depends on how you use the revvy. Mid range, maybe it does out pace it's DPS. Short or close range? Not a chance. When I play a soldier, I like to storm positions. Would rather have a fully auto gun to take out multiple people than a semi any day of the week.

Modifié par mosor, 07 août 2010 - 08:23 .

[swn32]

Mattock does more DPS even in close range. Its not as effective as Revenant when multiple targets (husks, abominations) at close range are involved due to its semi automatic nature. But say a single heavy target is up close, u can gun it down faster with the Mattock than with the Revenant. Its a fact backed up by figures from the games ini files. If you are proficient with the Mattock, you can easily switch between targets while more or less maintaining the DPS at close ranges. Unless you are too concerned about ammo or the fact that you have to mash your left mouse button rapidly, Mattock is the better choice.

Modifié par swn32, 07 août 2010 - 10:20 .

[OniGanon]

In close range, the Mattock's clip capacity is more a hindrance than the semi-auto nature.

My comments were mostly in response to this:

swn32 wrote...
A fully upgraded Widow is godly against bigger enemies (overkill against smaller enemies).

You had it backwards. Widow is the mook killer. Viper is the boss killer. My other point was that the Viper can easily have multiple enemies stripped and disabled much faster than a Widow can have them dead (and it will use less ammo % than the Widow in the process). Your posts seem to indicate you think the Widow is so vastly superior to the Viper that no sane person would ever choose the Viper over the Widow. That is not the case. They each have their pros and cons. But, really, Widow vs Viper is a debate for Infiltrators, not Soldiers.

Thing is, with a Soldier you're given a choice between three weapons, and realistically not many are going to choose the Claymore. Some will, of course, because some people just like to be different (hell I was an early proponent of the Shotgun Infiltrator, so I probably shouldn't judge...). But for most, you're either a Revenant Soldier or a Widow Soldier, and by then the choice of Viper or Maddock is already decided. For this choice you can't simply compare individual gun vs gun and come out with a really meaningful argument. You're talking about an entire playstyle vs playstyle, and that's a hell of a thing to try and compare using math.

swn32 wrote...
Its simply that Revenant's DPS advantage has been shattered by Mattock . Revenant was never my style. Just want to make sure that people know the fact that Mattock out damages Revenant at all ranges.

If that was to be your point then you could've restricted your post to just that and saved yourself a lot of argument. I would've thought the Mattock's DPS advantage was obvious and didn't need saying, but people are still going on about the Revenant's amazing DPS so maybe not.

The Revenant's DPS was never the weapon's real power. I mean, up until it has to reload, the Shuriken can almost match it. The freaking Shuriken. The Revenant's power has always been and continues to be its ridiculous ammo capacity, both in clip and total. That and its ability to fulfill Rambo fantasies or whatever.

Modifié par OniGanon, 07 août 2010 - 10:24 .

[swn32]

OniGanon wrote...

In close range, the Mattock's clip capacity is more a hindrance than the semi-auto nature.

My comments were mostly in response to this:

You had it backwards. Widow is the mook killer. Viper is the boss killer. My other point was that the Viper can easily have multiple enemies stripped and disabled much faster than a Widow can have them dead (and it will use less ammo % than the Widow in the process). Your posts seem to indicate you think the Widow is so vastly superior to the Viper that no sane person would ever choose the Viper over the Widow. That is not the case. They each have their pros and cons. But, really, Widow vs Viper is a debate for Infiltrators, not Soldiers.

Thing is, with a Soldier you're given a choice between three weapons, and realistically not many are going to choose the Claymore. Some will, of course, because some people just like to be different (hell I was an early proponent of the Shotgun Infiltrator, so I probably shouldn't judge...). But for most, you're either a Revenant Soldier or a Widow Soldier, and by then the choice of Viper or Maddock is already decided. For this choice you can't simply compare individual gun vs gun and come out with a really meaningful argument. You're talking about an entire playstyle vs playstyle, and that's a hell of a thing to try and compare using math.

Viper isn't the boss killer, Mattock is the real boss killer. Of course for Infiltrator, Viper is relevant because it becomes a choice between Widow and Mattock at collector ship. Also the Viper + crowd control works only when enemies are clustered. My main point is, a soldier with Mattock needn't bother with Viper. I'm not saying Viper is a bad gun by any means, its a great gun. Before the Firepower DLC was released, I used Viper occasionally on my soldiers. I can't say the same about Revenant, that gun was simply not fun. I play on the PC, spraying isn't my style.

Like you rightly pointed out, I am comparing playstyle vs playstyle. Thats why I am not simply comparing Mattock vs Revenant and Viper vs Widow. I am comparing the combination as a whole. I find Mattock+Widow build a lot more effective as compared to Rev+Viper. 

OniGanon wrote...

If that was to be your point then you could've restricted your post to just that and saved yourself a lot of argument. I would've thought the Mattock's DPS advantage was obvious and didn't need saying, but people are still going on about the Revenant's amazing DPS so maybe not.

The Revenant's DPS was never the weapon's real power. I mean, up until it has to reload, the Shuriken can almost match it. The freaking Shuriken. The Revenant's power has always been and continues to be its ridiculous ammo capacity, both in clip and total. That and its ability to fulfill Rambo fantasies or whatever.

There were a few people claiming that Revenant outdamages Mattock at close range, which was just plain wrong so I had to correct them. Revenant's power is ammo capacity and spray and pray ability, that's obvious. Just that i hate to have a huge expanding crosshair and miss bullets. I hate missing, makes me feel noobish . It's less effective too, so unless you actually prefer that kind of gameplay there is no reason to even bother with it. I prefer guns that are burst fire or single shot.

Modifié par swn32, 07 août 2010 - 10:55 .

[JaegerBane]

swn32 wrote...

@ JaegerBane, I see all your comments have been neutralized by other posters. Thank God I didn't have to repeat myself.

The only person who responded to my last post was OniGanon, about the GPS rate of fire.

If you're going to respond to points with 'NO U' then what's the point?

Modifié par JaegerBane, 08 août 2010 - 09:18 .

[swn32]

 [quote]swn32 wrote...
[quote]JaegarBane wrote...
And I think herein lies the root of your stance. While I can understand your point about accuracy vs damage output, you're bringing in a *lot* of circumstancial stuff and dressing it up as an objective argument. It simply isn't good enough to pluck a value like 'practically 160' out of thin air, then start using that as the basis of your point - ultimately, you're just making numbers up. The Rev's 'practical' DPS ultimately depends on how you use it, whether you use it in it's intended capacity, and how competent you are.[/quote]
Also the 160 number i pulled out of the air, is actually favouring the revenant. 80% accuracy on full auto fire (yeah rite) will give that DPS. Only 100% accuracy on full auto fire gives the DPS of 204, and i dare you to actually pull that off.[/quote]
[quote]swn32 wrote...
[quote]JaegarBane wrote...
Ultimately, the Rev's rate of fire, damage per shot and large clip essentially means you spend less time searching for ammo, less time reloading, and less time having to switch to other guns when circumstances call for it. This all factors into DPS, and to claim that all this amounts to 160 is nonsense.[/quote]
Although I have to comment on your claim that looking for ammo is to be factored in for DPS. DPS is more of an average for a small time interval when you are engaging the enemy. Looking for ammo between fights does not factor into DPS no matter what you think.[/quote]

[quote]Athenau wrote...
[quote]JaegarBane wrote...
This whole idea that the Mattock runs a DPS of 230 assuming 8 clicks per second illustrates the bias in the whole comparison - At that rate, you have to be reloading every 2 seconds. From a DPS point of view, that causes a nosedive in damage output that, apparently, you simply ignore.[/quote]
No, the 230 number includes reloads. Without reloads that becomes 400. This is why people are going nuts about the Mattock--because it's a weapon that offers near perfect accuracy and _incredible_ short term dps in one package.[/quote]
[quote]swn32 wrote...
[quote]JaegarBane wrote...
I did check it myself - and I couldn't figure out how 16 bullets (a whole clip) could be fired in under 1.5 seconds - hence I was sceptical of the ravings that are being passed around about the weapon. (The Geth shotty also seems to be falling into this hole too - some nutter has labeled the GPS rate of fire as 174 RPM... when in reality, it has a similar fire rate to the Katana).[/quote]
Regarding the Geth Plasma, it is possible to double shot it (check the wiki page to figure out how) which gives a delay of 0.34 seconds between the shots. That's where the 174 rpm kicks in. Although its not possible to actually fire at that rate because of the 1.03 seconds time delay between the regular shots. I have also confirmed 16 bullets in around 1.28 seconds via AutoHotKey scripting. So the theoretical maximum fire rate wasn't exaggerated. Practically, 8 per second is the value for most players.[/quote]
[quote]JaegarBane wrote...
I assumed there was some sort of concession for reloads in there, but this is an example as to why I'm a bit sceptical of the near-fanatical ravings of this weapon - reloads take 1.5 seconds each time, plus whatever time it takes to get back into firing position (which can be anywhere from between nil and several seconds, depending entirely what the situation is), and makes the assumption that there is ammo available to reload. *All* of this uncertainty is somehow mysteriously accounted for by this magic number of 230.[/quote]
With the Revenant you would have to be out of cover, firing full auto with 100% accuracy (gives a DPS of 204) to even compare to Mattock's DPS. Where as with Mattock you can take cover to reload, fire at 400 DPS when u are out of cover (average 230). The theoretical maximum for Mattock is 290 which people have dismissed because its not humanly possible to achieve, yet you don't dismiss the theoretical maximum of Revenant which is also impossible to achieve practically i.e. you are heavily biased. Regarding ammo, I have already made myself clear that If you can aim, you wont run out of ammo.

[quote]swn32 wrote...
[quote]JaegarBane wrote...
I'm not sure including stuff like Adrenaline Rush in these kind of comparisons is a good idea, as the point behind DPS figures is to get an impartial idea as to how effective a given weapon is, and the simple fact that the Mattock's rate of fire depends on button spam means that it's going to be disproportinately boosted by it. Adrenaline Rush is generally acknowledged as being unbalanced as it is.[/quote]
ts true that Adrenaline Rush is unbalanced, but that doesn't mean that its contribution to DPS should be ignored. With Widow you can fire every alternate shot in AR. With Mattock, you can achieve its full fire rate. You cant simply dismiss it considering thats pretty much the only power a soldier ever uses.[/quote]

All your comments HAVE been neutralized with more than "NO U". If you don't bother to read through all the posts, I suggest you don't bother replying.

Modifié par swn32, 08 août 2010 - 10:45 .

[JaegerBane]

Swn, I'd appreciate it if you at least tried to keep this civil. We're not arguing about the distribution of land in the Gaza strip, we're discussing a pair of guns in a computer game.

My previous response was coming from the fact that you seemed to consider my posts as 'neutralized' (whatever the hell that means) and hence didn't require a response beyond 'I win' - but the only person who'd actually responded at all was OniGanon about a specific issue. Hence, I was pointing out that you hadn't actually answered anything.

I agree that the actual DPS values are in favour of the Mattock - that is to be expected as shoots as fast you can click, but it's balanced as a battle rifle.

My issue stems from the fact that you seem to be picking and choosing factors depending entirely on whether or not they favour your point. You've come up with these magic 'practical DPS' values and you're using them as solid figures. You factor in things like Adrenaline Rush on the basis that 'all soldiers use it' but mysteriously choose to ignore actual ammo levels, which the developers themselves stated was put in a balancing measure and limits how long the Mattock's high DPS can be sustained. You consider being able to empty a clip in under 1.5 seconds to be a baseline despite your own admittance that it's unlikely to be an average across all players.

I mean, take one of your points -  'i've made it clear that if you aim, you won't run out of ammo' - do you not recognise how subjective this is?

All I'm saying is that the only actual objective point here is that the Mattock's raw DPS is superior. All this guff about 'practical DPS' is affected by so many different factors and situations that it's foolish to try and stick a specific value on it. If you want to actually extend the discussion beyond specifc max DPS then it isn't good enough to ignore random factors just because you don't like what they do to the figures.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 08 août 2010 - 12:28 .

[swn32]

I just played through another soldier run at insanity with Kasumi and Zaeed DLCs. Used the Mattock 70% of the time Widow and GPS the remaining 30%. I was able to finish it in 9 hours (skipped N7 missions of course, and cheated for resources). To do the same thing with Revenant run, it took me 13 hours. All factors considered, I still think Mattock is just way more efficient than Revenant. Even with 10% health sometimes, I could jump out of cover sometimes gun down 2 enemies in AR and get back.

Also its not that Mattocks DPS is the only thing superior. Other superior features are accuracy, higher damage per shot, less recoil. Revenant's pros are ammo/clip capacity, nothing more. I've personally never run out of Mattock ammo myself so I don't give much significance to that point. If reserve ammo was 48, then I'd say its balanced. Right now its highly overpowered in the right hands.

Regarding my 'Practical DPS', I've used very reasonable assumptions. Also its just an estimate which you completely dismiss without adding anything constructive to the argument. I'm sure I can clear an area faster with the Mattock than with the Revenant. Thats the point I've been making all the time. Mattock = shorter battles compared to Revenant.

Being able to empty 16 bullets in 1.28 seconds is possible in unevolved/Hardened Adrenaline Rush mode. Why should I ignore things like Adrenaline Rush when I'm talking about a soldier build? That power benefits some weapons more than others, so it should be considered while comparing the weapons.

And why do you claim that I haven't answered anything, when I replied to every part of your posts with reason.

Modifié par swn32, 08 août 2010 - 01:43 .

[Athenau]

I'll weigh in to say that 70% Mattock/30% other is about right when doing a soldier playthrough. I did run out of ammo for the Mattock at a couple of point so far, but they were situations that I could have avoided, like the end of the Purgatory mission where I let my teammates die and spent too much time shooting respawning enemies. And even then there were more clips at the next piece of cover.

As far as the Revenant goes, it's wrong to say that the accuracy means that you won't be getting full dps out of it. Just get closer and hose them down. That's how you're meant to use it, as a short range weapon that works reasonably well at mid range in a pinch.

[JaegerBane]

swn32 wrote...

I just played through another soldier run at insanity with Kasumi and Zaeed DLCs. Used the Mattock 70% of the time Widow and GPS the remaining 30%. I was able to finish it in 9 hours (skipped N7 missions of course, and cheated for resources). To do the same thing with Revenant run, it took me 13 hours. All factors considered, I still think Mattock is just way more efficient than Revenant. Even with 10% health sometimes, I could jump out of cover sometimes gun down 2 enemies in AR and get back.

I don't recall ever arguing that the Mattock was less efficient. It's a highly balanced weapon. The thing is, both the Mattock and the Revenant are dual-role weapons, and it sounds like you prefer to stay back and shoot - clearly, a weapon primarily suited for short range fighting while being usable for mid-range isn't going to float your boat.

That doesn't, however, affect it's effectiveness at the kinds of ranges it was designed to work in.

Also its not that Mattocks DPS is the only thing superior. Other superior features are accuracy, higher damage per shot, less recoil. Revenant's pros are ammo/clip capacity, nothing more. I've personally never run out of Mattock ammo myself so I don't give much significance to that point. If reserve ammo was 48, then I'd say its balanced. Right now its highly overpowered in the right hands.

All true. The problem is you're styling it so that the Mattock appears to have loads of pros while the Revenant has less, which is clouding the issue. Recoil and accuracy are essentially the same thing (since all guns barring sniper rifles tend to be near 100% accurate on their first shot) while you've condensed a raft of advantages (virtually no concern about ammo, scales well on bosses, higher total damage without need of clips etc) into one concept of 'all it has is a bigger clip'.

Regarding my 'Practical DPS', I've used very reasonable assumptions. Also its just an estimate which you completely dismiss without adding anything constructive to the argument. I'm sure I can clear an area faster with the Mattock than with the Revenant. Thats the point I've been making all the time. Mattock = shorter battles compared to Revenant.

It's a reasonable assumption in of itself that practical DPS will be less than raw DPS, yeah. What isn't a reasonable assumption is to simply assume that all the factors and issues that weigh in when considering things in practice all amount to a given number, that you then subtract from the raw value and trumpet it as proof positive that one is better than the other. On a pair of similar weapons I could have seen the logic, but on such diametric opposites as the Mat and the Rev, it's essentially hand waving, as both guns are intended for completely different uses.

I mean, for example, the Rev is primarily intended for close-range fighting. It's significantly more likely you'll hit point blank range as a result. Therefore the double damage modifier is more likely to come up. How would you support that in this model you're following?

The issue about 'shorter battles' is realistically a result of your playstyle, and hence you favour weapons that are conducive to that playstyle. I get that - what I don't get is all these pseudo-math arguments about magic numbers and turbo-clicking, trying to claim that one is universally better than the other.

Being able to empty 16 bullets in 1.28 seconds is possible in unevolved/Hardened Adrenaline Rush mode. Why should I ignore things like Adrenaline Rush when I'm talking about a soldier build? That power benefits some weapons more than others, so it should be considered while comparing the weapons.

You shouldn't ignore it, if you're going beyond a straight DPS vs DPS comparison. On the other hand, you shouldn't be simply ignoring other stuff either, like ammo levels and ranges. Like it or not, all this *does* affect the average amount of damage you're kicking out.

This is clearly something the devs consider pertinent too, as Christina specifically mentions the Mattock's ammo levels as a balancing factor. To just say 'I don't have a problem with it because I'm a l33t shot' is fine for bragging rights but is meaningless in the kind of mathematically sound and objective argument that you're advocating.

And why do you claim that I haven't answered anything, when I replied to every part of your posts with reason.

Because you started banging on about post 'neutralization' and other posters in the same post as you gave your answers. You looked like you were referring to something on the thread that wasn't there.

[JaegerBane]

Athenau wrote...

I'll weigh in to say that 70% Mattock/30% other is about right when doing a soldier playthrough. I did run out of ammo for the Mattock at a couple of point so far, but they were situations that I could have avoided, like the end of the Purgatory mission where I let my teammates die and spent too much time shooting respawning enemies. And even then there were more clips at the next piece of cover.

Yeah. On my current Adept playthrough I've avoided the ammo issue with my Locust and modded in the shotgun slot so my scimitar can handle close range fighting. It's working well so far - Locust, Scimitar, Mattock, Widow essentially means you can dominate at all ranges so long as you don't mind changing guns lots

[Alamar2078]

FYI: The further into the game I get [and the higher level the enemies are] the more often I'm tending to run out / low on ammo.



In a new game with a good maxed ammo power [and squadmates that immediately max good squad ammo powers] you shouldn't run out of ammo. I can see now that there are times where you can start running low against L30 enemies esp. in a NG+ ....