125 réponses à ce sujet

[Gumbeaux Jr]

Soldier = overpowered no matter what.



Mattock means the Widow soldier is more fun! On the same fun level as Revenant and Viper IMO.

[Crackseed]

Has the Incisor being more readily available changed people's playstyles? I like the rifle but I'm starting to feel like the Viper is still a stronger choice due to control per shot while the Incisor just feels like a long range scoped Vindicator with burst.

[OniGanon]

The Incisor has serious ammo issues. Like, as bad or worse than the Mantis. The burst fire is much more detrimental than benificial. Only teammates can use this gun well, as they don't have aiming or ammo problems.

[termokanden]

Gumbeaux Jr wrote...

Soldier = overpowered no matter what.

Mattock means the Widow soldier is more fun! On the same fun level as Revenant and Viper IMO.

Agreed. Adrenaline Rush is what makes soldiers overpowered if anything.

The Mattock just provides a fun alternative/replacement for the Vindicator. It's also a good little boost for those soldiers who would rather go for the Widow than the Revenant.

[Sparda Stonerule]

The main reason I took the Revenant is because I wanted to play the game as all the classes and I wanted access to every weapon in the game across all characters. I never have a problem when using the Revenant. Heck I use a controller and I am deadly accurate with it mostly because I pulse the trigger. Sure it lowers the bullet output but it drastically increases my accuracy. I love the Mattock, but when I play as an adept and engineer I'll be using it anyway.



This is kind of a silly discussion since the Soldier doesn't really have any weaknesses. I merely prefer the Revenant because I like how it feels when I play a Soldier. But if I had to reasonably state which one is better in most situations I'd more than likely say the Mattock. the best comparison I can draw is with the last bosses tubes. I have been able to destroy all of them in on Heightened Adrenaline Rush with Squad Warp and the Revenant. However with the Mattock (with the heightened adrenaline rush,squad warp, and 5/5 assault rifle damage) it was one shot, one tube destroyed, and I can always destroy all the tubes.



Now that isn't exactly hard science however I think it makes a case for the Mattock having better DPS. After all it is a non moving enemy with no weak points to account for an accuracy being less of a factor than living targets. Despite that I adore the Revenant and nothing will replace it for my Soldier.

[Thompson family]

Simbacca wrote...

Widow + Mattock + Geth Shotgun w/ Heightened Adrenaline Rush = a sh!t-ton of terrified Collectors, Mercs, Heretic Geth, and Reapers.

Yeah, that about sums it up. So does Simbacca's remark on the Viper +Revenant+Geth Shotgun.

[ezrafetch]

Alamar2078 wrote...

FYI: The further into the game I get [and the higher level the enemies are] the more often I'm tending to run out / low on ammo.

In a new game with a good maxed ammo power [and squadmates that immediately max good squad ammo powers] you shouldn't run out of ammo. I can see now that there are times where you can start running low against L30 enemies esp. in a NG+ ....

Change guns more often, change your range of combat more often.  If you can get in close and use one shotgun blast instead of 2-3 Mattock bullets, then you're helping yourself out.  Use your pistol for the last bit, use the shotgun.  You have tons of guns...so use them.

[Skyblade012]

I'm not sure about the Widow/Mattock combination specifically, but the Mattock definitely is just another boost to the most overpowered class in the game, and pretty much eliminates the need to have an Infiltrator class.



Sure, the Mattock has less ammo than the Revenant, but it has much smoother controls, and does over twice as much base damage. It may be a semi-automatic, but it has a very fast rate of fire if you feather the trigger, and tears through enemies like crazy. Also, despite the low ammo count, it gets a large enough boosts to ammo when picking up heat sinks that it doesn't usually run dry. Add in the fact that it is nearly as accurate as a sniper rifle, and you have easily the best assault rifle in the game. I will never take the Revenant again, my Insanity playthrough has proven to me that this is more efficient.



I'm seriously upset about the Mattock's long range power. When ME2 first came out, I was thrilled that they finally let the Infiltrator be played the way it was supposed to be played, as a Sniper. But now the Soldier has clearly become superior in that role. It's bad enough that Adrenaline Rush gives them so much more damage, and for multiple shots, which the Infiltrator doesn't get with Tactical Cloak. But now they've been given an additional 80 shots with another Sniper-class weapon. Why bother playing the Infiltrator anymore?

[OniGanon]

Because an Infiltrator has tech powers and Cloak.

[termokanden]

First of all, it doesn't matter if you pulse the trigger with the Revenant, it still isn't precise enough to guarantee headshots even with the accurace upgrade, unless you are at point blank range. Second, every character that has the Revenant has AR and should be using them together. AR completes eliminates recoil and therefore the need to pulse the trigger. I don't remember firing the Revenant much outside of AR at all, but sure there you need to pulse the trigger or simply compensate for the recoil.

Don't get me wrong. The Revenant is a fun weapon to use. But it sure isn't a precision instrument.

As for the whole infiltrator vs soldier thing. I came to the conclusion myself a while ago that soldiers must simply be better. However, when you think about it a little more, it's not really fair to base your comparison only on damage output. The soldier is meant to win there.

Tactical Cloak gives you great utility the soldier cannot have. You can snipe without getting hit. Apart from that, it gives you a safe way to move from cover to cover. Speaking from experience, the thing that kills you the most on Insanity is when you run out of cover and the enemy is close. It's also nice to have a few tech skills, whereas the soldier only gets the incredibly mediocre Concussive Shot.

It's not a competition anyway. If you play an infiltrator, there's not going to be a soldier standing next to you laughing at your damage output. It's all about picking a class you actually like. They are all more than good enough.

Modifié par termokanden, 11 août 2010 - 08:07 .

[Skyblade012]

termokanden wrote...

First of all, it doesn't matter if you pulse the trigger with the Revenant, it still isn't precise enough to guarantee headshots even with the accurace upgrade, unless you are at point blank range. Second, every character that has the Revenant has AR and should be using them together. AR completes eliminates recoil and therefore the need to pulse the trigger. I don't remember firing the Revenant much outside of AR at all, but sure there you need to pulse the trigger or simply compensate for the recoil.

Don't get me wrong. The Revenant is a fun weapon to use. But it sure isn't a precision instrument.

As for the whole infiltrator vs soldier thing. I came to the conclusion myself a while ago that soldiers must simply be better. However, when you think about it a little more, it's not really fair to base your comparison only on damage output. The soldier is meant to win there.

Tactical Cloak gives you great utility the soldier cannot have. You can snipe without getting hit. Apart from that, it gives you a safe way to move from cover to cover. Speaking from experience, the thing that kills you the most on Insanity is when you run out of cover and the enemy is close. It's also nice to have a few tech skills, whereas the soldier only gets the incredibly mediocre Concussive Shot.

It's not a competition anyway. If you play an infiltrator, there's not going to be a soldier standing next to you laughing at your damage output. It's all about picking a class you actually like. They are all more than good enough.

You feather the trigger on the Mattock, because, as far as I can tell, it has no minimum rate of fire.  It's not an automatic weapon, but as quickly as you press the trigger, it flings bullets.  It very quickly outstrips the Revenant in terms of damage, speed, and accuracy.

And maybe it's not accurate enough in your hands for headshots.  I've headshotted with it plenty.

I think the design of the Mattock went something like this.  Take the Viper Sniper Rifle.  Improve its damage, rate of fire, ammo, and stability.  Wait a second, that would give us the best weapon in the game, we need something to balance it.  Ok, remove the scope.  Ah, that makes it all better.  Hey, I know, let's make it an Assault Rifle, that way most classes won't even get to use it!

The Mattock is definitely one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful, weapon in the game.  And only Soldiers can use it.  I really hate SMGs.  If it weren't for them, all classes might still have actually been able to use all the really cool Assault Rifles that have been designed.


And my problem with the Soldier is not really damage dealing potential, it's the Ammo Capacity.  The thing that kills the Infiltrator is that your primary weapon has enough ammo for ten shots.  And, since you're a long range fighter, you can't restock very easily.  You wind up ammo starved very shortly.  The Mattock gives the Infiltrator a secondary sniper weapon to fall back to, and the added ammo usually gives them enough killing power to clear the room entirely with Sniper shots, then go around and restock ammo for both weapons.  While the Infiltrator has to try to stealth around the room, and will frequently wind up in close combat (which it doesn't excel at), or to switch to a backup weapon, either the SMG or your Pistol.

[implodinggoat]

My Widow packing Commando was already a beast with the Vindicator, with the Mattock I'm a God Damned monster.

With the Vindicator I picked my targets fired up Heightened Adrenaline Rush and took lower level enemies down with two quick headshots or whittled away at the tougher ones two headshots at a time. Against lower level enemies I use the Mattock more or less the same as I did the Vindicator except I fire a controlled burst of three quick headshots as opposed to firing two slower; but more accurate headshots.

Where the Mattock really shines though is in dealing with elite enemies who I target, fire up Heightened Adrenaline Rush and then proceed to unload into their head until the Adrenaline Rush wears off. Unloading into their head with the Mattock allows me to take take down a Krogan in a single Heightened Adrenaline Rush. Better yet, since the Mattock picks up more rounds per thermal clip than the Vindicator, I can fire with extreme aggression against elite enemies without worrying too much about running out of ammo so long as I show more restraint when I'm taking down their low level flunkies.

The Revenant still has the edge when you're unloading into swarms of husks and the like; but if you're actually aiming, it can't touch the Mattock.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 11 août 2010 - 01:08 .

[implodinggoat]

OniGanon wrote...

Because an Infiltrator has tech powers and Cloak.

When it comes to laying down weapon damage an Infiltrator isn't touching my Widow packing Soldier; but then that's not what they were designed to do.

I'd say the biggest upside for the Infiltrator is the ability to get your ass out of insane peril with your cloak.

I'll give you an example.  I was on the Derelict Reaper with my Infiltrator, my squad was down, my shields were down, I had four or five husks closing in on me and two Scions plodding towards me behind them.   Now if I were playing as a Soldier, I would have been dead, end of story; but with my Infiltrator I was able to fire up my cloak and high tail my ass back to a safe distance at which point I used incineration blast to take down the husks armor before polishing them off with my Locust SMG.  Then I fired up my assasination cloak and laughed with demonic glee as two stupified Scions were dropped by an invisible beast packing a Widow.

Point being, both classes have their strengths and weaknesses and their both fun to play in their own way.

[termokanden]

Skyblade012 wrote...

You feather the trigger on the Mattock, because, as far as I can tell, it has no minimum rate of fire.  It's not an automatic weapon, but as quickly as you press the trigger, it flings bullets.  It very quickly outstrips the Revenant in terms of damage, speed, and accuracy.

Sure. But I was talking about the Revenant.

I still think the Revenant is a fun weapon and not completely replaced by the Mattock. I wouldn't choose it over the Widow anymore, but at least it still has insane ammo capacity and is still fun to use.

And maybe it's not accurate enough in your hands for headshots.  I've headshotted with it plenty.

Read my post next time instead of trying to insult my ability to aim. The Mattock is precise with the accuracy upgrade, the Revenant still isn't.

I think the design of the Mattock went something like this.  Take the Viper Sniper Rifle.  Improve its damage, rate of fire, ammo, and stability.

The Viper does more damage per shot. It just has a considerably lower rate of fire. It's probably more ammo efficient too with its ~30 more damage per shot and even more for headshots.

The Mattock is definitely one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful, weapon in the game.  And only Soldiers can use it.  I really hate SMGs.  If it weren't for them, all classes might still have actually been able to use all the really cool Assault Rifles that have been designed.

Every class can use the Mattock eventually.

Yes the Mattock is somewhat overpowered. But I don't see how it ruins the game. It's a single-player game. If you really hate something, make it a house-rule that it doesn't exist. Or pick it as a bonus weapon.

Modifié par termokanden, 11 août 2010 - 01:53 .

[Urazz]

termokanden wrote...

First of all, it doesn't matter if you pulse the trigger with the Revenant, it still isn't precise enough to guarantee headshots even with the accurace upgrade, unless you are at point blank range. Second, every character that has the Revenant has AR and should be using them together. AR completes eliminates recoil and therefore the need to pulse the trigger. I don't remember firing the Revenant much outside of AR at all, but sure there you need to pulse the trigger or simply compensate for the recoil.

Don't get me wrong. The Revenant is a fun weapon to use. But it sure isn't a precision instrument.

As for the whole infiltrator vs soldier thing. I came to the conclusion myself a while ago that soldiers must simply be better. However, when you think about it a little more, it's not really fair to base your comparison only on damage output. The soldier is meant to win there.

Tactical Cloak gives you great utility the soldier cannot have. You can snipe without getting hit. Apart from that, it gives you a safe way to move from cover to cover. Speaking from experience, the thing that kills you the most on Insanity is when you run out of cover and the enemy is close. It's also nice to have a few tech skills, whereas the soldier only gets the incredibly mediocre Concussive Shot.

It's not a competition anyway. If you play an infiltrator, there's not going to be a soldier standing next to you laughing at your damage output. It's all about picking a class you actually like. They are all more than good enough.

Exactly.  With the Revenant, you really don't worry about headshots too much unless they are close and you have the assault rifle accuracy upgrade.  At medium range you are basically aiming  for a general body shot to whittle them down fairly quickly when it comes to regular troops you are facing.  The Revenant has enough ammo and does enough damage outside of a headshot that that it is worth doing that at medium range.

And the infiltrator actually does more dps with the widow compared to the soldier since he doesn't have to wait for adrenaline rush to go back to shooting.

Now with the Mattock, it goes great with the widow on a soldier since when you choose a soldier, you are basically choosing the play style of doing burst dps. The Mattock itself is almost overpowered but it's limited ammo prevent that so you are unable to maintain the full dps you can maintain with it.

[ezrafetch]

Skyblade012 wrote...

You feather the trigger on the Mattock, because, as far as I can tell, it has no minimum rate of fire.  It's not an automatic weapon, but as quickly as you press the trigger, it flings bullets.  It very quickly outstrips the Revenant in terms of damage, speed, and accuracy.

The wiki lists the ROF at 750 RPM, so it technically has a limit on its ROF.  However, given that basically no one can click/press the trigger that fast (750 RPM is actually even rather fast for a real automatic assault rifle, if I remember correctly), its ROF is essentially as fast as you can click it...

Modifié par ezrafetch, 11 août 2010 - 03:16 .

[OniGanon]

750RPM isn't entirely out of the realm of possibility. I'm not the most amazing gamer around and I'm pretty confident I can hit a speed of 600RPM (10 clicks per second) pretty consistently with my Mario Party Enhanced Forced Hand Spasms of Button Mashing. For a little while anyway, then my hand would die.



Whether the game can register input that fast, or even if my mouse can for that matter, I don't know.

[swn32]

Yep the game can register input that fast. I pulled it off using autohotkey script. It fires even faster than Revenant in that case. Its still a beast at 8-10 clicks per second.

[Alamar2078]

ezrafetch wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

FYI: The further into the game I get [and the higher level the enemies are] the more often I'm tending to run out / low on ammo.

In a new game with a good maxed ammo power [and squadmates that immediately max good squad ammo powers] you shouldn't run out of ammo. I can see now that there are times where you can start running low against L30 enemies esp. in a NG+ ....

Change guns more often, change your range of combat more often.  If you can get in close and use one shotgun blast instead of 2-3 Mattock bullets, then you're helping yourself out.  Use your pistol for the last bit, use the shotgun.  You have tons of guns...so use them.

I certainly agree and that's how I get through levels.  I have never died due to lack of ammo and if I "run low" I can usually scrounge some during a fight [like Kasumi's Loyalty quest].  By the time I run low though the fight is usually over ... a single pistol shot, power from squadmate, etc. is all it takes.

When I get around to NG+ with my equipment I may have further thoughts.

[swn32]

Also did anyone else notice how deadly squad mates with Mattocks are?

[Epic777]

swn32 wrote...

Also did anyone else notice how deadly squad mates with Mattocks are?

Yep, grunt with inferno ammo becomes uber deadly

[Urazz]

Valdan777 wrote...

I'm about to start a NG+ with that build and go for zero deaths. I would argue that it terms of pure effectiveness this build beats the viper/revenant soldier as its less likely to die, and clears enemies faster. It also makes boss fights a joke. fully upgraded widow is god.

Both builds have their disadvantages. viper/revenant is more likely to die but ammo is never really an issue.  With the widow/mattock, you are less likely to die but your more likely to run out of ammo (less so than compared to using widow/vindicator).  Both builds also focus on different ways to do damage.  The widow/mattock combo is more for doing alot of damage in a short period of time while the viper/revenant is designed for more sustained damage over a period of time.

Personally, I feel the addition of the mattock makes choosing the widow as a soldier a much more equal choice compared to choosing the revenant since the ammo weakness of the widow is a bit less now.  Not to mention the mattock is better suited for the playstyle of the widow than the vindicator since the mattock is capable of much higher burst dps than the vindicator.

swn32 wrote...

Also did anyone else notice how deadly squad mates with Mattocks are?

Yes, all the new guns are deadly with the new squadmates actually.  The geth shotgun is great for Jacob, Jack, and Tali.  And Garrus, Zaeed, Samara, and Grunt are freaking deadly with the mattock (though not as deadly as equiping them with revenants in the save game editor).

And I've tried using that pistol on squaddies that use those and SMGs, it's good but it doesn't make me want to use a pistol on a squaddie over the locust SMG.

Modifié par Urazz, 11 août 2010 - 07:46 .

[Athenau]

You don't need to change guns all the time to prevent the Mattock from running out. Just don't use it exclusively. IME it's enough to use one other weapon when the situation calls for it. Just occasionally sniping dudes is enough for me to use the Mattock for the rest of the time, and, hell, it's something that I would do anyway since there are plenty of situations where the scope comes in handy.

The Viper does more damage per shot. It just has a considerably lower rate of fire. It's probably more ammo efficient too with its ~30 more damage per shot and even more for headshots.

Viper gets 4 minimum ammo per pickup. Mattock gets 11, which makes it more efficient in the long run.

Modifié par Athenau, 11 août 2010 - 10:07 .

[termokanden]

Just too bad infiltrators are stuck with the Mantis and Viper if going for the Mattock. That's the part that's somewhat unfair. A soldier can get the Mattock and the Widow.

I'm still glad I bought the weapons pack though. Happy they replaced the Vindicator with something more fun. The other two weapons are fun too. The GPS (yes, the Global Positioning System) looks amazing and does insane damage if you can manage to hit more than one enemy.

Modifié par termokanden, 11 août 2010 - 10:15 .

[Skyblade012]

termokanden wrote...

Just too bad infiltrators are stuck with the Mantis and Viper if going for the Mattock. That's the part that's somewhat unfair. A soldier can get the Mattock and the Widow.

I'm still glad I bought the weapons pack though. Happy they replaced the Vindicator with something more fun. The other two weapons are fun too. The GPS (yes, the Global Positioning System) looks amazing and does insane damage if you can manage to hit more than one enemy.

Apologies for misreading your earlier post.

And, yeah, I agree.  The OP thing about Soldiers and the Mattock is that they are the only class that gets it as a default, and they can add another super-weapon to it.  Every other class has to give something up to use it.