104 réponses à ce sujet

[ThisIsMadness91]

Shandepared wrote...

If you don't have the stomach to be renegade then you shouldn't have ever accepted the offer to become a Spectre.

Wow, that's...dumb. Spectre's don't have to intimidate their way to victory, you know.

And Bluko, that picture is so saved!

[AresXX7]

I think if they would have let the neutral option be exactly just that, and not a renegade option, things would have gone a lot smoother in the long run.

what I mean is, in ME2, it would have made more sense to me if the council was multicultural with a human in it, and without the hate from the other species, if you chose the concentrate on Sovereign option - for the paragon crowd

and have it dominated by humans & having the other species distrust/hate humans if you chose the screw the council option - for the renegade crowd

but, I'm sure that would have been asking too much

[StrawberryViking]

AriesXX7 wrote...

I think if they would have let the neutral option be exactly just that, and not a renegade option, things would have gone a lot smoother in the long run.

what I mean is, in ME2, it would have made more sense to me if the council was multicultural with a human in it, and without the hate from the other species, if you chose the concentrate on Sovereign option - for the paragon crowd

and have it dominated by humans & having the other species distrust/hate humans if you chose the screw the council option - for the renegade crowd

but, I'm sure that would have been asking too much

Actually, what would have made more sense was for the galactic council (mind you, the 3 most important figures in politics) to have successors. You think they would (I mean the president of the US has an almost endless line of succession, why not them?) But I would have prefered the neutral option to have a brand new council, with representatives from the council races (maybe they should give one to the volus while their at it) and humans.

Modifié par StrawberryViking, 05 août 2010 - 04:02 .

[thq95]

Myrmedus wrote...

Kronner wrote...

redplague wrote...

I don't agree with the makers of the game that letting the council die is a renegade act. I would happily see the 3 most senior politicians die from any government if the only way to save them was to sacrifice thousands of other people.

Not just Council.
10.000 people are on board of the Destiny Ascension.

That's not made clear AT ALL when making the decision.

Yeah, it really wasn't made clear until ME2.  I bet it was a pretty even sacrifice either way you chose though, human lives versus alien lives.

[fantasypisces]

I'm the same way, I actually have to try "really hard" to get renegade points, because most times I am always picking paragon, and not because it is the paragon choice, but because that is how I would respond.



My friends always make fun of me that I have such a hard time doing it, I couldn't even play the "mean evil guy" in Dragon Age, just couldn't do it unless I was forcing myself.



I'm forcing myself right now to do a renegade run through ME1 and 2 just so I can see the differences for ME3, but it is really difficult.

[AresXX7]

fantasypisces wrote...

I'm the same way, I actually have to try "really hard" to get renegade points, because most times I am always picking paragon, and not because it is the paragon choice, but because that is how I would respond.

My friends always make fun of me that I have such a hard time doing it, I couldn't even play the "mean evil guy" in Dragon Age, just couldn't do it unless I was forcing myself.

I'm forcing myself right now to do a renegade run through ME1 and 2 just so I can see the differences for ME3, but it is really difficult.

I wish you the best of luck on it, haven't been able to sum up the will to do it myself yet
but i have been choosing the renegade option with enemies/bad NPC's, so I'm halfway there

[Thatguy38]

Luc0s wrote...

I find it honestly hard to play as a Renegade sometimes. I always end up Paragon. I did do an intentional Renegade run-through on both games (ME and ME2) just so I can see if it makes any difference in the end of ME3. But in those moments that you have to make big choices I never ever enjoyed picking the Renegade options (letting the Rachni go extinct, letting Wrex die, letting the council die, letting the colonists on that meteor die, giving the Collector base to TIM and more). I naturally always want to pick the Paragon option at those points!

Damn, I'm such a goody two-shoes. >_<

Even when I played as a renegade, I ended up more middle of the road, because there are just some things that I CANNOT do. (like be mean to Tali).

[Thatguy38]

Myrmedus wrote...

I'm the same, and I have the same issue in KotOR aswell. I always want to "fall" to the dark side but in KotOR games you have to actually "push" yourself to the dark side and I can't do it. I did let the Council die though as I didn't actually view it as a Renegade choice, same with the Collector Base. I find the end-game choices are completely and UTTERLY morally ambiguous.

I'm Paragon but I'm also pragmatic.

Never went Sith in KOTOR 1, but it is SO much fun being Sith in KoToR 2, Force Crush rules .

[Thatguy38]

Luc0s wrote...

It's kinda strange that I'm such a goody two-shoes in the Mass Effect series, because I don't have any problem playing an evil a-hole in any other RPG game such as Fable, Fable 2, Oblivion, Fallout 3 and other RPG's that has some sort of a morality-system involved. I actually LOVE to play evil in all those games, but not in Mass Effect! Sure, I simply love some of the Renegade dialogue, but when it comes to the big choices, I just simply can't enjoy making the Renegade decisions!

I know that I'm making multiple posts, but  I haven't been on in a while. I agree for the most part. Being evil in Oblivion is fun, especially with the Dark Brotherhood storyline. Only other game I absolutely can't be evil in (and I have tried) is Fallout 3. It justs takes away from the game somehow to be a completely ruthless scumbag.

[krasnoarmeets]

thq95 wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Kronner wrote...

redplague wrote...

I don't agree with the makers of the game that letting the council die is a renegade act. I would happily see the 3 most senior politicians die from any government if the only way to save them was to sacrifice thousands of other people.

Not just Council.
10.000 people are on board of the Destiny Ascension.

That's not made clear AT ALL when making the decision.

Yeah, it really wasn't made clear until ME2.  I bet it was a pretty even sacrifice either way you chose though, human lives versus alien lives.

For me on my first play through it wasn't at all about human lives versus alien lives - it was about doing the expedient thing, what was best tactically, militarily and not for humans, but for the galaxy.

[LPPrince]

People tend to forget that it wasn't just the Council you saved, but 10K innocents on the Destiny Ascension. Turns out that if you save the DA, less people died overall than if you sacrificed the DA to the geth.



So the, "Let 3 people die so thousands can live" argument is really invalid.

[Dean_the_Young]

LPPrince wrote...

People tend to forget that it wasn't just the Council you saved, but 10K innocents on the Destiny Ascension. Turns out that if you save the DA, less people died overall than if you sacrificed the DA to the geth.

So the, "Let 3 people die so thousands can live" argument is really invalid.

That's metagaming in the extreme. When you have the choice to make, more than just the Destiny Ascension crew and Alliance personnel hang in the balance: the entire galaxy is at risk if you don't stop Sovereign. The temporary salvation of the DA 10k comes at the price of just having them and billions more die hours shortly after because you weakened yourself against Sovereign, you (except with the metagaming of a player) you have no guarantee of beating in the first place.

[Sparda Stonerule]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

People tend to forget that it wasn't just the Council you saved, but 10K innocents on the Destiny Ascension. Turns out that if you save the DA, less people died overall than if you sacrificed the DA to the geth.

So the, "Let 3 people die so thousands can live" argument is really invalid.

That's metagaming in the extreme. When you have the choice to make, more than just the Destiny Ascension crew and Alliance personnel hang in the balance: the entire galaxy is at risk if you don't stop Sovereign. The temporary salvation of the DA 10k comes at the price of just having them and billions more die hours shortly after because you weakened yourself against Sovereign, you (except with the metagaming of a player) you have no guarantee of beating in the first place.

Except that if you save the Destiny Ascension that would mean you go all out on the geth forces around and completely demolish them before the arms open. To me when I made my choice the first time I carefully weighed my options. I didn't want my forces to hang back and let everyone else die. I also assumed Sovereign couldn't withstand that much sustained fire or else he wouldn't have closed the arms. The Alliance Fleet effectively saves the day in that battle. When you have a chance to save the governing body for half the Galaxy, you should probably consider doing it.

Besides if there is a chance to save lives any soldier knows that it's a good cause to die for. Everyone on all of those ships knows the stakes and they will gladly follow orders. Then what do I find out? That had I not saved that huge ship many more people would have died and our governing body would be lost.

Saving the Ascension was the practical and logical choice for me. The only reason some people didn't save it was because some people focus on the target and ignore everything else. So therefore it's practical and logical to them.

I have to add one more thing. Sovereign can't open the Relays without Saren. That's why Sovereign was there in the first place. The Keepers couldn't do it, so Sovereign needed another option. Vigil explains as much. So when I made the choice the first time I THOUGHT I had put down Saren and I knew I could take out any Geth that came to try and open the Relays. So when Joker informed me that I could bring the fleet in early and save a ship, or hang back and wait for the battle to die down I chose to bring them in fast.

Shand you complain about Meta gaming but the only way to know that Alliance will take any casualties is through Meta Gaming. A hypocrite is you. Neither side knows how many people will be lost given the actions, so I chose to save the people who attempt to bring the galaxy together.

Modifié par Sparda Stonerule, 05 août 2010 - 12:59 .

[Kappa Neko]

My main Shep is a total paragon. The paragon choices reflect my soft personality. Ok, I'm actually a pacifist and hate military institutions of any kind in real life. But if I somehow ended up in the position Shepard is in, the paragon approach is what I would do. In ME1 I earned more renegade points because sometimes the council pissed me off. In ME2, I was a bit lazy and automatically chose the paragon option (This dialogue system so needs a change!).

I personally have the utmost respect for all living creatures and nature in general. Yes, I'm a tree hugger! I pick up snails from the sidewalk and put them somewhere safe and that sort of thing ;0)

So playing paragon is natural to me. I tried to avoid bloodshed at all cost playing Shepard. I let everybody live. Because I strongly despise the idea that some people are so evil killing them is a good thing. Some people might deserve to die, that doesn't mean you have the right to kill them. All life is sacred. Laugh at that if you like.

So my main femShep and my second manShep are both paragons.

Right now I'm playing as a total renegade just to have experienced that once. And I gotta say, it's real hard to bear shooting people and insulting them all the time. I really hate this Shepard *g* But I'll go through with it, be as mean as possible, then import this horrible man into ME2 and bear it till the end.

Not all the renegade choices are morally dubious. Some I can even systematize with. But I'll never enjoy being mean. Not in this game anyway. Ok, I played nice in Fable II as well *g*

I have to say, though, that the paragon Shep is a bit too nice sometimes.

[Myrmedus]

thq95 wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Kronner wrote...

redplague wrote...

I don't agree with the makers of the game that letting the council die is a renegade act. I would happily see the 3 most senior politicians die from any government if the only way to save them was to sacrifice thousands of other people.

Not just Council.
10.000 people are on board of the Destiny Ascension.

That's not made clear AT ALL when making the decision.

Yeah, it really wasn't made clear until ME2.  I bet it was a pretty even sacrifice either way you chose though, human lives versus alien lives.

Yeah that's what it ends up as but with the information supplied when the decision is made I thought it was a choice between a handful of aliens (including the Council) and thousands of human soldiers...so naturally I chose the Renegade path, heh.

I'll probably replay ME1 and save the Council to be honest, now that I know the real stakes, but my ME2 choice will always remain: keep the base. Aside from anything else I feel it'll make for an interesting conflict in ME3 (hopefully) between Shepard and TIM as to how to use the base.

[Kappa Neko]

My paragon Shep made the choice to give the base to Cerberus ;0) I was really torn, didn't know what to do. I thought it would be smarter not to destroy it. Makes sense that the only way to kill the reapers is to study them and use that information against them... how naive of me to think that Cerberus would do just that *rolls eyes* So I got everybody mad at me. Great. Should have stuck to the paragon choice....

Did the last part again and destroyed the base.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Except that if you save the Destiny Ascension that would mean you go all out on the geth forces around and completely demolish them before the arms open. To me when I made my choice the first time I carefully weighed my options. I didn't want my forces to hang back and let everyone else die. I also assumed Sovereign couldn't withstand that much sustained fire or else he wouldn't have closed the arms. The Alliance Fleet effectively saves the day in that battle. When you have a chance to save the governing body for half the Galaxy, you should probably consider doing it.

Besides if there is a chance to save lives any soldier knows that it's a good cause to die for. Everyone on all of those ships knows the stakes and they will gladly follow orders. Then what do I find out? That had I not saved that huge ship many more people would have died and our governing body would be lost.

Saving the Ascension was the practical and logical choice for me. The only reason some people didn't save it was because some people focus on the target and ignore everything else. So therefore it's practical and logical to them.

I'll by and large not pick bones here, and just return to the point of Mass Effect being an honest narrative when it sets up your choices: when it says that leaving the Council is preserves forces for use against Sovereign, you can trust it. And when it says you can save the Destiny Ascension at the cost of the strike force, you can believe it then as well. To maintain logical consistency, arguments made from that point on need to reflect in-game realities.

I have to add one more thing. Sovereign can't open the Relays without Saren. That's why Sovereign was there in the first place. The Keepers couldn't do it, so Sovereign needed another option. Vigil explains as much. So when I made the choice the first time I THOUGHT I had put down Saren and I knew I could take out any Geth that came to try and open the Relays. So when Joker informed me that I could bring the fleet in early and save a ship, or hang back and wait for the battle to die down I chose to bring them in fast.

Vigil also said that Sovereign would eventually be able to override the lockout program once you put in the program, so Saren's necessity (as opposed to being highly desirable) after the point you kill him is suspect.

Shand you complain about Meta gaming but the only way to know that Alliance will take any casualties is through Meta Gaming. A hypocrite is you. Neither side knows how many people will be lost given the actions, so I chose to save the people who attempt to bring the galaxy together.

You misunderstand the difference between metagaming and well founded expectations then. Metagaming is taking and comparing end-run results and using those to justify your decisions. Knowing that people and ships will die if you take a corse of action, however, is the logical consequence of committing forces to a battle, as well as one explicitly implied by the narrative. In battles, people die, and that fact is as safe an expectation as the expectation that the Council will die without you.

While the future is inherently unknowable, not all unknowns are equal. Chances and likelyhoods do favor somethings greatly and other things not at all: I will never hold my breath in expectation that all terrorists in the world will have sudden Death Note-esque heart attacks tomorrow, for example. In the context of a desperate fight for survival in which victory is not a given, there is a safer path to victory and there is a much riskier gamble.

Debates about how much the Council oligarchy actually bring the galaxy together is something better left for another topic.

[Dean_the_Young]

Kappa Neko wrote...

My paragon Shep made the choice to give the base to Cerberus ;0) I was really torn, didn't know what to do. I thought it would be smarter not to destroy it. Makes sense that the only way to kill the reapers is to study them and use that information against them... how naive of me to think that Cerberus would do just that *rolls eyes* So I got everybody mad at me. Great. Should have stuck to the paragon choice....
Did the last part again and destroyed the base.

Why not have the gallbladder and the spine to say 'I think I know better than you' to them? Shepard pretty much decides their personel issues for most of them anyway, with rare few exceptions.

[SomebodyNowhere]

Deciding to play as a hardcore renegade can lead to some tough decisions, but if you want to see the longterm outcome of making different choices it has to be done. Renegades are funny with how the majority of their problem solving consists of punching folks (or worse) to shut them up.

[The Interloper]

I'm doing my renegade playthrough and it can get pretty hilarious, in my opinion. But it's just hard to take it seriously; if I'm insulting off one of my party, it feels funny but not what the real Shepard would do. You know, the nice one.

[Dean_the_Young]

How is the real Shepard a nice one?

[Miss Yuna of Atlanta]

I'm mostly Paragon, but have slight Renegade tendencies as my Shepard's actions can be somewhat underhanded from time to time. All of my bigger decisions are Paragon. I saved the Council. I destroyed the Collectors' base. I freed the rachni queen. However, I also slaughtered Elnora, put a gun between Conrad Verner's eyes(then kneed him in the crotch a couple of years later), and shoved that mercenary out of a window. Long story short, I'm usually kind to my allies(and potential allies), but treat my enemies with the utmost disgust.