51 réponses à ce sujet

[Valthier]

Wow, this is a great idea! I know I already have two Wardens and another in the pipeline whose saves will probably see me through any replays I do of DA2, but the random Warden generator sounds pretty cool. Almost tempting enough that I'd think to do a run with that instead of one of my Wardens since hey, Hawke probably doesn't know what the Warden's up to so why should I as her player? It'll be a lovely set of surprises!

[phaonica]

Blumbum wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Wow, I think this is a really good idea! I wonder if new players would really *get* it though. The game would have to mention early on, somehow, why certain random differences in the history were occuring with different playthroughs.

Why should they explain anything to anyone who is playing a SEQUEL to a STORY BASED game.

"duurhuur how do I know whats goin on"

By playing the first one?

LOL. Oh believe me, I agree with you.

But we don't want to alienate those who didn't like and didn't play the first game by making the second one even more inaccessible. [/ only mostly sarcastic ] .

[Riona45]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Agreed...also, I haven't read anywhere that Asperger's Syndrome no longer exists.

It's no longer a separate syndrome (really, it never was - the point here is that the medical commuity was wrong, and now they've made a correction).  Asperger's is just part of a Autistic Spectrum.

That's what I've heard...but that's different from saying it doesn't exist.

[taine]

filaminstrel wrote...

taine wrote...

Occam's Razor shaved Schrödinger's Cat.

Then Pavlov's Dog started drooling due to the buzzing sound of the razor.

Now you're just being silly. 

To address the actual topic, I would imagine that considering they are having you import your save into DA2, what Bioware has planned is not all that far off from what has been discussed. 

[Riona45]

Maverick827 wrote...

I disagree that an established cannon would lessen "our" Warden's decisions; in fact, I believe it would only serve to highlight the individual changes you made after you know what the world "could" have been.

Well, the point of having a story that's "canon" means it's true for everyone, and any deviations from that are null and void.  I'm glad they are not implementing a canon storyline.

[Riona45]

filaminstrel wrote...


Then Pavlov's Dog started drooling due to the buzzing sound of the razor.

I've always pictured Occam's Razor as an old-fashioned blade, but updates can be nice.

[phaonica]

filaminstrel wrote...

Yeah, it might be confusing to new players if something different happens on the second playthrough than on the first seemingly independent of their own choices...

Not only that, but if our choices actually did matter in a significant way, like if a quest solution depended on a choice determined by the previous game, it'd be harder to look up the solution on the internet if you got stuck because it would be random every time you played the game. You might actually have to pay attention to which version of the story you were playing, and who wants to do that?

Just playing devil's advocate here, I do think it's a good idea.

[Ulicus]

RosaAquafire wrote...

The PROBLEM is that once that's out there, we all have that sinking feeling that our Warden wasn't THE Warden, and our Warden chose "wrong" when they made Anora queen, sponsored Bhelan, or didn't go through the DR.

No, "we all" don't. You do. Others might. But it's foolish to. Game default is game default. It can only become "canon" if it starts being referenced as factual over and above other configurations in supplementary materials, like comics or books.

As long as differences are confined to the game world there's no way for one configuration to take precedence over another. Canon can only exist in relation to something else. ME2's default settings didn't bother me at all. A bigger concern is that "Admiral Anderson" is the advisor to "Councillor Udina" in the books.

That said, I do like the idea of everything being randomised if you don't import. But because it'd be fun, not because I'm scared of default settings.

Modifié par Ulicus, 05 août 2010 - 12:49 .

[druplesnubb]

Blumbum wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Wow, I think this is a really good idea! I wonder if new players would really *get* it though. The game would have to mention early on, somehow, why certain random differences in the history were occuring with different playthroughs.

Why should they explain anything to anyone who is playing a SEQUEL to a STORY BASED game.

"duurhuur how do I know whats goin on"

By playing the first one?

So you want a story based game where it is impossible to know what's going on without having to buy another game? Despite the fact that you paid for a complete game that should be able to stand on it's own? I don't remember having to buy all the previous cod titles to be able to play multiplayer in mw2.

Modifié par druplesnubb, 05 août 2010 - 12:50 .

[phaonica]

Ulicus wrote...

RosaAquafire wrote...

The PROBLEM is that once that's out there, we all have that sinking feeling that our Warden wasn't THE Warden, and our Warden chose "wrong" when they made Anora queen, sponsored Bhelan, or didn't go through the DR.

No, "we all" don't. You do. Others might. But it's foolish to. Game default is game default. It can only become "canon" if it starts being referenced as factual over and above other configurations in supplementary materials, like comics or books.

In short, canon can only exist in relation to something else.

That said, I do like the idea of everything being randomised if you don't import. But because it'd be fun, not because I'm scared of default settings.

It's true that we *shouldn't* be affected by it. I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't somewhat affected by the default choices. However, if it were to be programmed in a way that it didn't diminish anyone else's gameplay, I don't see why it couldn't be implemented. And it could add to the replay value of DA2 because you wouldn't have to play through Origins again to get a different history, though part of me seriously doubts that in the game's current form that your previous choices will significantly affect the gameplay because you would have to play through Origins again to get different choices.

Modifié par phaonica, 05 août 2010 - 12:53 .

[RosaAquafire]

Ulicus wrote...

No, "we all" don't. You do. Others might. But it's foolish to. Game default is game default. It can only become "canon" if it starts being referenced as factual over and above other configurations in supplementary materials, like comics or books.

As long as differences are confined to the game world there's no way for one configuration to take precedence over another. Canon can only exist in relation to something else. ME2's default settings didn't bother me at all. A bigger concern is that "Admiral Anderson" is the advisor to "Councillor Udina" in the books.

That said, I do like the idea of everything being randomised if you don't import. But because it'd be fun, not because I'm scared of default settings.

Whatever bro I'm not here to debate the fine inner workings of the human psyche and why this bothers some people and doesn't bother others. It's not going to ruin the game for me if they don't implement something like this. In fact, I said twice that I'm 100% sure they won't. My level of care is actually pretty negligent.

I've just heard other people complaining about this issue, got thinking about it, decided that they had a point, and had a useless idea which I then decided to share with people. I said "we" because the entire train of thought was inspired by what appeared to be widespread concern, and it felt less stupid than me rolling in and saying WELL I WANT THIS BIOWARE YOU HAD BETTER GIVE IT TO ME when I do in fact know that it's a popular point of view.

I am also not scared of default settings, so allow me to hand you back your ball of hyberbolic assumptions, my friend.

[Bryy_Miller]

SirOccam wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Shrodinger's Cat is one of the reasons why I think 50% of science is a load of bunk.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Seriously, Triceratops and Stygimoloch are now no longer dinosaurs? Pluto is no longer a planet? Asperger's is no longer a disability (well, it no longer EXISTS)? Get it together, scientists.

All the things you just listed are what scientists getting it together looks like. Science is all about constantly revising previously-held notions.

As for Schrödinger's Cat, well...I wouldn't judge all science based on Quantum Mechanics. Everyone knows it's a bit...out there.

You are just a part of the giant SCIENCE CONSPIRACY.

[WingsandRings]

I think this is an awesome idea.



And yes, it's true, we scientists want nothing but to TRICK YOU HAHAHAHAHHAHA.



...Or maybe we just want to get our damn thesis done so we can get the hell out of grad school.

[Seifz]

SirOccam wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Shrodinger's Cat is one of the reasons why I think 50% of science is a load of bunk.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Seriously, Triceratops and Stygimoloch are now no longer dinosaurs? Pluto is no longer a planet? Asperger's is no longer a disability (well, it no longer EXISTS)? Get it together, scientists.

All the things you just listed are what scientists getting it together looks like. Science is all about constantly revising previously-held notions.

As for Schrödinger's Cat, well...I wouldn't judge all science based on Quantum Mechanics. Everyone knows it's a bit...out there.

Quantum Mechanics is only "out there" because we've evolved to adapt to the environment that we live in where things are a certain size and behave in a certain way.  QM primarily deals with very small objects that behave in a different way.  That's all!

QM is probably the most accurate theory in history. 

[inyoface]

well to do this i think you'd just have to randomize the boolean values upon launch.

[Seifz]

inyoface wrote...

well to do this i think you'd just have to randomize the boolean values upon launch.

The implementation is quite trivial.  The real question is whether implementing this system is a good idea.  Personally, I'm in favor of it.  I don't quite buy that new players will be more confused than they would be with a "canon" story of DA:O.  There's sure to be some introduction text or dialogue early in the game that explains anything they need to know.  Certainly Mr. Gaider and his crew could write a few more such dialogues, eh?

Plus, it continues with the idea that history isn't so clear in Thedas.

[phaonica]

inyoface wrote...

 I don't quite buy that new players will be more confused than they would be with a "canon" story of DA:O.  There's sure to be some introduction text or dialogue early in the game that explains anything they need to know. 

I don't think just having a default would be confusing so much as a *changing* default for every playthrough might be confusing. New players might be like "Why is there a different dwarven king in this playthrough?". Obviously, you could just put the reason in the manual or something, but not a lot of people look in there.

Modifié par phaonica, 05 août 2010 - 03:18 .

[RPGrogue]

I like the idea, but some of the reasoning is a little strange. They are just giving people a way to start the game from 2 and not have to do origins. There isnt canon, but is how THEY would have made chocies for their character. Also i like how they are giving preset choices for new players because they are not the warden from origins. In mass effect it seemed strange that when you stepped in to shep you had preset choices from me1 that might not reflect how you would have done that character, since you are the same character. but in this your a diffrent guy, they are not hawkes chocies, but the wardens. so for new players its kinda like it was not their character anyway so they wouldnt care, its almost just prewritten history.

[SirOccam]

Seifz wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Shrodinger's Cat is one of the reasons why I think 50% of science is a load of bunk.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Seriously, Triceratops and Stygimoloch are now no longer dinosaurs? Pluto is no longer a planet? Asperger's is no longer a disability (well, it no longer EXISTS)? Get it together, scientists.

All the things you just listed are what scientists getting it together looks like. Science is all about constantly revising previously-held notions.

As for Schrödinger's Cat, well...I wouldn't judge all science based on Quantum Mechanics. Everyone knows it's a bit...out there.

Quantum Mechanics is only "out there" because we've evolved to adapt to the environment that we live in where things are a certain size and behave in a certain way.  QM primarily deals with very small objects that behave in a different way.  That's all!

QM is probably the most accurate theory in history. 

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply it was all nonsense, just...it can be pretty difficult to conceptualize compared to the more tangible branches of science like classical physics or biology or something. So not being able to grasp quantum entanglement or wave-particle duality or a cat that is both alive and dead doesn't mean there's no value to the scientific process.

If anyone wants to have your mind blown...check out these videos on visualizing 10 dimensions:

(Part 1)
(Part 2)

[somebody99000]

SirOccam wrote...
As for Schrödinger's Cat, well...I wouldn't judge all science based on Quantum Mechanics. Everyone knows it's a bit...out there.

That cat is supposed to be out there. It is someone pointing out the...odd results QM can have for macroscopic objects like cats. The whole point is that it's ridiculous to think the cat is dead and alive at the same time, but that's what QM tells you. So you should only apply it to small objects like molecules and atoms and subatomic particles.

[Blumbum]

druplesnubb wrote...

Blumbum wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Wow, I think this is a really good idea! I wonder if new players would really *get* it though. The game would have to mention early on, somehow, why certain random differences in the history were occuring with different playthroughs.

Why should they explain anything to anyone who is playing a SEQUEL to a STORY BASED game.

"duurhuur how do I know whats goin on"

By playing the first one?

So you want a story based game where it is impossible to know what's going on without having to buy another game? Despite the fact that you paid for a complete game that should be able to stand on it's own? I don't remember having to buy all the previous cod titles to be able to play multiplayer in mw2.

Because Call of Duty Multiplayer is a story based game right? Exactly. A sequel is not meant to stand on it's own with out prior knowledge of the first. Sit down kid.

[In Exile]

Blumbum wrote...
Why should they explain anything to anyone who is playing a SEQUEL to a STORY BASED game.

"duurhuur how do I know whats goin on"

By playing the first one?

Since Bioware does not share your allergy to money, they do this because people may not want to buy an old game, and companies tend not to care why you buy their product so much that you do.

[Seifz]

somebody99000 wrote...

SirOccam wrote...
As for Schrödinger's Cat, well...I wouldn't judge all science based on Quantum Mechanics. Everyone knows it's a bit...out there.

That cat is supposed to be out there. It is someone pointing out the...odd results QM can have for macroscopic objects like cats. The whole point is that it's ridiculous to think the cat is dead and alive at the same time, but that's what QM tells you. So you should only apply it to small objects like molecules and atoms and subatomic particles.

Eh, that's not quite right.  The thought experiment was an attempt to point out the oddities of one particular interpretation of Quantum Mechanics (Copenhagen).  The cat was placed in a box with a Geiger counter, a very small amount of a radioactive substance, and poison.  There was little enough of the radioactive material that after an hour, one atom may or may not have decayed.  If at least one atom did decay, the Geiger counter detected it and released the poison, killing the cat.  If it didn't, the cat is still alive.  It's sort of like "entangling" the cat to an atom.  Strange, huh?  The real problem isn't that the cat is a large object, though.  The problem is that it would be living and nonliving simultaneously.  Creepy.

In any case, don't be so hasty to say that QM applies only to subatomic particles.  Currently, it's also the theory giving us a lot of information about the largest known objects in the universe:  black holes.  Try throwing a cat into a black hole.  It really will be living and dead simultaneously! 

EDIT:  To be more on topic, I still don't see why having a different beginning each time you play the game would confuse anyone.  The people playing Dragon Age 2 should be used to the idea of making choices that affect the story.  Again, a simple "this is what you missed in DA:O" at the beginning would solve the problem entirely.

Modifié par Seifz, 05 août 2010 - 07:49 .

[SirOccam]

Well anyway...the point about QM was not to trash-talk it, but just to say that it tends to be a bit difficult for many people to conceptualize, to the point that it may just sound like crazy talk. Not that it IS crazy talk.