52 réponses à ce sujet

[balmung03]

Steel Majere343 wrote...

im on console so i cant heal anyone outside of my party.  im all down for an epic fight but some of you are not understanding.

As a 360 player, I can understand where you're coming from.  I've tried over 4 playthroughs now (mage, warrior, 2 rogues) to have every militia member survive (abandoning having Lloyd enter the fight after the 2nd attempt, since all he does is get one left hook in before hitting the ground); in every single one of these playthroughs, at least one NPC has fallen.  I suppose with 3 warriors constantly taunting to draw aggro it could be possible, but that's hardly a solution.  It's simply a way around it.

I suppose it's because of weak defense, but even though I sometimes lose only one and other times up to 5 militiamen, Tomas always ends up dead at the end.  He's an archer for god's sake, he should do what he's supposed to and attack from a distance.  But no, he runs up to them first, then turns and fires on an enemy attacking someone else.  Now he's got twice as many undead on him, and I have no way to heal him. (Does Cleansing Aura on a spirit healer affect these NPCs if playing on console?  Not that it's a viable solution for a level 7-8 party, but at least it's something)

You'd think it would be a simple matter to patch consoles in order to allow NPC healing, for those few times where it would help.  Of course, I'd rather BW spend their time fixing the more serious bugs, but I don't see how this one is that difficult, seeing as how PC users can do it.

Modifié par balmung03, 05 août 2010 - 08:58 .

[Giggles_Manically]

The easiest setup for me:

Two Tanks, and two mages work best for this battle.

Wynne and Morrigan both need heal, and with Wynne's group heal this makes it easier.

Shale, and Alistair with Sword and Sheild setup makes the best tanks.



The mages also need Cone of Cold, which while not doing a good amount of damage, locks down undead for a good time and sets up shattering effects with Stone Fist, or Two Handed Critical hits.



Pack lots of lyrium potions and keep the mages healing everybody, even if they are at 75% health, since the militia using their bows can rip the undead apart. Also avoid using the flaming oil, since it dosent work very well and the allied NPCs and teammates like to run into it.

Also talents like Taunt, that pull agro onto your tanks are good since the militia dont last very long in hand two hand.



Using this easily gets you through the battle, and can let you win the battle without any losses.

....



also on a side not Cone of Cold, does damage to NPC's on any difficulty so watch out for Friendly fire. Unless you want to bump of Llyod that is, but then again who dosent?

[mousestalker]

Steel Majere343 wrote...

Itkovian wrote...

Both fights generally involve a constant stream of enemies, and that is pretty much the point.
To ensure the villagers survive, you will need to have some experience under your belt and good knowledge of how the game works, and generally prepare your party for that fight beforehand.
In short, if this is the first time you play the game, don't worry about it: you will lose people.
One useful hint however is to load up on crowd control (cone of cold is especially good), and have your healer heal the NPCs as well when needed.
Itkovian

thats the thing, i'v tried not worrying about it, that is what gets every one of them killed and then me trying to fight this massive horde in the end.

Obviously this wont get fixed due to the amount of people who apparently enjoy this kind of thing. which is too bad for the rest of us.

I wouldnt care if the undead came in a steady stream if it was reasonable for the allies i was given. but its not. in reality its just a poorly planned battle. Its obvious not all of them are supposed to die. but they do, and the battle should not be that epic since the game advises you go to redcliff first you should not need to have a full spirit healer or something to keep these bastards alive. With all the upgrades i did before the fight i expected them to require little babysitting and to be pretty good.

If they just made the militia stronger, like 2 or 3 times as much health it would solve all these complaints.

You don't have Dwynn? If so, then you need Dwynn. He upgrades the militia as well. Try recruiting Berwick as well. He's a decent archer and another warm body.

[Steel Majere343]

i do have dwynn, he stays up there with the knights and helps them out, same with berwick. they dont help the militia as far as i know.



its not that i absolutely CANT make it through the fight, i have over 70 pultices by this point in the game. I could defenately make it through, the problem is is that i want to experience it how it was meant to be experienced.



I highly, highly doubt the fight was supposed to go the way it does, where all of the militia are toast and its just you fighting a horde of undead, using upwards of 20 or 30 pultices.



i think what was supposed to happen is you end up with 1,2 or 3 militia men. or at least give them a mage to heal them, that would make sense. one mage from the chantry or something who knows heal, put her/him near the chantry doors, and he could heal the militia until he's killed. that would be enough of a boost to get most of them through the fight.



its not even like i have heal yet, morrigan hasn't leveld up yet. This playthrough i wanted to listen to alistair, go to redcliff first, that is literally like the 3rd battle morrigan has ever been in. she doesnt have heal, theres nothing i can do.

[Zjarcal]

"... the problem is is that i want to experience it how it was meant to be experienced."



You really have an obsession with this theme, don't you?

[Steel Majere343]

well i wouldnt say its an obsession, but it does bug me when stuff like this happens in a game. if your going to throw hordes of enemies at me that im meant to have help with then make sure i have allies. My cries will likely go in vain on the forums since i highly doubt they will do anything more with the quest. and no matter how much i talk about it its not going to change the game.



The final battle for instance has your allies on a respawning loop (until the number of them runs out).



i design games myself as a part time project and fixes like this are easy. adjusting NPC health and so on is not complicated at all. They could, if they wanted, fix the entire battle in approximately 30 seconds of attention.



Its not that im obsessed with it its just a lot of people make excuses for battles that are just broken.

This being one of them, no its not impossable to beat obviously. But does it work as it should? defenately not. people let it slide by avoiding it until later or preparing for it, thats called metagaming.



Preparing isn't metagaming but preparing for a battle that you otherwise would have no idea its as difficult as it is is metagaming.



people were making excuses for the game back when the battles were COMPLETELY broken and creatures didn't even level appropriately.



all i'm saying is they shouldn't just leave it up to the player to find some work around to get through a battle that is utterly broken. Bioware should take all of the thousands they are getting from the game and the DLCs and take 30 seconds to fix it.

[FiliusMartis]

Do you have the latest patch? I don't know what to tell you, as I'm a console gamer and never found this battle to be broken. It can be a tactical challenge, but it's supposed to. I usually do Honnleath early on, often first, but the first time I played I headed straight to Redcliffe and lost around 3 or 4 militia if I recall.



There's a chance you're encountering some sort of odd bug making this more difficult than it's supposed to be. You're not supposed to be left on your own to struggle, but the militia are not supposed to have a lot of power either.



If you spend time doing the crap in Lothering, you should be leveling. I'm curious how you managed to get 70 poultices if this is the first place you've been...?

[Steel Majere343]

well iv played through the game a fair amount of times (though other then time number one i always let lothering burn to the ground).



and usually i have more than 80 by the time i leave lothering. With all the elfroots and lesser pultices from the beginning origins and ostagar.



i didnt do any of the stuff in lothering this play through, usually i dont need to.



instead i went straight to redcliff. after bartering there i have more than 70 pultices.



I can almost garantee you they did not playtest the battle in the first place.



I do have the latest patch (1.04 right?). You see, no "tactics" at my disposal are present to help the militia stay alive. I can pick up some of the undead, they still all die though. Even if my warrior taunts most of the undead simply ignore him, sometimes he will pull two or three away from the militia.

[balmung03]

FiliusMartis wrote...

I'm curious how you managed to get 70 poultices if this is the first place you've been...?

Probably by buying elfroots in Lothering and from Bodahn, as well as flasks (doesn't Bodahn have an infinite supply?  I never really buy much from him except tomes and the occasional weapon/armor/rune)

[Steel Majere343]

thats exactly it balmung

[Zjarcal]

Steel Majere343 wrote...

Its not that im obsessed with it its just a lot of people make excuses for battles that are just broken.

How about you stop talking on behalf of other people? No one here is making excuses for enjoying a "broken" battle. We just happen to enjoy it for what it is, a tough and enjoyable battle. 

You say that people prepare for it in advance and that we're "metagaming". Again, quit making assumptions. On my current playthrough (on nightmare difficulty) I didn't have a crapload of poultices (around 12 lesser health and maybe 6 regular health poultices) nor did I have a healer in the party. I was level 7-8 using low tier equipment. The battle was what it was, tough, and it was impossible to keep everyone alive, but the casualties were still kept to a minimum (only two).

If half (or more) of the militia had died, would that have made the battle "broken"? No, it simply would've meant my party didn't do as good as a job as described earlier. Nothing "broken" about that.

[DWSmiley]

Lots of players get through this battle with no special preparation so it doesn't make sense to say it's broken. I didn't lose this fight the first time when I had no idea what to expect though I did lose several militia.

[FiliusMartis]

I see... I'm not sure how you got the Health Poultice recipe unless you were super lucky and Lloyd had it. He never does for me. I've never put that much effort into crafting early on.



Anyway, no offense, but this problem seems unique to you. It seems that your tank isn't tanking well. He or she needs to be THE best equipped on the field and should be slinging taunt and threaten around like nobody's business if having trouble keeping the hate. I understand you've played before, and I'm not trying to say you don't know how to set up the tactics, but rather than considering a battle that most people aren't having difficulties with "broken" maybe you could post your setup here for people to see? Best case is someone sees something you missed that is critical in this battle when it wouldn't be in others; worst case is your setup is fine and we all say oh darn your game is broken.



That being said, I've never had screwy spawn timers or minutes of waiting. It has always been a constant stream of baddies.

[Steel Majere343]

Zjarcal wrote...

Steel Majere343 wrote...

Its not that im obsessed with it its just a lot of people make excuses for battles that are just broken.

How about you stop talking on behalf of other people? No one here is making excuses for enjoying a "broken" battle. We just happen to enjoy it for what it is, a tough and enjoyable battle. 

You say that people prepare for it in advance and that we're "metagaming". Again, quit making assumptions. On my current playthrough (on nightmare difficulty) I didn't have a crapload of poultices (around 12 lesser health and maybe 6 regular health poultices) nor did I have a healer in the party. I was level 7-8 using low tier equipment. The battle was what it was, tough, and it was impossible to keep everyone alive, but the casualties were still kept to a minimum (only two).

If half (or more) of the militia had died, would that have made the battle "broken"? No, it simply would've meant my party didn't do as good as a job as described earlier. Nothing "broken" about that.

im not talking on behalf of anyone, i just stated what i see. what im saying is it doesnt matter what you do, you have a limtied amount of things you can do to help an NPC.

if the entire militia dies it does make the battle broken. Its not as if we can directly interact with them, you really cant do a lot to stop them from dying especially on console. I can knock them over with shield bash, and..mind blast causes a few seconds of rest.

the only real way to keep them alive is if im at least level 14 and can use that spirit healer technique.

[Zjarcal]

Steel Majere343 wrote...

if the entire militia dies it does make the battle broken. Its not as if we can directly interact with them, you really cant do a lot to stop them from dying especially on console. I can knock them over with shield bash, and..mind blast causes a few seconds of rest.

the only real way to keep them alive is if im at least level 14 and can use that spirit healer technique.

I give up.

Believe whatever the hell you want. The battle is broken if you can't keep them all alive, the game is broken if you don't have a spirit healer. Whatever.

[FiliusMartis]

The primary way to help them is to keep the hate on your guys, primarily your tank. The game doesn't seem 'broken' for anyone else so... You seem unwilling to post your party or tactics or anything really.



If you want to try to figure out why this is happening to you then awesome, let's do that. If you want me to agree that a battle I've never had any obscene difficulty with is broken then I'm sorry.

[Steel Majere343]

FiliusMartis wrote...

I see... I'm not sure how you got the Health Poultice recipe unless you were super lucky and Lloyd had it. He never does for me. I've never put that much effort into crafting early on.

Anyway, no offense, but this problem seems unique to you. It seems that your tank isn't tanking well. He or she needs to be THE best equipped on the field and should be slinging taunt and threaten around like nobody's business if having trouble keeping the hate. I understand you've played before, and I'm not trying to say you don't know how to set up the tactics, but rather than considering a battle that most people aren't having difficulties with "broken" maybe you could post your setup here for people to see? Best case is someone sees something you missed that is critical in this battle when it wouldn't be in others; worst case is your setup is fine and we all say oh darn your game is broken.

That being said, I've never had screwy spawn timers or minutes of waiting. It has always been a constant stream of baddies.

no,no not 80 normal health pultices (but just FYI the guy in ostigar sells the health putlice recipee, ya that very first merchant guy who asks for the red headed elf, he sells the recipee) to be exact i have 63 lesser pultices, 13 health pultices and 2 greater. so i actually have 78 to be exact.

and i'm not the only one actually, search redcliff battle in the search bar and you will see just how much trouble people are having.

from the 3 or 4 or 5 people that have responded, yes i seem to be the only one. My tank has all heavy armor, heavy chainmail to be exact. No healm ( i hate the way most of them look).

To be honest im not expecting to find anything new by posting on here. basically im just pissed off at the game and the only way to let bioware know i dissaprove is to post. i dont find it fun, i find it frusterating and tedious.

again, im not expecting much here.  i doubt bioware will listen to a couple people out of the player base. Obviously many people enjoy the fight and thats on them i guess. except for the 2 other people that seem to share my opinion on here.

[Steel Majere343]

Zjarcal wrote...

Steel Majere343 wrote...

if the entire militia dies it does make the battle broken. Its not as if we can directly interact with them, you really cant do a lot to stop them from dying especially on console. I can knock them over with shield bash, and..mind blast causes a few seconds of rest.

the only real way to keep them alive is if im at least level 14 and can use that spirit healer technique.

I give up.

Believe whatever the hell you want. The battle is broken if you can't keep them all alive, the game is broken if you don't have a spirit healer. Whatever.

lol you dont have to get all angry. Sure the game irritated me and i have a set opinion on the battle itself, just as you believe its perfectly fine the way it is, i believe it sucks and its not fun for me.

this is a place i can say that and it wont matter. I dont know anyone on here, im not secretly hoping bioware is listening lol, because they arn't, im a way too small percentage of the population.

the reason i am saying its broken is not just because I cant keep them alive, its because they built the battle with the intention of you having 7or 8 militia men to help you. When a game stops being fun and starts becomming tedius something is wrong, and because i payed good money for the game, if it starts to become irritating to me i should be allowed to voice this to bioware.

i'v given a lot of money to bioware on behalf of this game. and not once did i say anything about the game being broken without a spirit healer..lol, i said the only way to heal them on console is to have a spirit healer..and it is. Thats a fact not opinion, on console you cannot heal NPCs unless you have a level 14 spirit healer for the final spell thingy.

[FiliusMartis]

It still seems like a rough handful of people are having difficulty with most people being able to pull it off, and the people having difficulty don't seem to be posting their parties or tactics as proof that it's not their fault it's happening. That's fine, whatever floats your boat.



I would keep the helm on though, if only for intense battles. It offers protection and should help your tank draw the hate, if only by a little...

[Rvlion]

When I come to think of it I do recall having an annoying bug in my first game of having the undead streaming on me, but only after I lost the battle once and reloaded the auto-save which was created after you gave the order to wait till the night.
Back then I didn't have Dwynn and the elf, nor the lamp oil and whatever you could do to enhance the defense and I had never heared about the lothering trap quest to enhance myself before proceding. And as you can imagine I got my behind kicked big time, even the knights all died.

Did you at one point reloaded this particular auto-save?
If yes it might be smart to reload a safe from before you entered Redcliff or any save game which is not throwing you into the fight immediately.

btw A spirit healer with Cleansing aura will aid you big time if you have enough mana potions

Modifié par Rvlion, 06 août 2010 - 09:18 .

[DWSmiley]

This is not one of the tougher fights in the game.  It is challenging to keep all of the militia alive but it should be easy for a level 8 group to win with some of the militia still alive.  If not, then I recommend reading more threads on ways to build characters and use tactics.  Doing things like not wearing helmets because of the look obviously doesn't help...though I agree characters look better without them.

[Zjarcal]

DWSmiley wrote...
Doing things like not wearing helmets because of the look obviously doesn't help...though I agree characters look better without them.

Haha, it's not that bad. My current party refuses to protect their heads and they are doing just fine. 

[FiliusMartis]

Zjarcal wrote...

Haha, it's not that bad. My current party refuses to protect their heads and they are doing just fine. 

True enough, but if one is already having difficulties then removing helms is not going to help in the slightest. 

[JeCy108]

balmung03 wrote...

JeCy108 wrote...

well the last time i played it..  on the top section, i had one break. right in the middle..  the rest of the time wynne just healed, and i used mana potions.  I used small heals on my guys.  Also used her group  regen power and the stamina regen on my guys.

then i leave the other group up top, and my group comes down.. that battle there are no breaks,  Just heal, and use single  regen and heal on the NPC's,   and the group regen and stamina regen on the group memebers you control

I basically took out the ogre first,  then did my best to tank the guys, my last time was a sheild fighter, while wynne kept all the NPC's up.  then i used sten to go hit the archers,  lil helped me out

definatly a fun battlem  did it on hard..  this play through going hard again..  Ill up it on the next time through, gonna play as a reaver sheild/sword  next

Just wondering, when and where does this ogre show up?  It might be due to how I usually play on normal (I breeze through character creation and other games have trained me not to adjust difficulty mid-game), but I've never seen an ogre during the Redcliffe siege.  Unless you're talking about the enemies in Redcliffe after the Landsmeet, since there are two of them.  Also, I don't remember any of the undead using archery, so my same question applies to that.

you know.. it might of gotton patched out of the game..  cause the last time i played it, there was no ogre..


the first play through i did, i left lothering, and followed alisters advice to goto redcliff..  the ogre showed up when you goto the lower area.. sorta right near the begining  of that lower battle..  i accually recall 2 ogres infact..  perhaps its only default unpatched orgins??   

If soo, id love to get them back into the battle,  after playing the game a while, that battle is a cake walk, even at lvl 8-10..   well maybe not total cake, but pretty easy.   the last time play through i saved red cliff for later.  I headed strait to orzamar first from lothering, well after grabbing wyyne as a dwarf noble, sheild  templar.   the battle was so easy at lvl 14 or 15 it was almost laughable.   Need to toss in some drakes or  or maybe like 5 ogres  .

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

I went to Redcliffe after I got the urn and all the treaties on one of my Wardens just to mix it up, I was around lvl 19 and it was incredibly easy mainly because the Militia have Scattershot pretty much dominating the undead without any of my help. Also I have never seen an Ogre in Redcliffe other than after the Landsmeet.