115 réponses à ce sujet

[MajesticJazz]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I really think Renegade could be done better. It just feels overly aggressive, to the point where it's even childish and ultimately stupid. There are things I just can't justify doing with my Renegade FemShep. Quite a lot, actually.

I can turn around and say the same thing about a pure Paragon Shepard. While playing 100% Renegade might seem very childish and even rude, playing 100% Paragon can sometimes seem very hypocritical and very naive.

Sometimes I feel like I'm being a complete ***sy when playing as a pure Paragon, like a really uptight a-hole.

So really both pure Paragon and pure Renegade needs a bit of work.

[PWENER]

NOT IF YOU GLITCH!!! Why play as only one thing? There is no fun in it.

Diversity is the spice of life.

Modifié par PWENER, 06 août 2010 - 03:05 .

[pvt_java]

 It's natural - Total Paragon is a Naive dipsh*t. 

[PWENER]

It's natural - Total Renegade is an up-tight a-hole.

[desala]

It breaks my heart that you have to exploit a glitch to play the story you want to



The current system isn't great, but if morality was easy, everyone would have it.

[PWENER]

It's natural - Glitch for best results.

[PWENER]

desala wrote...

It breaks my heart that you have to exploit a glitch to play the story you want to

The current system isn't great, but if morality was easy, everyone would have it.

It's not my fault BW messed up, Im fixing the problem myself.

Mordin: "Don't like it, kick me off the ship".

[JaegerBane]

pvt_java wrote...

 It's natural - Total Paragon is a Naive dipsh*t. 

No more so than Renegade Shep is a callous moron.

[mosor]

JaegerBane wrote...

pvt_java wrote...

 It's natural - Total Paragon is a Naive dipsh*t. 

No more so than Renegade Shep is a callous moron.

Moron? I disagree. Callous and untrusting, sure. Moron definitely not. I don't understand why people are so squeamish playing generally renegade. Other than a couple decisions that are outright evil, most are pragmatic, and err on the side of caution or give humanity an edge. Seriously most people on the receiving end of your callousness are jerks, thugs and criminals. I don't feel sorry for them at all. The dialogue choices seem jerkish, but I have to admit how pleasantly suprised how practical and well thought out the responses were.

Really no one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to be completely renegade or paragon. Even without cheating I usually manage a full rengade bar and a half paragon without the import bonus;.

Modifié par mosor, 06 août 2010 - 08:26 .

[PsyrenY]

MajesticJazz wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I really think Renegade could be done better. It just feels overly aggressive, to the point where it's even childish and ultimately stupid. There are things I just can't justify doing with my Renegade FemShep. Quite a lot, actually.

I can turn around and say the same thing about a pure Paragon Shepard. While playing 100% Renegade might seem very childish and even rude, playing 100% Paragon can sometimes seem very hypocritical and very naive.

Sometimes I feel like I'm being a complete ***sy when playing as a pure Paragon, like a really uptight a-hole.

So really both pure Paragon and pure Renegade needs a bit of work.

I agree with your observation but not you conclusion.

If pure Paragon and pure Renegade were intended as desirable by BW, they would have made one alignment scale rather than two. (i.e. being Paragon lowers your Renegade score, and vice-versa - like Open Palm/Closed Fist in Jade Empire, or Light/Dark Side in KotoR.)

The fact that they didn't do this means that you are intended to mix and match the responses that fit your Shepard's character. They removed this penalty to encourage exploration of Shepard's character - they don't want 100% Parasheps and Renesheps, and it makes sense. Such a character would be too limited in scope to be identifiable.

The second game takes this even further - even a pure Renegade shep can take Paragon Interrupts and vice-versa, providing you a way to increase your score on both axes even with a poor Charm or a poor Intimidate, without "losing" conversations.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 06 août 2010 - 08:35 .

[fantasypisces]

Optimystic_X wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I really think Renegade could be done better. It just feels overly aggressive, to the point where it's even childish and ultimately stupid. There are things I just can't justify doing with my Renegade FemShep. Quite a lot, actually.

I can turn around and say the same thing about a pure Paragon Shepard. While playing 100% Renegade might seem very childish and even rude, playing 100% Paragon can sometimes seem very hypocritical and very naive.

Sometimes I feel like I'm being a complete ***sy when playing as a pure Paragon, like a really uptight a-hole.

So really both pure Paragon and pure Renegade needs a bit of work.

I agree with your observation but not you conclusion.

If pure Paragon and pure Renegade were intended as desirable by BW, they would have made one alignment scale rather than two. (i.e. being Paragon lowers your Renegade score, and vice-versa - like Open Palm/Closed Fist in Jade Empire, or Light/Dark Side in KotoR.)

The fact that they didn't do this means that you are intended to mix and match the responses that fit your Shepard's character. They removed this penalty to encourage exploration of Shepard's character - they don't want 100% Parasheps and Renesheps, and it makes sense. Such a character would be too limited in scope to be identifiable.

The second game takes this even further - even a pure Renegade shep can take Paragon Interrupts and vice-versa, providing you a way to increase your score on both axes even with a poor Charm or a poor Intimidate, without "losing" conversations.

My problem is that I tend to take paragon responses, and once I get to a certain point, intimidate options are no longer available even though I know my paragon shep would take the red response at that time.  It is supposed to be open ended, but after a while you sort of get stuck into one side because of game balance, especially in ME2 where if you don't focus heavily on one side you will miss very important "persuasion" attempts at the end of the game.

The only way to counter this is to either glitch, or have meta-game knowledge. For instance, my first playthrough the first thing I did was visit the citadel to check in with the council. When I met to Omega I was not able to make a single intimidate check with 200 paragon and 90 renegade. And there were some red responses I wanted to take there.

So now with my metagame knowledge, on my current and "cannon" playthrough, I am not going right to the citadel. I just finished Omega and currently have like 280 paragon and 180 renegade (or something about there).

The system does force you to go one way after a while if you even lean slightly towards one-side. In this way I much prefer DA, where all options are available to either respond with a pragmatic/jerk/nice/naive viewpoint and are not dependent on some meter.

[TheBlackBaron]

As has been repeated several times, the system breaks down when you try to go pure one way or another. Sure, pure RenShep is a racist jerkass, but pure Paragon Shep tends to exemplify the "Stupid Good" morality, not to mention being incredibly naive to boot.



You're meant to mix them, at least from a writing standpoint (as well all know that's inadvisable from a gameplay standpoint - just mod yourself the morality points, there's threads that show you how to do that for both PC and 306). Nobody outside of a mental institution is a total saint or a baby-eating demon.



Played "correctly", Renegade Shepard is a jerk, but a jerk with a heart of gold, and does bad things to bad people. As TV Tropes would call him, he's a Heroic Sociopath.



And, of course, you can just play him pure as can be, in which case you get a Byronic hero instead. Which I personally enjoy more than a the aforementioned traits as a pure Paragon, but whatever floats your boat.

[Matroska]

Pretty sure most people would actually find Paragon Shepard to be the jerk. He'd come across as preachy and arrogant, very holier-than-thou. Most Renegade actions, though not all by any means, are more in line with what the average person would do. I think because Shepard, however you play him, is the hero of the piece that has saved the galaxy twice (and counting) his "****" side has to be curtailed somewhat. He can't be evil in the way that a main character in Fable, KoTOR or Oblivion can be.

[IanPolaris]

Optimystic_X wrote...
[This is the whole reason why gaining Renegade points does not detract from your Paragon score, and vice-versa. You were intended to be able to mix both approaches without being penalized mechanically.

The problem is this doesn't in fact work in ME2.  In ME1, you can mix paragon and renegade choices if you like because "Charm" and "Intimidate" scores don't talk to each other.  The progam simply checks to see how many absolute points you have of each and then opens up the appropriate options.

Not so for ME2.  In ME2, the options depend on the relative percentage of maximum theoretical possible paragon and renegade points.  That means that each renegade point you earn makes it much more difficult to open up any paragon choice (and vice versa).  ME2 is explicitly designed to discourage the mixing of both approaches.

-Polaris

[angj57]

shootist70 wrote...

Nobody is forcing you to be pure renegade. If you want to make your Shepard more complex  (as I did) then do it. As I said before, you can max out your Renegade bar without being 100% Renegade.

Your argument is like the guy suing Macdonalds because eating it exclusively made him fat; try varying your diet.

I covered this argument already. It's a player-contrived solution, and player-contrived solutions aren't consistent with suspension-of-disbelief, and the latter is vital to anything with dramatic content.

It's like saying to somebody who's reading the Twilight series 'try imagining that it's much better written than it actually is'.

So role playing in a role playing game is contrived? Wow.

[IanPolaris]

MajesticJazz wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I really think Renegade could be done better. It just feels overly aggressive, to the point where it's even childish and ultimately stupid. There are things I just can't justify doing with my Renegade FemShep. Quite a lot, actually.

I can turn around and say the same thing about a pure Paragon Shepard. While playing 100% Renegade might seem very childish and even rude, playing 100% Paragon can sometimes seem very hypocritical and very naive.

Sometimes I feel like I'm being a complete ***sy when playing as a pure Paragon, like a really uptight a-hole.

So really both pure Paragon and pure Renegade needs a bit of work.

I agree that the pure paragon path can be "Church Lady" annoying (to take a riff off Saturday Night Live), and it could use some work, but in practice the choices aren't equal.

I have found in the game that the really important and difficult paragon choices are much easier to make than the important and difficult renegade choices.  (You do realize that everytime you ask "how is the crew" you pick up a small fractional paragon score?)  That means that for most Paragon Sheps, you CAN be a badass and insert in some Renegade Interrupts and some judicious Renegade Dialog and still be able to make the hard paragon choices (like Samara v Morinth, Jack v Miranda, Tali v Legion.)

Unless you are playing with nearly a "pure" renegade ME1 import, the same can not be said for renegade sheps.  A Renegade Shep that takes ANY Paragon option (even unintentionally) hurts his ability to make critical influence choices later.  The game strongly favors Paragon Sheps.

-polaris

[Matroska]

Actually, Polaris, that isn't true. There are choices which can only give Renegade or only give Paragon. So you can answer only Paragon-type choices but get nothing. Redo that part, answer only Renegade and you'll get some Renegade points. Additionally, in ME1 you could mix up R and P answers in one conversation but you'd still only get points for one at the end. So open by saying "I love EVERYONE!!!" then say "But I'll punch anyone who disagrees" and you'll just get +2 P for the first statement, ignoring your second statement. In ME2, it is clocked up for each and every answer you give.

Edit
What I said refers more to your earlier points than the latest ones. I do agree that the game favours Paragon, but not because of the scoring system, more because Paragon is basically "do the right thing" and Renegade is more like "be rude". It should be more like Paragon is "Follow the rules even if it doesn't add up" and Renegade is "Follow your own heart even if it isn't the most sensible path".

Modifié par Teclo, 07 août 2010 - 04:45 .

[DarkSeraphym]

Teclo wrote...

Actually, Polaris, that isn't true. There are choices which can only give Renegade or only give Paragon. So you can answer only Paragon-type choices but get nothing. Redo that part, answer only Renegade and you'll get some Renegade points. Additionally, in ME1 you could mix up R and P answers in one conversation but you'd still only get points for one at the end. So open by saying "I love EVERYONE!!!" then say "But I'll punch anyone who disagrees" and you'll just get +2 P for the first statement, ignoring your second statement. In ME2, it is clocked up for each and every answer you give.

Edit
What I said refers more to your earlier points than the latest ones. I do agree that the game favours Paragon, but not because of the scoring system, more because Paragon is basically "do the right thing" and Renegade is more like "be rude". It should be more like Paragon is "Follow the rules even if it doesn't add up" and Renegade is "Follow your own heart even if it isn't the most sensible path".

Sensible is a matter of perspective. What you think is sensible and what I think are sensible may or may not be the exact samething. Likewise, right decisions and wrong decisions are matters of perspective as well. Ethics philosophers can't even agree upon what creates morals in the first place, or what causes the morals of some to differ from the morals of another.

Part of the reason why I think the game favors Paragon Shepards is because Paragon Shepards are a lot easier to build. RPG's are supposed to be immersive games and sometimes people have a hard time going beyond their comfort zone as a result of this. Far more people are going to side with the ideas of a Paragon Shepard because Paragon Shepard tends to be more in tune with the morality of most people who are actually going to play a game.

Judging from a great deal of threads on this forum, it seems like Renegade Shepard is actually challenging for a lot of people to actually play. To add to this problem, BioWare seems to have adapted an allegiance system in ME2 for the two forms of morality. Paragon tends to favor cooperation while Renegade tends to favor human dominance, which a lot of players seem to sympathize more with a Shepard who is in favor of cooperation than those who are going to favor dominance.

Finally, I think this system is more realistic anyways. A non-pure Paragon Shepard is going to have an easier time doing Renegade things than a non-pure Renegade Shepard should have doing some more Paragon things. For instance, a Paragon Shepard could agree that a criminal is far too dangerous to allow to live yet also agree that the person should stand trial for their crimes at the exact sametime. However, a Renegade Shepard is moreso about getting the job done at all costs. A Renegade Shepard is far less likely to share these same two viewpoints and will more likely think that such a criminal should just be dealt with now instead of later in the court systems of C-Sec and the Citadel.

[IanPolaris]

Teclo wrote...

Actually, Polaris, that isn't true. There are choices which can only give Renegade or only give Paragon. So you can answer only Paragon-type choices but get nothing. Redo that part, answer only Renegade and you'll get some Renegade points. Additionally, in ME1 you could mix up R and P answers in one conversation but you'd still only get points for one at the end. So open by saying "I love EVERYONE!!!" then say "But I'll punch anyone who disagrees" and you'll just get +2 P for the first statement, ignoring your second statement. In ME2, it is clocked up for each and every answer you give.

Edit
What I said refers more to your earlier points than the latest ones. I do agree that the game favours Paragon, but not because of the scoring system, more because Paragon is basically "do the right thing" and Renegade is more like "be rude". It should be more like Paragon is "Follow the rules even if it doesn't add up" and Renegade is "Follow your own heart even if it isn't the most sensible path".

Actually it is true and it's been confirmed by Bioware itself.  It's true that some choices can only give paragon or renegade results, but in general getting renegade points means NOT getting paragon points (and vice versa) which means if you want to be able to be able to use maximum charm or intimidate, you ARE (in ME2) shoehorned into pure Renegade Choices in particular (although it's true to a much lesser degree for Paragon choices too).

-Polaris

Edit:  It's true in ME1, the game would "total" your conversation options for each total conversation and give you a total, but in ME1 the paragon and renegade scores acted as modifiers to existing Charm and Intimidate skills and the options available in ME1 depended ONLY on your raw total Intimidate or Charm skill (after paragon or renegade modifications).  In ME2, it's different.  The options open up only if you have a set percentage of a hypothetical "maximum possible" paragon or renegade score which punishes you for splitting your choices.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 07 août 2010 - 05:27 .

[chapa3]

Personally, I believe the ME2 system unintentionally favors neither paragon nor renegade Sheps, but ME1 Import Sheps, especcially ones that exploited the Lorik Quinn glitch (like me). I only had 3 instanses when a renegade choice was blotted out, and only one when both choices were blotted out (the last dialogue between Shepard and Morinith). I finished with a nearly full paragon meter and a half full renegade meter. Had there been no import bonus, it would have been impossible.

[IanPolaris]

chapa3 wrote...

Personally, I believe the ME2 system unintentionally favors neither paragon nor renegade Sheps, but ME1 Import Sheps, especcially ones that exploited the Lorik Quinn glitch (like me). I only had 3 instanses when a renegade choice was blotted out, and only one when both choices were blotted out (the last dialogue between Shepard and Morinith). I finished with a nearly full paragon meter and a half full renegade meter. Had there been no import bonus, it would have been impossible.

Oh there is absolutely no question that the ME2 system strongly favors ME1 imports (either Paragon or Renegade)....ridiculously so in the earlier parts of the game because those imported ME1 paragon/renegade points don't count against your total possible cap but ARE inflated by your special class skill....that makes it possible to have more than 300% of total possible paragon/renegade points though much of the early game.

That said, I also say that the ME2 system does favor Paragon Sheps or more to the point virtually forces you (unless you take the ME1 import route) to play "pure" renegade (which is the problem of this thread) if you have any hope of qualifyng for the renegade options.

-Polaris

[Matroska]

Another way ME2 seems more open, though, is that you don't have to separately level up Charm and Intimidate. In ME1, whichever alignment I played, I never got the choice to make opposite-alignment choices because I hadn't levelled up the separate skills. In ME2 your choices are derived from how you've acted not from what separate skill you've poured points into.

As for the argument about what is "sensible" to different people, fair enough. But you're trying to be too clever. BioWare aren't some master philosophers, their just playing on basic morality here. The Paragon choices are all generic "nice guy" actions, the Renegade are generic "**** you" actions. It distances itself from subjectivity by conforming to choices that a consensus can easily identify. Threaten somebody or reason with somebody. Punish someone violently or have them arrested. Take no risks and kill a possible threat or give them the benefit of the doubt.

There are no choices like "you find out that your friend's wife slept with his dad on their wedding day, do you tell him or not?" or "your friend has porn of juvenile asari, do you tell the police, ask for the files for yourself or knock him out for being a paedo?" - nothing so ambiguous as that - and that should be a petty choice given that Shepard is fighting for the survival of all life in the galaxy.

Modifié par Teclo, 07 août 2010 - 06:20 .

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

The red option might be grayed out.



But the renegade answer isn't going to be.



Something has to give between "realistic" roleplaying and completionism. Having to actually make a choice of someone's loyalty is way more interesting than just picking upper blue option every time.

[DarkSeraphym]

Teclo wrote...

Another way ME2 seems more open, though, is that you don't have to separately level up Charm and Intimidate. In ME1, whichever alignment I played, I never got the choice to make opposite-alignment choices because I hadn't levelled up the separate skills. In ME2 your choices are derived from how you've acted not from what separate skill you've poured points into.

As for the argument about what is "sensible" to different people, fair enough. But you're trying to be too clever. BioWare aren't some master philosophers, their just playing on basic morality here. The Paragon choices are all generic "nice guy" actions, the Renegade are generic "**** you" actions. It distances itself from subjectivity by conforming to choices that a consensus can easily identify. Threaten somebody or reason with somebody. Punish someone violently or have them arrested. Take no risks and kill a possible threat or give them the benefit of the doubt.

There are no choices like "you find out that your friend's wife slept with his dad on their wedding day, do you tell him or not?" or "your friend has porn of juvenile asari, do you tell the police, ask for the files for yourself or knock him out for being a paedo?" - nothing so ambiguous as that - and that should be a petty choice given that Shepard is fighting for the survival of all life in the galaxy.

Your example of the "You find out your friend's wife slept with his dad on their wedding day, do you tell him or not?" is actually a pretty good example for my point. Some of the decisions are actually fairly amibiguous, one of them being the decision on what you should do with the Collector Base. The reason I think your example is pretty good because if I examine this decision, I could examine it this way by examining my options:

A. I can tell my friend that his wife slept with his dad on his wedding day. However, the repercussions for this decision is that my friend's otherwise happy occassion is now going to become one of despair. Likewise, I am going to bring a sadness upon him that could have otherwise been avoided merely out of doing what was right.

B. I can not tell him. This is the approach of "ignorance is bliss" and my friend is going to be otherwise happy. Telling him could also create some drama that I would otherwise rather keep myself out of. However, there is no gurantee that he won't find out on his own, which could end up being bad for me too if he ever discovers I knew the truth but did not tell him.

I can then turn this around with the Collector Base issue and approach it in a similar manner.

A. Destroy the Collector Base (Paragon Ending) - I have no idea what kind of technology is actually on the base, all that I do know is that The Illusive Man is convinced there is technology on that base that COULD pertain towards the Reaper threat. However, there is a chance the Illusive Man could use this technology for more than just the Reaper threat. The possible repercussions of this decision are A. I could be destroying the key to stopping the Reapers and B. I will be eliminating any ties I have to the only organization that was willing to listen to me on the Reaper issue.

B. Keep the Collector Base (Renegade Ending)  - Once again, I have no idea what is on the base. This decision takes the approach that there could be relevant technology on the base and regardless of what Cerberus has in store for the technology in the future, it's better than all organic life being wiped out by the Reaper threat. The possible repercussions for this decision are A. there never was any relevant weaponry with respect to Reaper threat or there could have been, yet it will not be of much use or B. The Illusive Man will use the technology for keeping human dominance in the galaxy.

This is just one decision as well. As far as I am concerned, Mass Effect 2 was totally littered with decisions similar to this one that can't just be narrowed down to "nice guy" and "****" you.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

Legion loyalty quest was the best moral quandary in the game.