155 réponses à ce sujet

[joriandrake]

iTomes wrote...

"a few generations sure, about 4 or 5 centuries atleast, and only if the mindset of humans changes and a social/scientific/industrial revolution happens"

yes, it would take time. and yes, a social or whatever revolution would be necessary. but its not impossible and surely worth the effort. besides, i dont think it would be this hard to integrate the mages. make them help the people, let them work in hospitals or whatever, allow them to show the normal people how magic can help them. usually humans dont hate what obviously helps them....

the irony is that in that case some mages would misuse their power and freedom while treating people, or they would start to believe they are special enough to be bowed to, be worshiped, or served, and it could escalate into the situation where mages rule over non-magic users with an iron grip, just as they were ruling in the past before Andraste

[iTomes]

"if it changes peacefull, be my guest, although that won't happen, and if it is changed via force, the outcome will be worse, and the mages become even more feared and despised"



a peacefull change is pretty much what happens if you play a mage warden. and yes, everything else than a peacefull way wont work.

[iTomes]

joriandrake wrote...

iTomes wrote...

"a few generations sure, about 4 or 5 centuries atleast, and only if the mindset of humans changes and a social/scientific/industrial revolution happens"

yes, it would take time. and yes, a social or whatever revolution would be necessary. but its not impossible and surely worth the effort. besides, i dont think it would be this hard to integrate the mages. make them help the people, let them work in hospitals or whatever, allow them to show the normal people how magic can help them. usually humans dont hate what obviously helps them....

the irony is that in that case some mages would misuse their power and freedom while treating people, or they would start to believe they are special enough to be bowed to, be worshiped, or served, and it could escalate into the situation where mages rule over non-magic users with an iron grip, just as they were ruling in the past before Andraste

yes, wed propably still need templars or something to have an eye on the mages. but we dont need the tower that way, and thats something. besides, if someone becomes a tyrantic insane-by-power individuum usually has much to do with his education. because you already have to show the mages how to use theyre powers you also can teach them morale and ethics and stuff, so only a very little part will get this "i am powerfull obey me!!" thing, and this little part is easy to controll and wont be able to overtake everything....

[joriandrake]

iTomes wrote...

"if it changes peacefull, be my guest, although that won't happen, and if it is changed via force, the outcome will be worse, and the mages become even more feared and despised"

a peacefull change is pretty much what happens if you play a mage warden. and yes, everything else than a peacefull way wont work.

I am not sure, but the risk of a Circle without being overseen becoming tyrannical or misusing their powers because noone sees them was for me always too big of a chance to pick that choice, it may be just in 50 years but where there is a chance for something it is fated to happen sooner or later.

[iTomes]

joriandrake wrote...

iTomes wrote...

"if it changes peacefull, be my guest, although that won't happen, and if it is changed via force, the outcome will be worse, and the mages become even more feared and despised"

a peacefull change is pretty much what happens if you play a mage warden. and yes, everything else than a peacefull way wont work.

I am not sure, but the risk of a Circle without being overseen becoming tyrannical or misusing their powers because noone sees them was for me always too big of a chance to pick that choice, it may be just in 50 years but where there is a chance for something it is fated to happen sooner or later.

hmmm, if youre seeing it that pessimistic the only opportunity would be to kill all mages because otherwise one day someone like uldred will 1. overtake the head of the templars and then of the chantry using bloodmagic or 2. become an abomination, create more abominations and will bring devastation on a global scale.....

[The Hardest Thing In The World]

What's with all this Wynne hate? I thought she is OK as a companion, now Leliana and her "lisp" and her subterranean bunny pig, she's like Aerie only Aerie is better than her a thousand times. If only Leliana is like what was shown in the Sacred Ashes trailer.

[joriandrake]

iTomes wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

iTomes wrote...

"if it changes peacefull, be my guest, although that won't happen, and if it is changed via force, the outcome will be worse, and the mages become even more feared and despised"

a peacefull change is pretty much what happens if you play a mage warden. and yes, everything else than a peacefull way wont work.

I am not sure, but the risk of a Circle without being overseen becoming tyrannical or misusing their powers because noone sees them was for me always too big of a chance to pick that choice, it may be just in 50 years but where there is a chance for something it is fated to happen sooner or later.

hmmm, if youre seeing it that pessimistic the only opportunity would be to kill all mages because otherwise one day someone like uldred will 1. overtake the head of the templars and then of the chantry using bloodmagic or 2. become an abomination, create more abominations and will bring devastation on a global scale.....

Templars are also kept in check by the Chantry, and also somewhat by the mages and also by themself, it will not work as you descire it, not to mention the mindset of templars would simply never allow that to happen to  begin with

also, everyone needs to have a different group to oversee them, this is not exclusive to mages, works also for military, templars, or any guild


It is like the story about the wolves and sheep crossing the river, the balance has to be upheld

[joriandrake]

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

What's with all this Wynne hate? I thought she is OK as a companion, now Leliana and her "lisp" and her subterranean bunny pig, she's like Aerie only Aerie is better than her a thousand times. If only Leliana is like what was shown in the Sacred Ashes trailer.

the nug is cute

[The Hardest Thing In The World]

joriandrake wrote...

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

What's with all this Wynne hate? I thought she is OK as a companion, now Leliana and her "lisp" and her subterranean bunny pig, she's like Aerie only Aerie is better than her a thousand times. If only Leliana is like what was shown in the Sacred Ashes trailer.

the nug is cute

But it nips! If only it is possible for Oghren and myself to roast it over our campfire.

[iTomes]

"Templars are also kept in check by the Chantry, and also somewhat by the mages and also by themself, it will not work as you descire it, not to mention the mindset of templars would simply never allow that to happen to begin with



also, everyone needs to have a different group to oversee them, this is not exclusive to mages, works also for military, templars, or any guild





It is like the story about the wolves and sheep crossing the river, the balance has to be upheld"



well, im just not sure that locking someone into a tower is "holding up the balance"....

[joriandrake]

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

What's with all this Wynne hate? I thought she is OK as a companion, now Leliana and her "lisp" and her subterranean bunny pig, she's like Aerie only Aerie is better than her a thousand times. If only Leliana is like what was shown in the Sacred Ashes trailer.

the nug is cute

But it nips! If only it is possible for Oghren and myself to roast it over our campfire.

<_<

[joriandrake]

iTomes wrote...

"Templars are also kept in check by the Chantry, and also somewhat by the mages and also by themself, it will not work as you descire it, not to mention the mindset of templars would simply never allow that to happen to begin with

also, everyone needs to have a different group to oversee them, this is not exclusive to mages, works also for military, templars, or any guild


It is like the story about the wolves and sheep crossing the river, the balance has to be upheld"

well, im just not sure that locking someone into a tower is "holding up the balance"....

they are not left alone in that tower, that's what matters

[iTomes]

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

What's with all this Wynne hate? I thought she is OK as a companion, now Leliana and her "lisp" and her subterranean bunny pig, she's like Aerie only Aerie is better than her a thousand times. If only Leliana is like what was shown in the Sacred Ashes trailer.

the nug is cute

But it nips! If only it is possible for Oghren and myself to roast it over our campfire.

NUGMURDERER!!! EVIL CREATURE!! ABOMINATION! but however, the nut is really cute aaaaaannnnddd were going oftopic here xD^^

[LobselVith8]

joriandrake wrote...

iTomes wrote...

"if it changes peacefull, be my guest, although that won't happen, and if it is changed via force, the outcome will be worse, and the mages become even more feared and despised"

a peacefull change is pretty much what happens if you play a mage warden. and yes, everything else than a peacefull way wont work.

I am not sure, but the risk of a Circle without being overseen becoming tyrannical or misusing their powers because noone sees them was for me always too big of a chance to pick that choice, it may be just in 50 years but where there is a chance for something it is fated to happen sooner or later.

It's been over 700 years already. I think that time is now.

joriandrake wrote...

Templars are also kept in check by the Chantry, and also somewhat by the mages and also by themself, it will not work as you descire it, not to mention the mindset of templars would simply never allow that to happen to  begin with

also, everyone needs to have a different group to oversee them, this is not exclusive to mages, works also for military, templars, or any guild


It is like the story about the wolves and sheep crossing the river, the balance has to be upheld

The Chantry uses lyrium to keep the templars addicted and under their thumb since they control the lyrium trade. They are a poor choice to watch over anyone, especially given their inept handling of the Uldred revolt. Mages can watch over themselves. Works for the Dalish, works for Kolgrim's people, I see no reason it can't work for the Circle.

joriandrake wrote...

the nug is cute

I'll concede.

[iTomes]

joriandrake wrote...

iTomes wrote...

"Templars are also kept in check by the Chantry, and also somewhat by the mages and also by themself, it will not work as you descire it, not to mention the mindset of templars would simply never allow that to happen to begin with

also, everyone needs to have a different group to oversee them, this is not exclusive to mages, works also for military, templars, or any guild


It is like the story about the wolves and sheep crossing the river, the balance has to be upheld"

well, im just not sure that locking someone into a tower is "holding up the balance"....

they are not left alone in that tower, that's what matters

but theyll never breath fresh air and stuff that way. the human species just doesn't live in a tower, thats against its nature. i could live with a "mage-island" or something for example, where they can live without theyre magic able to bring harm and stuff, but a tower is unacceptable.

[captain.subtle]

LobselVith8 wrote...
 They are a poor choice to watch over anyone, especially given their inept handling of the Uldred revolt.

So... you would rather give them practice by producing Abominations?

Mages can watch over themselves. Works for the Dalish, works for Kolgrim's people, I see no reason it can't work for the Circle.

Last time mages watched over themselves the Blight originated, Elves were enslaved and Thousands were sacrificed for blood magic.

Modifié par captain.subtle, 05 août 2010 - 05:18 .

[joriandrake]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry uses lyrium to keep the templars addicted and under their thumb since they control the lyrium trade. They are a poor choice to watch over anyone, especially given their inept handling of the Uldred revolt. Mages can watch over themselves. Works for the Dalish, works for Kolgrim's people, I see no reason it can't work for the Circle.

Sure, except that the majority of human citizens and leaders would never believe that as the society is not mature enough, hell even in RL in this situation right now noone would allow them go unchecked, but a world which just barely got out of their own dark ages and stepped into its own medieval times would never let that happen

what works in indian or chinese society is not going to work in european one just because there it also works, the people of Ferelden have a certain culture/mindset that is not tuned to be more forgiving and understanding, if anything at all, the "western world" of Thedas is more likely to close in on their own variant of Witch Hunt/Inquisition/Crusades/War of Religions and reforms times what makes it even less likely to have a realistic chance for change in society to have the mages be looked at in a different, more positive angle

[joriandrake]

iTomes wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

iTomes wrote...

"Templars are also kept in check by the Chantry, and also somewhat by the mages and also by themself, it will not work as you descire it, not to mention the mindset of templars would simply never allow that to happen to begin with

also, everyone needs to have a different group to oversee them, this is not exclusive to mages, works also for military, templars, or any guild


It is like the story about the wolves and sheep crossing the river, the balance has to be upheld"

well, im just not sure that locking someone into a tower is "holding up the balance"....

they are not left alone in that tower, that's what matters

but theyll never breath fresh air and stuff that way. the human species just doesn't live in a tower, thats against its nature. i could live with a "mage-island" or something for example, where they can live without theyre magic able to bring harm and stuff, but a tower is unacceptable.

Every average person would fear the day the mages leave their island and start a conquest then, or recreate the sin of the mages who created the darkspawn, children would be told scary stories about the mages so they eat their vegetables otherwise the mages will come for them, nations would prepare armies against a possible and "Likely" mage attack





even if this sounds absurd this is how humans would act thanks to their nature

segregation would only make things worse, atleast now mages have some freedom to move around, even if it is mostly with a templar escort

Modifié par joriandrake, 05 août 2010 - 05:24 .

[captain.subtle]

Nobody's denying what is being done to the mages is wrong... The problem is the alternatives...

[iTomes]

"Sure, except that the majority of human citizens and leaders would never believe that as the society is not mature enough, hell even in RL in this situation right now noone would allow them go unchecked, but a world which just barely got out of their own dark ages and stepped into its own medieval times would never let that happen



what works in indian or chinese society is not going to work in european one just because there it also works, the people of Ferelden have a certain culture/mindset that is not tuned to be more forgiving and understanding, if anything at all, the "western world" of Thedas is more likely to close in on their own variant of Witch Hunt/Inquisition/Crusades/War of Religions and reforms times what makes it even less likely to have a realistic chance for change in society to have the mages be looked at in a different, more positive angle"



hmmm, you propably got a point there. but still, i think that there is a chance to stop the suppression of the mages and stuff. i mean, its a fantasy world, and unsupressed mages exist in other fantasy novels and games, too. after all, its propably rather a question how the freedome for mages is reached, not IF. because after all, its also part of the human being that it dislikes being suppressed and that continuing suppression will lead to a war or something similar after some time. and this war is going to be bloody.....

[iTomes]

captain.subtle wrote...

Nobody's denying what is being done to the mages is wrong... The problem is the alternatives...

hmmm, yes, but the question is what happens if the mages remain supressed...... one day theyll make a riseup or something and thats most likely not going to be pretty...

[captain.subtle]

iTomes wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

Nobody's denying what is being done to the mages is wrong... The problem is the alternatives...

hmmm, yes, but the question is what happens if the mages remain supressed...... one day theyll make a riseup or something and thats most likely not going to be pretty...

That is the reason I guess chantry "educates" them from birth by putting them forcibly in Mage towers....

Modifié par captain.subtle, 05 août 2010 - 05:32 .

[joriandrake]

iTomes wrote...

"Sure, except that the majority of human citizens and leaders would never believe that as the society is not mature enough, hell even in RL in this situation right now noone would allow them go unchecked, but a world which just barely got out of their own dark ages and stepped into its own medieval times would never let that happen

what works in indian or chinese society is not going to work in european one just because there it also works, the people of Ferelden have a certain culture/mindset that is not tuned to be more forgiving and understanding, if anything at all, the "western world" of Thedas is more likely to close in on their own variant of Witch Hunt/Inquisition/Crusades/War of Religions and reforms times what makes it even less likely to have a realistic chance for change in society to have the mages be looked at in a different, more positive angle"

hmmm, you propably got a point there. but still, i think that there is a chance to stop the suppression of the mages and stuff. i mean, its a fantasy world, and unsupressed mages exist in other fantasy novels and games, too. after all, its propably rather a question how the freedome for mages is reached, not IF. because after all, its also part of the human being that it dislikes being suppressed and that continuing suppression will lead to a war or something similar after some time. and this war is going to be bloody.....

DA is a dark fantasy setting, sure everyone could hold hands suddenly and sing kumbayaaa or however that is spelled, but it will not happen as it would kill the immersion of the whole world, and I say this despite me wanting equality and always picking with my main character the "Most good" options

even if there would be 5 or 6 games set all in Ferelden and they would be about 500 centuries, only in the very last o the games would there be a realistic chance for a social reform to change the mindset of the humans, but as DA2 is already in a different territory 99% of the campaign this seems unlikely, I mean it is unlikely we will ever see such thing happen in DA except if the character walks into a settlement where the mages are treated differently to begin with and the local culture is more able to accept differences

The other option is that in 500 years we go back to Ferelden and see that the society changed on its own while the focus of the DA games were on other parts of the world, giving you a feel of "ooops, I missed out on this"

And I say this knowing that changing a single state is easier than the whole world (which is pretty much equal with impossible)

Modifié par joriandrake, 05 août 2010 - 05:34 .

[LobselVith8]

captain.subtle wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
 They are a poor choice to watch over anyone, especially given their inept handling of the Uldred revolt.

So... you would rather give them practice by producing Abominations?

I think the 700+ years of Chantry oversight had blood mages and abominations directly because of the Chantry. People are willing to go to great lengths to be free.

captain.subtle wrote...

Mages can watch over themselves. Works for the Dalish, works for Kolgrim's people, I see no reason it can't work for the Circle.

Last time mages watched over themselves the Blight originated, Elves were enslaved and Thousands were sacrificed for blood magic.

The Blight? You mean the Chantry version that not even the templar Alistair buys as the truth?

Yes, the Tevinter enslaved elves, and a possible mage named Andraste (with the help of humans and elves like Shartan who likely had mages amongst them) liberated themselves from slavery. Mages have also aided in the defeat of every Blight on Thedas, and Duncan mentions how valuable mages are to the fight, including Grey Warden mages who use blood magic.

joriandrake wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry uses lyrium to keep the templars addicted and under their thumb since they control the lyrium trade. They are a poor choice to watch over anyone, especially given their inept handling of the Uldred revolt. Mages can watch over themselves. Works for the Dalish, works for Kolgrim's people, I see no reason it can't work for the Circle.

Sure, except that the majority of human citizens and leaders would never believe that as the society is not mature enough, hell even in RL in this situation right now noone would allow them go unchecked, but a world which just barely got out of their own dark ages and stepped into its own medieval times would never let that happen

what works in indian or chinese society is not going to work in european one just because there it also works, the people of Ferelden have a certain culture/mindset that is not tuned to be more forgiving and understanding, if anything at all, the "western world" of Thedas is more likely to close in on their own variant of Witch Hunt/Inquisition/Crusades/War of Religions and reforms times what makes it even less likely to have a realistic chance for change in society to have the mages be looked at in a different, more positive angle

They love the Warden regardless of whether he or she is an elf or a mage at the end of DA:O. Virtually everyone in DA:A respects the Warden, even an elven Mage, based on his reputation alone. It's basically the hero who stops the end of the world from transpiring. In light of this, I think attitudes could change. And asking for the Magi boon basically forces the issue because now the Circle is independent from the Chantry and the templars.

[joriandrake]

"They love the Warden regardless of whether he or she is an elf or a mage at the end of DA:O. Virtually everyone in DA:A "


Sure, every hero is cherished right after their victory, but the less you fit into society the quicker the people forgot about your good deeds or twist them and the hero becomes a victim of rumors and perhaps even the next villain in their stories, i think something like this is even hinted at the end of DA, and by Wynne if my memory serves me well

Modifié par joriandrake, 05 août 2010 - 05:37 .