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[iTomes]

"DA is a dark fantasy setting, sure everyone could hold hands suddenly and sing kumbayaaa or however that is spelled, but it will not happen as it would kill the immersion of the whole world, and I say this despite me wanting equality and always picking with my main character the "Most good" options



even if there would be 5 or 6 games set all in Ferelden and they would be about 500 centuries, only in the very last o the games would there be a realistic chance for a social reform to change the mindset of the humans, but as DA2 is already in a different territory 99% of the campaign this seems unlikely, I mean it is unlikely we will ever see such thing happen in DA except if the character walks into a settlement where the mages are treated differently to begin with and the local culture is more able to accept differences"



well i guess youre right at some point, still i dislike the chantry and the circle and want to kill both.... who knows, maybe ill get the chance to in one game ... besides, i guess well most likely get the chance to improve the position of mages, for its a videogame and usually we can do great but unrealistic things in videogames^^

[joriandrake]

iTomes wrote...

"DA is a dark fantasy setting, sure everyone could hold hands suddenly and sing kumbayaaa or however that is spelled, but it will not happen as it would kill the immersion of the whole world, and I say this despite me wanting equality and always picking with my main character the "Most good" options

even if there would be 5 or 6 games set all in Ferelden and they would be about 500 centuries, only in the very last o the games would there be a realistic chance for a social reform to change the mindset of the humans, but as DA2 is already in a different territory 99% of the campaign this seems unlikely, I mean it is unlikely we will ever see such thing happen in DA except if the character walks into a settlement where the mages are treated differently to begin with and the local culture is more able to accept differences"

well i guess youre right at some point, still i dislike the chantry and the circle and want to kill both.... who knows, maybe ill get the chance to in one game ... besides, i guess well most likely get the chance to improve the position of mages, for its a videogame and usually we can do great but unrealistic things in videogames^^

If you seriously are able to do it then the setting will fail in my opinion, not to mention, if you do so then an even worse organization has to step into its place

[joriandrake]

btw, what I like in the most in DA dark fantasy setting is that political and social actions get realistic reactions, and that the more sudden and less subtle some event is the more harsher the response toward it is

[iTomes]

"If you seriously are able to do it then the setting will fail in my opinion, not to mention, if you do so then an even worse organization has to step into its place" 

hmmm, i guess all we can do is waiting and seeing what the devs will do:wizard:.....

[Blessed Silence]

iTomes wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

iTomes wrote...

if we get to see wynne in da2 shell only play a sideroll..... no lose, she always was a pain in the ass.

Why do people dislike her? She is a kind, motherly figure.

hmmmm.... lets see:
1. you destroyed the ashes, im going to kill you - This I can see
2. i dislike morrigan, so im going to kill you - Huh never had this problem
3. youre i bloodmage, i do not like you anymore - Yes this I can see
4. you think about killing possible abominations, instead of telling you why you are wrong im going to kill you. - This was with Connor??

Honestly, she is a better healer than Morrigan will be so I keep her around.  And she reminds me of my mother.

I wonder how long she will be alive though?  I meanlistening to Wynne's story I was suprised to see her in DA:A.  I would have guessed after all in Ferelden the spirit would have left or drained her or something.

[LobselVith8]

joriandrake wrote...

Sure, every hero is cherished right after their victory, but the less you fit into society the quicker the people forgot about your good deeds or twist them and the hero becomes a victim of rumors and perhaps even the next villain in their stories, i think something like this is even hinted at the end of DA, and by Wynne if my memory serves me well

Saving Amaranthine shows that even people outside of Ferelden see the virtue of the Warden Commander. It's such actions that I think would impact how mages are viewed, because the Mage Warden stands out against the "evil" interpretation of the Chantry.

[iTomes]

"hmmmm.... lets see:

1. you destroyed the ashes, im going to kill you - This I can see

2. i dislike morrigan, so im going to kill you - Huh never had this problem

3. youre i bloodmage, i do not like you anymore - Yes this I can see

4. you think about killing possible abominations, instead of telling you why you are wrong im going to kill you. - This was with Connor??"



2. happened to me when i took morrigan with me into the circle...

4. nahhh in the circle quest ^^

[joriandrake]

Blessed Silence wrote...

iTomes wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

iTomes wrote...

if we get to see wynne in da2 shell only play a sideroll..... no lose, she always was a pain in the ass.

Why do people dislike her? She is a kind, motherly figure.

hmmmm.... lets see:
1. you destroyed the ashes, im going to kill you - This I can see
2. i dislike morrigan, so im going to kill you - Huh never had this problem
3. youre i bloodmage, i do not like you anymore - Yes this I can see
4. you think about killing possible abominations, instead of telling you why you are wrong im going to kill you. - This was with Connor??

Honestly, she is a better healer than Morrigan will be so I keep her around.  And she reminds me of my mother.

I wonder how long she will be alive though?  I meanlistening to Wynne's story I was suprised to see her in DA:A.  I would have guessed after all in Ferelden the spirit would have left or drained her or something.

I am not sure she would really die, I believe she would either somehow ascend or just live on like Flemeth, with the exception of using "positive energy" to do so instead of negative as normal aberrations

[iTomes]

joriandrake wrote...

btw, what I like in the most in DA dark fantasy setting is that political and social actions get realistic reactions, and that the more sudden and less subtle some event is the more harsher the response toward it is

agreed. that thing is really awesome and muuuuuch better then "awwww im so happy i defeated a dark evil monster and now everything is full of joy and peace"..^^

[joriandrake]

LobselVith8 wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Sure, every hero is cherished right after their victory, but the less you fit into society the quicker the people forgot about your good deeds or twist them and the hero becomes a victim of rumors and perhaps even the next villain in their stories, i think something like this is even hinted at the end of DA, and by Wynne if my memory serves me well

Saving Amaranthine shows that even people outside of Ferelden see the virtue of the Warden Commander. It's such actions that I think would impact how mages are viewed, because the Mage Warden stands out against the "evil" interpretation of the Chantry.

Lead byy positive example, now this is the way to go, don't await people to be too grateful however, especially the farther they live from you.

btw, is Amaranthine the city in the expansion?

also, everything has exception, that people like your mage doesn't mean they will change their opinion on all the mages, at the best it makes them consider there are more exceptions like you among them

[iTomes]

"I am not sure she would really die, I believe she would either somehow ascend or just live on like Flemeth, with the exception of using "positive energy" to do so instead of negative as normal aberrations"



flemeth lives on by taking new bodies.... i guess thats propably what the problem is. if youre becoming older the body propably needs to consume energy to remain alife, while youre body gives energy when youre young... at least thats the only thing i can imagine. so flemeth takes a young body, takes the energy to feed the spirit, becomes older, takes energy from the spirit until she can change the body...

[iTomes]

"btw, is Amaranthine the city in the expansion?"



yes, and it is part of ferelden xD^^

[joriandrake]

iTomes wrote...

"I am not sure she would really die, I believe she would either somehow ascend or just live on like Flemeth, with the exception of using "positive energy" to do so instead of negative as normal aberrations"

flemeth lives on by taking new bodies.... i guess thats propably what the problem is. if youre becoming older the body propably needs to consume energy to remain alife, while youre body gives energy when youre young... at least thats the only thing i can imagine. so flemeth takes a young body, takes the energy to feed the spirit, becomes older, takes energy from the spirit until she can change the body...

hmm, I always wondered why exactly Wynne goes with Shale to help her, and perhaps it is a plot twist to have the player meet her again in DA3 or so, with a golem-like body, now that would even shock me

[joriandrake]

iTomes wrote...

"btw, is Amaranthine the city in the expansion?"

yes, and it is part of ferelden xD^^

Just what I thought, its something like a duchy inside the kingdom as far I understand

[iTomes]

"hmm, I always wondered why exactly Wynne goes with Shale to help her, and perhaps it is a plot twist to have the player meet her again in DA3 or so, with a golem-like body, now that would even shock me"

now she shows her true nature!! burn her!!!



"Just what I thought, its something like a duchy inside the kingdom as far I understand"

precisely^^

[Meyne]

iTomes wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

iTomes wrote...

yep, but thats mainly because of the chantry who controlls the circle

wrong, it is because of human nature

the issue lies not with the chantry but at the very core of human nature and the hatred/distrust to everything different or new, and this can never be solved,  because it is not society/organization related

hmmm, at least in DA the elves solved it, and they didn't seem totally different to humans. i think the chasind solved it too. it may be a part of the human nature, but its a part you can handle. its not something that would work immidiatly, but after a few generations it propably would. i mean, in the TI, wether we like it or not, there was no deep hatred between mages and normal humans.

They didn't really solve it.  Think on the situation with the Werewolves - you still have a Dalish "mage" doing something due to an emotional nature and never giving in.  You have to convince him that while maybe he was justified in punishing his daughter's captors and son's murderers at the time, he shouldn't punish all humans that come across this curse.  And even then he argues with an "ALL HUMANS DESERVE THIS" angle, regardless if they are connected to that past suffering or not, for most of your argument - you really have to appeal deeply to get him to reconsider, focus on that "you're a protector, not this vengeful thing."

We just don't see Dalish and they are fewer in number, secretive, and really task their leaders with magic abilities with the protection of their people and lore.  You may still have jerks among them, and those that may get demons involved, but the word rarely gets out - at the greatest end, an old Dalish encampment is found, everyone from it long dead, and maybe another Dalish group found it sooner to the disaster but they won't tell you anything.  We're more aware of the Human lore because Humans have dominated, and they have a well known past of issues with Mages (Tevinter in the old days) and events (Blights) that repeat which the Chantry claims stems from those issues.

Fereldens are highly superstitious and so fear magic more - they are still "barbarians" to most of Thedas, and the fact that Freeholders own land and the Fereldens respect martial abilities above all really confuses most other nations (and makes nobility from elsewhere feel most Fereldens are insolent).  It could be that Wynne's feelings of the Circle are influenced heavily by these Fereldian notions, as well as some Orlesian ones (Chantry head is in Orlais, though Andraste was from Ferelden, so even more "home team" feelings involved).  And perhaps other countries let their mages be a bit freer (especially Tevinter, I gather they may have less hold on Blood Magic use than others), hence why perhaps in DA2 you can be a mage and still rise to power.  We've still a lot to learn about Thedas, and now we don't have Ferelden's filter and the whole Warden thing to adjust views (Warden Mages don't seem as restricted as Circle ones, as if the Templars ignore them entirely).

Wynne is a product of a Circle in Andraste's home land and has been both under the control of Orlais - the Chantry Seat right now - and Ferelden with their superstitions.  The Circle was complacent in the first Orlesian takeover and still had a small uprising after Maric was King (The Calling novel), so there would be more reason for her to see clamping down and accept it.

[joriandrake]

you know what, you are right, the elven and werewolf case actually is a good evidence of mages gone out of controll because noone kept them incheck

[Itkovian]

Wynne in DA2 would be great, I admit. Great NPC.

Itkovian

[Demx]

I don't really care much for Wynne. I just don't want to hear her to talk about how old she feels.

[LobselVith8]

Meyne wrote...

They didn't really solve it.  Think on the situation with the Werewolves - you still have a Dalish "mage" doing something due to an emotional nature and never giving in.  You have to convince him that while maybe he was justified in punishing his daughter's captors and son's murderers at the time, he shouldn't punish all humans that come across this curse.  And even then he argues with an "ALL HUMANS DESERVE THIS" angle, regardless if they are connected to that past suffering or not, for most of your argument - you really have to appeal deeply to get him to reconsider, focus on that "you're a protector, not this vengeful thing."

That has everything to do with the humans enslaving elves, betraying them after elves helped free humans with Andraste, and forcing them to either be homeless or live in a ghetto and nothing to do with the conflict mages have to endure under the grip of the Chantry. I think the countless men, women and children of the Circles who were murdered by the templars over the past 700 years because of the Rite or, as Cullen admitted, since they enjoy killing mages, might feel that the situation with the Chantry is pretty damn bad.

[Kornichon]

crap. I think the title of this thread was Wynne in Cucumberland 

[joriandrake]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meyne wrote...

They didn't really solve it.  Think on the situation with the Werewolves - you still have a Dalish "mage" doing something due to an emotional nature and never giving in.  You have to convince him that while maybe he was justified in punishing his daughter's captors and son's murderers at the time, he shouldn't punish all humans that come across this curse.  And even then he argues with an "ALL HUMANS DESERVE THIS" angle, regardless if they are connected to that past suffering or not, for most of your argument - you really have to appeal deeply to get him to reconsider, focus on that "you're a protector, not this vengeful thing."

That has everything to do with the humans enslaving elves, betraying them after elves helped free humans with Andraste, and forcing them to either be homeless or live in a ghetto and nothing to do with the conflict mages have to endure under the grip of the Chantry. I think the countless men, women and children of the Circles who were murdered by the templars over the past 700 years because of the Rite or, as Cullen admitted, since they enjoy killing mages, might feel that the situation with the Chantry is pretty damn bad.

mages also enslaved non-mages and used blood magic to dominate them in the past

and how is it different from what elves went through?

even the lenght of the werewold curse as punishment can be compared to the lenght of time since the end of mage tyranny

with one exception: that in the case of werewolves you only had to persuade a single person that it was time to let go, while in the case of mages you would have to persuade a whole culture/state, which pretty much makes it impossible

[captain.subtle]

Kornichon wrote...

crap. I think the title of this thread was Wynne in Cucumberland 

Kornichon in Blunderland would also do....

[LobselVith8]

joriandrake wrote...



mages also enslaved non-mages and used blood magic to dominate them in the past



and how is it different from what elves went through?



even the lenght of the werewold curse as punishment can be compared to the lenght of time since the end of mage tyranny



with one exception: that in the case of werewolves you only had to persuade a single person that it was time to let go, while in the case of mages you would have to persuade a whole culture/state, which pretty much makes it impossible

Tevinter tyranny still goes on, and the extremes of the Chantry and the Tevinter don't reflect the attitudes of mages like Irving and Wynne, or even misguided mages like Jowan and the unnamed blood mage who asks for mercy. Consider how many sought blood magic as a means to overthrow the Chantry during Uldred's revolt - would this have happened had they been given their freedom? Why shouldn't mages oversee themselves? Mages are needed against darkspawn and Blights, why cage them under the guard of a group that openly despises them? You deny people their freedom, and they fight back. Denying the mages their independence would only open them up for someone like Uldred, or someone much worse.

[captain.subtle]

LobselVith8 wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

mages also enslaved non-mages and used blood magic to dominate them in the past

and how is it different from what elves went through?

even the lenght of the werewold curse as punishment can be compared to the lenght of time since the end of mage tyranny

with one exception: that in the case of werewolves you only had to persuade a single person that it was time to let go, while in the case of mages you would have to persuade a whole culture/state, which pretty much makes it impossible

Tevinter tyranny still goes on, and the extremes of the Chantry and the Tevinter don't reflect the attitudes of mages like Irving and Wynne, or even misguided mages like Jowan and the unnamed blood mage who asks for mercy. .

You cuddly litlle pool of misinformation, you. Tevinter is the only place in the known world of men where mages have extra rights. And guess what, they rule Tevinter again.

Modifié par captain.subtle, 05 août 2010 - 06:33 .