442 réponses à ce sujet

[Cat Lance]

iTomes wrote...

Cat Lance wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

SoR82 wrote...
and they call this bad ass hawke? thats laughable not badass.

It appeals to the God of War crowd.

I can confirm that around ten of my friends purchased Dragon Age expecting something like God of War.

Also, missed this one before, but this is a prime example of what is WRONG with the marketing for these games. They make them look like they are something they are not. Meaning that the people who WOULD enjoy them pass them by and the people who run out and by it on opening day are pissed as hell about wasting their money.

And ppl are saying things like "trust the marketing guys to make the right decisions?" BWAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!

nahh, people who would enjoy them usually know what bioware is and dont fall for the god of war styke:wizard:

That's operating under the assumption that every person out there who discovers a love for cRPGs already knows about BioWare...which is just silly.

[the_one_54321]

Cat Lance wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Cat Lance wrote...
*head desk* You don't think that someone in marketing can hold to old outdated ideas just like some of the people in these conversations? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

There's a big difference between "someone" and "everyone." Sense and money will always win out in the end. Because money always wins and money always follows good sense.

I'm really hoping that was absolutely ****ing sarcastic. That is brainbreakingly terrible logic for you One, simple observation shows that that is entirely wrong. So, yeah, with the hoping.

You're not being cynical enough. Good sense is rarely the same as fairness or equality. Money rarely piles up for the just and even handed. Marketing only sticks to equality, fairness, or just portrayals in so far as they can't get away with using the bigotry or prejudice that will completely sell their target audiences.
You can look to this aritcle as a perfect example of it. They don't really care if their digital enhancements are insulting to women or not. They just want as many women as possible to buy their cloths, and they'll say and do anything they can get away with to achieve this.

[Cat Lance]

You seem to be mistaking me talking about Bioware getting itself more money with me making this into a women's issue, sorry, but that's just not the sort of person I am.

[the_one_54321]

Cat Lance wrote...
You seem to be mistaking me talking about Bioware getting itself more money with me making this into a women's issue, sorry, but that's just not the sort of person I am.

Then you're going to have to separate practicality from ideals. Idealistically, BioWare should provide equal marketing for both sexes. Pragmatically, BioWare is marketing for the largest number of sales.

[Cat Lance]

*headdesk* NO they aren't, this is what I'm saying, if they market to MORE people then they are gathering MORE sales.



If they market the game they have, they will attract all the people interested in that sort of game. However, atm, they market their games as if they are action adventures and only direct their marketing at teenage males.



That means they aren't attracting anyone else with their marketing and at that, since it's misrepresentation of the game itself(it's an RPG with lots of cut scenes and dialogue choices, NOT an action adventure) they are pissing off half the people they initially attracted.



I really don't know how to be more clear, unless you get over this idea that I'm living in some fanciful world that is worried about naiveties like fairness in the marketing then you are never going to really understand what I'm writing here because you're going to continue to take it to this other wackadoodle realm.

[the_one_54321]

Cat Lance wrote...
*headdesk* NO they aren't, this is what I'm saying, if they market to MORE people then they are gathering MORE sales.

But you're making the assumption that they aren't marketing to more people. I think your dismissal of the choices of the marketers is ill founded. You laughed at them making some people think it was a God of War style game, but those people bought the game, didn't they? You say that if more women gamers were aware that these games had female PC options then more of them would be all over the game. But BioWare has a solid list of games that are already known for this, so if they look into BioWare at all they'll see this.
These people don't make lots of money for marketing for no reason. Just because what they do doesn't appear reasonable at face value doesn't mean that it doesn't result in higher sales in the background. Elsewhere someone cited a paper by a psychologist (I think, but don't quote me on the profession) that showed emipirically that asking people what they want and then listening to them yeilds no real return in terms of positive reception. Marketers don't do things that we want them to do. They do things that get reactions from us that they want to see.

[Deviija]

Cat Lance wrote...
This isn't a stonewalling issue though, it's the sort of thing that marketing can fix fairly simply. Imagine an image with Marian and Mike Hawke back to back with some marketing slogan about choices blahblahblah on it, as well as a video showcasing both with maybe some footage of the male/female choice in character creation. It's the sort of thing that if they spent half a second on it, they could create extremely viable option that reach EVERYONE as opposed to cutting their nose of despite their face, by cutting out an entire demographic. Especially one that would have fierce loyalty. Many many women almost exclusively play puzzle games, fighters, and MMO's. WHY? Because in these games your sex either doesn't matter or you get to CHOOSE. If BioWare actually let people KNOW in the marketing campaign that their was choice of sex, they'd have droves of female gamers sticking to them like glue.

QFT.

Yes, showcasing both sexes on the cover and making 'choices' into a direct and visible feature of the game is something I've wanted SO much.  Ever since ME1.  With a little big of chargen customization marketing, 'Who do YOU want to be?', and some images of Lady Hawke with Bethany (for more obvious association), it would go a long, long way to help invite more prospective female games (and those that like playing female PCs in general) to the game/franchise. 

I'll reinforce the point that why many women play 'casual games' is because casual games have a higher proportion of female lead characters.  One can say the audience has led the market, but it's just a result of women being attracted to games where they are not severely ignored as a demographic, or have lady characters with the sole purpose of being objectified.  I'm not against sex selling whatsoever.  What I am saying is that marketing needs to broaden its horizons to capture more of the female demographic by appealing to the demographic.  Sex sells for women as well, just the same.  And so does seeing female protagonists/choice/strong female character portrayal in games. 

The backwards thinking here is to assume that marketing to women is not profitable, or that women are a 'minority' demographic and thus everything should be marketed toward the 'largest' demographic to sell well.  The problem with that is: If one doesn't market to them, why should one expect them to be a large market?  You need to market first, gain followers after. 

[Doc Jones]

I really like the changes, I am pleasantly suprised.

[Cat Lance]

The point of marketing is to interest new people. You can't sit on your laurels and say, well, GEEZ, if they just randomly decided to look into what our previous games were all about then they'd know what to expect from us. Why would someone do that? And marketing the game correctly would not just reach women, but men as well.

The problem with the people who thought this was a GoW clone is that that was a One Time Sale, those people are now pissed at being deceived and have now hawked or shelved those games permanently. They will not be purchasing DLC, expansions, or future BioWare games, possibly even if they make one that they WOULD like, because they will no longer trust the marketing and are pissed at BioWare ta'boot.

Modifié par Cat Lance, 06 août 2010 - 09:30 .

[the_one_54321]

Cat Lance wrote...
The point of marketing is to interest new people. You can't sit on your laurels and say, well, GEEZ, if they just decided to randomly decided to look into what our previous games were all about then they'd know what to expect from us. Why would someone do that? And marketing the game correctly would not just reach women, but men as well.

The problem with the people who thought this was a GoW clone is that that was a One Time Sale, those people are now pissed at being deceived and have now hawked or shelved those games permanently. They will not be purchasing DLC, expansions, or future BioWare games, possibly even if they make one that they WOULD like, because they will no longer trust the marketing and are pissed at BioWare ta'boot.

And you're still assuming that you can do their job better than they can. Maybe you're right. I can't really say. But I'm not really trying to make excuses for their choices when I imagine ways it might work instead of not work. I'm just assuming that they are better at their job than I would be. I don't study market reactions and trends.

[Cat Lance]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Cat Lance wrote...
The point of marketing is to interest new people. You can't sit on your laurels and say, well, GEEZ, if they just decided to randomly decided to look into what our previous games were all about then they'd know what to expect from us. Why would someone do that? And marketing the game correctly would not just reach women, but men as well.

The problem with the people who thought this was a GoW clone is that that was a One Time Sale, those people are now pissed at being deceived and have now hawked or shelved those games permanently. They will not be purchasing DLC, expansions, or future BioWare games, possibly even if they make one that they WOULD like, because they will no longer trust the marketing and are pissed at BioWare ta'boot.

And you're still assuming that you can do their job better than they can. Maybe you're right. I can't really say. But I'm not really trying to make excuses for their choices when I imagine ways it might work instead of not work. I'm just assuming that they are better at their job than I would be. I don't study market reactions and trends.

Well, I have had some training in it and quite a bit of training in psychology and sociology. I've also been extremely active in the larger gamer community for a long time. Not just here.

It would do you well to not make these assumptions on behalf of others than.

I'm not saying they should market their games as a medicinal product instead of as what it is, so I think jumping to the conclusion that my head is up my ass is fairly insulting. And if that isn't how you meant it, it's the way you've come across.

[the_one_54321]

Cat Lance wrote...
I'm not saying they should market their games as a medicinal product instead of as what it is, so I think jumping to the conclusion that my head is up my ass is fairly insulting. And if that isn't how you meant it, it's the way you've come across.

Well sorry for that, but your wording has been very confusing. Whether you think it or not, you've gone back and forth between "women should be included in the marketing" and "BioWare can earn more sales" when all I was originally talking about was whether BioWare was actually making or losing sales with their tactics. Frankly I'm still willing to believe that marketing knows what they're doing and that if they're pissing off some fans, it was calculated and deliberate. Cynical, I realize, but the end of the line is that I disagree with you about whether this will actually result in more or less sales, and that's because the more sales is the only thing the marketers care about and what they generate to make a living.

[Cat Lance]

Yes, One, adding women into the marketing would add them to the sales. They are being specifically neglected from the marketing, so it gets mentioned. My mentioning them is because of the fact that the marketing is directed at men and not at women. If dogs could buy video games, I'd have mentioned that dogs were being neglected too and that it was stupid because if they let dogs know that the game had content they'd enjoy that they'd buy it too. Thus, more money.



So, to sum up, yes, I did mention women, because of money. However, I wasn't concerned about them including women because it's "not fair" that they aren't marketing to them, but because it's stupid not to market to a large demographic that they could potentially create a fiercely loyal fanbase out of.



Was that clear? I am trying here.

[the_one_54321]

Cat Lance wrote...
Yes, One, adding women into the marketing would add them to the sales. They are being specifically neglected from the marketing, so it gets mentioned. My mentioning them is because of the fact that the marketing is directed at men and not at women.

Was that clear? I am trying here.

It's clear now, yes.

Now, for my own clarity, I don't disagree with what you've had to say in that point. Strictly speaking, I agree with everything you've said above. However, as I initially mentioned, and which I think  you already said you agree with as well, that only counts for those women that are not already familiar with BioWare's track record.

Also, I am, unlike you, willing to believe that the marketers for BioWare are aware of something we are not in that they obviously believe this method will get them more sales than another method, since they've done it before and they're continuing to stick with it.

[the_one_54321]

It's occurred to me that the link I provided may have been misleading as well. It's about the physical portrayal of women and then implies that it is connect to this through the issue representing women. That's not what I cited it for, though. I meant it to be an example of marketers doing something that didn't make sense at its face but that would have yielded obvious results had they not been caught in the act. Their marketers initially released an apology for similar images but then they kept on putting those images out anyway. They knew two things: women would want an apology for that kind of marketing, and that kind of marketing attracts women to their products. Contradictory market behavior and so contradictory marketing. They gave them the apology they wanted and continued to use the same effective images. If they didn't get caught it would have worked.

I think that perhaps there could be something similar at work here. This particular type of marketing has been used more than once by the same developer. They must think it works well for some reason.

[Cat Lance]

the_one_54321 wrote...

I think that perhaps there could be something similar at work here. This particular type of marketing has been used more than once by the same developer. They must think it works well for some reason.

I'm going with the whole, it's worked for us in the past, and they are scared of trying something new. TBTH.

Also, since it is now EA marketing BioWare's games I'm going to have to say that the fact that they have never had beasts like these before in their stable probably has to do with it as well. They are marketing these games the same way they do their other games, which happen to be nothing like these.

*edit: it's like a guy who always sold sheep trying to sell goats to the same farms they sold the sheep too. Just because they are both herd animals doesn't mean they work the same way.

Modifié par Cat Lance, 06 août 2010 - 10:22 .

[Fishy]

I was thinking about it while reading the podcast.Some idea popped into my mind.They're talking about the new creator model thing.It's would be fun if some npc would recognize some physical trait of your custom avatar.For instance a tatoo or the color of your hair.

For instance

-Hey have you heard about that Hawke guy?I heard he's rather tall with black long hair and a big red tatoo on his cheek!

[the_one_54321]

Cat Lance wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
I think that perhaps there could be something similar at work here. This particular type of marketing has been used more than once by the same developer. They must think it works well for some reason.

I'm going with the whole, it's worked for us in the past, and they are scared of trying something new. TBTH.

Also, since it is now EA marketing BioWare's games I'm going to have to say that the fact that they have never had beasts like these before in their stable probably has to do with it as well. They are marketing these games the same way they do their other games, which happen to be nothing like these.

*edit: it's like a guy who always sold sheep trying to sell goats to the same farms they sold the sheep too. Just because they are both herd animals doesn't mean they work the same way.

That's entirely possible.

[Fishy]

Sleepy Mind wrote...

OMG dwarves have vampire pale skin!!! Its over, dragon age art is crap!!!

no i am just kidding. it looks good. the redesigns aren't as dramatic as i thought they would be.

They live in cavern.i doubt they use a lot of sun cream.

[Dave of Canada]

Suprez30 wrote...

Sleepy Mind wrote...

OMG dwarves have vampire pale skin!!! Its over, dragon age art is crap!!!

no i am just kidding. it looks good. the redesigns aren't as dramatic as i thought they would be.

They live in cavern.i doubt they use a lot of sun cream.

We also happen to live right beside pools of lava.

Your sun cream does nothing.

[Wowlock]

Female Qunari ! Nice



And Female elves looks more different than human females at last. More exotic I might say



Dwarfs , Always cool to see them.

[GuaroDerp]

I feel like certain someone doesn't study marketing.



If I am wrong though, I hope you start looking into different careers, this definitely is not for you.



Who am I kidding you must be one of those kids that thinks they know RPG's because they have played The Elder Scrolls series or every Final Fantasy after the sixth one.

[Fishy]

After listening to the podcast .. They're complety passionate about  their work and i'm sure DA2 will kick ass because of this.

[Fishy]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Suprez30 wrote...

Sleepy Mind wrote...

OMG dwarves have vampire pale skin!!! Its over, dragon age art is crap!!!

no i am just kidding. it looks good. the redesigns aren't as dramatic as i thought they would be.

They live in cavern.i doubt they use a lot of sun cream.

We also happen to live right beside pools of lava.

Your sun cream does nothing.

Use Lava cream or Lyrium Cream .. or maybe Natural Dwarf Cream.