101 réponses à ce sujet

[Bozorgmehr]

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

"Arguably the best ammo available" is highly dependent on Shepherd's class and the player's playstyle.

It has nothing to do with playstyle - it is class dependent however; only the combat classes have access to Cryo Ammo.

I will come out and say that on Insanity, I personally found Squad Cryo ammo the most useful squad ammo power. Except maybe against Geth...then I'd probably go with Squad Disruptor, although it's not good enough to make me re-spec my Infiltrator (I usually run with Level 2 Disruptor and Level 4 Squad Cryo).

Squad Cryo is defenitely the best squad version around - works well on all enemies (except those without health - Harby, Scions and Praetorians). I prefer Cryo against Geth, but Disruptor Ammo is good too - if you don't mind the occasional exploding enemy.

Alamar2078 wrote...

I guess that I'll never really be a fan of Squad Cryo so we can agree to disagree. I prefer powers that let my squad break down defenses [in addition to their own powers]. Once a target is defenseless instead of freezing them I'd just as soon do a concussion blast, push, pull, shockwave, slam, neural shock, panic them with incindiary ammo, etc Fortunately Insanity difficulty is "easy enough" that even if you don't have an optimal build as long as you have a plan of some sort you can usually make things work.

I don't think the aim of this guide is about any sort of ammo fanclub seriously though, I like Cryo Ammo for its effects and (I have to admit) the shattering. I'm an Adept extremist and I hardly ever use ammo powers because Adepts don't need them. I consider the defense stripping effect rather insignificant - like I said before, I only use ammo powers to get those 1S1Ks (you need ammo powers to do this). My experience is that defenses are down faster than health even without ammo powers. The best thing about ammo powers is not the extra damage, but the other effects. Incediary Ammo causes panic, Disruptor overheats weapons and Cryo freezes enemies - very, very useful and much better than any increase in damage; they offer better survivability and improve killing power.

I believe Cryo Ammo is the best and most versatile ammo power in ME2 and I think the devs do too - Cryo Ammo is the only power that's not available to all classes; only the combat classes can use it. Understandably, it would make the other classes too powerful and it would seriously hamper the squadmates balance.

Note: I can see Cryo being useful for CQC builds but aside from Vanguard I don't do too much CQC as a rule of thumb.

Than your missing a lot of fun, every class can fight at the vanguard and fight well. Give it a try, I don't think you will be dissapointed, but beware, once you've tasted the sweetness to kill up close and personal; there's no going back

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 12 août 2010 - 01:19 .

[Alamar2078]

I might play around with a Sentinel that does CQC. Not sure how I'll like them if I compare them to Vanguard though.

[Bozorgmehr]

Alamar2078 wrote...

I might play around with a Sentinel that does CQC. Not sure how I'll like them if I compare them to Vanguard though.

I play CQC with an Adept; they can take care of themselves : Claymore Adept - Collector Ship

[Arhka]

It annoys me that Disruptor doesn't work on Husks, Abominations, or Praetorians. They were synthetic in ME1. And Cryo doesn't have shield bypass. And Kasumi should've gotten Cryo Ammo instead of Overload.

Modifié par Arhka, 12 août 2010 - 11:59 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Arhka wrote...

It annoys me that Disruptor doesn't work on Husks, Abominations, or Praetorians. They were synthetic in ME1. And Cryo doesn't have shield bypass. And Kasumi should've gotten Cryo Ammo instead of Overload.

Would love to have squadmate with Cryo Ammo - but it would make Kasumi even more OPed than she already is - I just don't like the fact that Adepts can't access Cryo Ammo - it's great to toss frozen enemies around

[Athenau]

TBH I switched to Warp Ammo on my soldier because of the awesome PEW PEW LAZORS effect. The barrier damage is just a bonus.

[Bozorgmehr]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

I have to disagree on the AP-Ammo is redundant for Infiltrators argument. Though Sniper Rifles are already strong against Armor, there is a vast difference between nagging the armor away or completely eradicating it, aka getting a bonus so strong that any armor defences don't matter anymore, which obviously boils down to more Health Damage, which also gets boosted via AP-Ammo.
Furthermore, when dealing with Barrier-Protected enemies such as the Collectors, AP-Ammo decreases the amount of total protection by the Barrier via boosting the Health Damage quite a bit. With my Infiltrator with maxed Passive Power (Assassin), Rank 2 AP-Ammo, and 3x SR Upgrade (with AP and Headshot Upgrade) I was able to 1S/1K normal Collector Drones on Level 17 with my Mantis and with Assassination Cloak managed to get Collector Guardian/Assassin Barrier down to very little left. With fully upgraded Widow and Assassination Cloak, the +70% Health Damage from Tungsten Ammo will help a great deal taking down enemies 1S/1K which otherwise would survive.
Conclusion: AP-Ammo is not redundant for Infiltrators, because the Health-Bonus Damage migitates Barrier Defence's effective protection a fair margin!

AP Ammo isn't useless, but there are better options available. Warp Ammo is better for Collectors (+50 % dmg against barriers and health - lvl 4 Heavy WA). Cryo Ammo is effective against enemies who cannot be 1S1Ked - if your SR shot punches through enemy defenses they will freeze.

I know it looks better to take them down instantly - but a frozen enemy is death anyway, they just don't know it yet

[khevan]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Furthermore, when dealing with Barrier-Protected enemies such as the Collectors, AP-Ammo decreases the amount of total protection by the Barrier via boosting the Health Damage quite a bit. With my Infiltrator with maxed Passive Power (Assassin), Rank 2 AP-Ammo, and 3x SR Upgrade (with AP and Headshot Upgrade) I was able to 1S/1K normal Collector Drones on Level 17 with my Mantis and with Assassination Cloak managed to get Collector Guardian/Assassin Barrier down to very little left. With fully upgraded Widow and Assassination Cloak, the +70% Health Damage from Tungsten Ammo will help a great deal taking down enemies 1S/1K which otherwise would survive.
Conclusion: AP-Ammo is not redundant for Infiltrators, because the Health-Bonus Damage migitates Barrier Defence's effective protection a fair margin!

I think I'm going to have to disagree with your basic premise here.  AP Ammo does nothing against Barrier, at all.  

If I remember correctly, the damage calculations made in ME2 factor ammo powers before weapon damage, i.e. the game makes a damage check for the ammo power first, then a damage check for the weapon.  In that case, the bonus from AP ammo is wasted against Barrier, since AP ammo doesn't affect Barrier in any way.  Any shots from AP ammo that hit pure health gain the damage bonus, but if it hits barrier first, no damage bonus is applied to that shot.  In this case, AP ammo would be better off on a rapid fire weapon, like an SMG or an AR, not on the Sniper Rifle, but Warp ammo (which gains the damage bonus to barrier) or Inferno Ammo would be better choices, either for the damage bonus for Warp ammo, or the ignition CC ability of Inferno (since the damage difference between AP and Inferno is so minor as to be not noticeable in game).

Modifié par khevan, 13 août 2010 - 05:06 .

[Bozorgmehr]

khevan wrote...

I think I'm going to have to disagree with your basic premise here.  AP Ammo does nothing against Barrier, at all.  

If I remember correctly, the damage calculations made in ME2 factor ammo powers before weapon damage, i.e. the game makes a damage check for the ammo power first, then a damage check for the weapon.  In that case, the bonus from AP ammo is wasted against Barrier, since AP ammo doesn't affect Barrier in any way.  Any shots from AP ammo that hit pure health gain the damage bonus, but if it hits barrier first, no damage bonus is applied to that shot.  In this case, AP ammo would be better off on a rapid fire weapon, like an SMG or an AR, not on the Sniper Rifle, but Warp ammo (which gains the damage bonus to barrier) or Inferno Ammo would be better choices, either for the damage bonus for Warp ammo, or the ignition CC ability of Inferno (since the damage difference between AP and Inferno is so minor as to be not noticeable in game).

Are you sure about this? It remains a small mystery how the formula looks exactly - where are the bonuses and multipliers situated? You're right that AP ammo does nothing to barriers, but as far as I know, the health damage will be increased. If you shoot an enemy with protection (no matter which one) and your shot destroys the defenses and damages health ammo powers still work - Incediary Ammo will ignite them and Cryo Ammo will freeze enemies. I never tested it, but this means that the AP's health damage bonus still works against Collectors with their barriers up (only against health).

This leads to another question; how is damage calculated when a single shot damages defenses and protection. Maybe the system calculates how much 'base' damage will be required to strip the defenses and whats left is used to calculate health damage.

[khevan]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Edit, edit:

Edit

khevan wrote...

I think I'm going to have to disagree with your basic premise here.  AP Ammo does nothing against Barrier, at all.  

If I remember correctly, the damage calculations made in ME2 factor ammo powers before weapon damage, i.e. the game makes a damage check for the ammo power first, then a damage check for the weapon.  In that case, the bonus from AP ammo is wasted against Barrier, since AP ammo doesn't affect Barrier in any way.  Any shots from AP ammo that hit pure health gain the damage bonus, but if it hits barrier first, no damage bonus is applied to that shot.  In this case, AP ammo would be better off on a rapid fire weapon, like an SMG or an AR, not on the Sniper Rifle, but Warp ammo (which gains the damage bonus to barrier) or Inferno Ammo would be better choices, either for the damage bonus for Warp ammo, or the ignition CC ability of Inferno (since the damage difference between AP and Inferno is so minor as to be not noticeable in game).

Are you sure about this? It remains a small mystery how the formula looks exactly - where are the bonuses and multipliers situated? You're right that AP ammo does nothing to barriers, but as far as I know, the health damage will be increased. If you shoot an enemy with protection (no matter which one) and your shot destroys the defenses and damages health ammo powers still work - Incediary Ammo will ignite them and Cryo Ammo will freeze enemies. I never tested it, but this means that the AP's health damage bonus still works against Collectors with their barriers up (only against health).

This leads to another question; how is damage calculated when a single shot damages defenses and protection. Maybe the system calculates how much 'base' damage will be required to strip the defenses and whats left is used to calculate health damage.

From the Mass Effect Gameplay Data Thread, originally started by Christina Norman.  The relevant post is #3 by Eric ****nan:

Ammo Powers

Ammo powers make a separate damage call before the initial weapon damage call, and they use their own damage multipliers on resistances and health, as Christina mentions above. 

Example:
If the initial regular weapon damage is 100 against a target with shields, then:
With Disruptor Ammo rank 1, you do an additional 20 damage to shields. If any of this damage passes through to health, it is negated (unless hitting a synthetic enemy) since this ammo power does nothing to health.
With Incendiary Ammo rank 1, you do no extra damage since this ammo type does nothing to shields.

Ammo Powers benefit from + Power Damage bonuses, such as the +15% power damage from the Blood Dragon armor. However, they do not get benefits from + Biotic or Tech bonuses or any other bonuses specific to certain types of powers.

From this, it sounds like AP Ammo, if it hits barrier, has no effect for that shot, even if the damage carries over into health.  If it hits armor or health, however, it receives the damage bonus. 

Same applies to any ammo power that affects certain defense types.

Reedit:  No, correct that, I was right.  If the ammo type affects the protection type (Warp ammo vs barriers, etc) AND it has a bonus to health damage (AP, Inferno, Warp), it will affect the health, if it hits the protection type it was made for.  If it does not hit the protection type it is effective against, the damage bonus from that ammo is negated.

For example, AP or Inferno ammo hit Armor, and the damage from the shot bleeds thru to health.  The bonus still applies because both are effective against armor and health.  If the AP or Inferno hit shields or barrier, however, they do no extra damage, because they're not effective against those protection types.  Warp ammo, then, becomes even more attractive, because it's effective against more than one protection type (barriers and armor) and effective against health.

Modifié par khevan, 13 août 2010 - 09:41 .

[khevan]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Yes, ... correct. But some people like me restrain from using powers a class is not supposed to have lorewise.

I agree with you on that aspect.  I will only take tech powers on a Soldier or an Infiltrator, for example (makes sense that a Soldier could be trained to use a tech skill) but biotics are inherent, not learned, abilities. 

I was refuting your assertion that AP ammo does extra damage to enemies with Barrier, because it doesn't.

The damage check for the ammo comes first, and if it hits a protection it isn't effective against, it's negated.  Then, the weapon damage is applied.

So, hitting Barrier with a SR with AP ammo loaded does exactly the same amount of damage to that target as a SR with no ammo power loaded.

[Alamar2078]

I won't argue about how the damage is actually calculated and applied. I just wish it were done differently.



As an example:

-- I have a weapon with a base damage of 100

-- I use Inferno Ammo [+60% vs. health & armor]

-- I shoot a Collector with 1 point of Barrier left and 150 health left



What I'd like to see is 1 point taken off the base 100 to get rid of the Barrier. This leaves 99 points left vs. health. I'd like to see Inferno Ammo activate so it does 59 points [99 * .6] damage in addition to the 99 points left thus killing the Collector.



If as the example earlier given if Inferno Ammo doesn't add damage to the shot I'd certainly feel jipped leaving a Collector with 51 points of health left.

[khevan]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

khevan wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Yes, ... correct. But some people like me restrain from using powers a class is not supposed to have lorewise.

I agree with you on that aspect.  I will only take tech powers on a Soldier or an Infiltrator, for example (makes sense that a Soldier could be trained to use a tech skill) but biotics are inherent, not learned, abilities. 

I was refuting your assertion that AP ammo does extra damage to enemies with Barrier, because it doesn't.

The damage check for the ammo comes first, and if it hits a protection it isn't effective against, it's negated.  Then, the weapon damage is applied.

So, hitting Barrier with a SR with AP ammo loaded does exactly the same amount of damage to that target as a SR with no ammo power loaded.

Yes, ... that is correct. And not what I meant, but I should have explained that better it seems. I didn't meant AP-Ammo would do extra damage against barriers, I meant that if the shot got through the barrier, the then into effect coming +70% would cause enough damage to make up for some power loss because of the Barrier. And +70% plus various other multipliers like passive skill and armor parts make out a great deal of damage with the Widow for example. As long as the bullet makes its way through the defences, the target is dead meat. That's why AP-Ammo is pretty good for Infiltrators as they lack Incendiary Ammo!

If we're talking about a single shot from a sniper rifle, then you are still incorrect.  The damage call for the ammo type is made first.  If the AP Ammo shot hits a Barrier or Shield, the bonus damage is completely negated, even if the weapon damage bleeds thru to health.  There is no bonus damage from AP ammo when hitting a barrier or shields, even if the damage is great enough to destroy the protection and still damage health.  

The damage that is done to health does not receive the +70% damage bonus from AP ammo, because that damage call was negated by the barrier.

The only way AP Ammo gains the +70% damage bonus is if the shot hits armor or health.  That's it.  If it hits shields or barrier, that  +70% damage bonus doesn't exist.

[khevan]

Alamar2078 wrote...

I won't argue about how the damage is actually calculated and applied. I just wish it were done differently.

As an example:
-- I have a weapon with a base damage of 100
-- I use Inferno Ammo [+60% vs. health & armor]
-- I shoot a Collector with 1 point of Barrier left and 150 health left

What I'd like to see is 1 point taken off the base 100 to get rid of the Barrier. This leaves 99 points left vs. health. I'd like to see Inferno Ammo activate so it does 59 points [99 * .6] damage in addition to the 99 points left thus killing the Collector.

If as the example earlier given if Inferno Ammo doesn't add damage to the shot I'd certainly feel jipped leaving a Collector with 51 points of health left.

I'd like that too, actually.  It doesn't really make sense that if a target has 1 point of barrier up, that the 99 remaining points of damage won't get a damage bonus against health.  But, that's the way it was explained that the ammo powers work, so we gotta deal with what the game gives us.  Hopefully that'll be adjusted for ME3.

[Alamar2078]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Not as far as I can tell. Just as I said earlier, I already stunned Heavy Mechs with Disruptor Ammo and SR shot even though they still had a good amount of armor when I shot at them. Given your argumentation, that should not have happened, but it did several times for me. Same goes with Cryo Ammo as others already pointed out who shot enemies with defences left and then they froze.

There is another damage call when hitting a new defence layer. How else could overlapping damage from example Disruptor Ammo get negated?


edit2://
To hopefully solve this question once and for all, I just send a PM to Christina Norman addressing this gameplay issue. Hopefully we will know for sure in some time from now on.

I think effect like "panic" and "synthetic stuns" with ammo powers are treated as separate issues aside from damage.

[khevan]

Alamar2078 wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Not as far as I can tell. Just as I said earlier, I already stunned Heavy Mechs with Disruptor Ammo and SR shot even though they still had a good amount of armor when I shot at them. Given your argumentation, that should not have happened, but it did several times for me. Same goes with Cryo Ammo as others already pointed out who shot enemies with defences left and then they froze.

There is another damage call when hitting a new defence layer. How else could overlapping damage from example Disruptor Ammo get negated?


edit2://
To hopefully solve this question once and for all, I just send a PM to Christina Norman addressing this gameplay issue. Hopefully we will know for sure in some time from now on.

I think effect like "panic" and "synthetic stuns" with ammo powers are treated as separate issues aside from damage.

Yeah, CC effects from ammo are a separate issue from damage itself.  Nothing in the Gameplay Data thread talks about the other effects, but we know that Disruptor ammo at lvl 3+ overloads enemy weapons, even if they're organic.  The damage from Disruptor ammo, however, only works against shields or synthetic enemies.  This is only anecdotal evidence, especially with no concrete word from any devs, but I think it's pretty solid anecdotal evidence that points to the two as separate, distinct parts of how the game works.

[pedal2metal]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Cryo Ammo is wonderful on Insanity - my favorite and arguably the best ammo power available. Just take a look at how I use it :  Cryo Ammo vs Geth

and how Cruc1al uses Cryo Ammo : Soldier in Dantius Tower

I hate Cyro ammo myself.  In the 2 seconds to freeze, I've usually already killed the stupid enemy.  So freezing is a complete waste in that case.  Basically, I agree with the premise that once an enemy is down to health, it's a done deal.  However, it is true that Cryo ammo can provide tactical options as once an enemy is frozen, you don't have to kill them as they are out of the picture for a few seconds allowing you to attack other enemies & get more control over the battlefield first.  Definitely agree it's an arguable point.

That being said, Cruc1al's video is amazing but not because of Cryo usage.  It's amazing because he's outfitted each gun with an appropriate ammo power & switches guns constantly based on the need at the moment.  It's a brilliant display of tactical combat prowess.  In that instance, I think the synergy of disruptor/incendiary/cryo, weapon choices, & ammo to weapon assignment along with the tactical gameplay/movement is what is amazing.  Brilliant really.  I think that video demonstrates the power of the Soldier better than any other video I've seen, not Cryo ammo.

So I'll agree that technically-speaking, cryo is arguably the best, but more importantly I think using Cyro means you're also using more advanced tactics that are more oriented towards gaining control of the battlefield rather than simply just immediate killing power.  I may have to try this route again sometime but the times I've done it, by the time anything froze, it was "a day late & a dollar short" or irrelevant in other words.  I tend to just "kill one enemy at a time" rather than trying to control the battlefield.  I guess my thinking is "dead == control".    W/Soldier, Mattock + Inferno Ammo + Adrenaline Rush == total domination.  You don't need anything else.  The Mattock Assault Rifle is simply brutal.  Even Praetorians are straight-forward with this thing w/Mattock since you can empty a clip in the AR window which is +140% damage.  So Cyro has never been a "necessary" ammo power.  Squad Disruptor + Inferno ammo is sufficient for everything imo.  So I have a real hard time using anything else myself (Cyro, Warp, Armor-Piercing, Shredder) as I just don't see the point although I suppose it's useful for exploring other playstyles/approaches.

That soldier video (Cruc1al's) was inspiring though!

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

Modifié par pedal2metal, 02 septembre 2010 - 05:31 .

[OniGanon]

Arhka wrote...

It annoys me that Disruptor doesn't work on Husks, Abominations, or Praetorians. They were synthetic in ME1. And Cryo doesn't have shield bypass. And Kasumi should've gotten Cryo Ammo instead of Overload.

Actually, ME1 Husks were considered organic.

[Skyblade012]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

V0luS_R0cKs7aR wrote...

"Arguably the best ammo available" is highly dependent on Shepherd's class and the player's playstyle.

It has nothing to do with playstyle - it is class dependent however; only the combat classes have access to Cryo Ammo.

Um, it has everything to do with playstyle.  There are people who can't stand Cryo Ammo at all because of how frozen enemies tend to fall over behind cover, which keeps you from killing them.

Playstyle rules the powers, especially bonus powers.  There are Vanguards who don't Charge, and Adepts who don't use Singularity.

Personally, I think this entire thread is a little unnecessary, since the best bonus power is always the one which is the most fun for the player, but don't even think for a minute that every decision comes down strictly to numbers.  There is no absolute best power, and how a class is played changes a lot about what powers a player enjoys.