101 réponses à ce sujet

[termokanden]

I've personally seen frozen enemies drop behind cover then re-emerge and start shooting me again. This is what I don't like about cryo blast or cryo ammo. It's probably awesome against husks, but otherwise I'd rather just kill people.



I can see how squad cryo is good. But then so is squad warp, or squad AP (the difference between those two is rather small, and it's still unclear to me which is best).

[ryoldschool]

Eric posted this three days ago in the thread "Ammo Damage Calc explained:\\"



Unfortunately, the information Christina posted is incorrect. Her explanation matched our original design, but we decided to go with a different design later in the project. I've posted some information in the gameplay data thread that should clear things up. I've also included the new information below.







"Because the ammo power does the damage call before the weapon does its regular damage, using an ammo power against the wrong resistance type can totally negate its damage. For example, if you use Armor Piercing Ammo or Incendiary Ammo against an enemy that has a single point of energy shields, your ammo power's damage will have no effect, even though your weapon's regular damage will take down the shields afterward. Ammo powers do not make 2 damage calls.







Additional effects like Disruptor Ammo's "stun robots" or "overheat weapons" only apply if the target no longer has resistances. So even if you are using Disruptor Ammo against energy shields, the shields must be completely off before the target can be stunned or overheated. "







Hope this didn't cause too much confusion. I'll be happy to answer any other questions if you post them here.

[termokanden]

So that would mean if you are a sniper with Cryo Ammo and your shot takes an enemy down to health but doesn't kill it, they will NOT be frozen, contrary to what has been posted in this thread.



Hmm.



This begs the question of what happens if, say, the target has 1 armor and 100 health, and you hit with AP Ammo. The bonus should, logically, apply to both, but it is possible the ammo damage call only affects one defense at a time and would only deal 1 damage total.

[Bozorgmehr]

pedal2metal wrote...

I hate Cyro ammo myself.  In the 2 seconds to freeze, I've usually already killed the stupid enemy.  So freezing is a complete waste in that case.  Basically, I agree with the premise that once an enemy is down to health, it's a done deal.  However, it is true that Cryo ammo can provide tactical options as once an enemy is frozen, you don't have to kill them as they are out of the picture for a few seconds allowing you to attack other enemies & get more control over the battlefield first.  Definitely agree it's an arguable point.

Cryo Ammo is best CC ammo power, it will completely disable enemies for a decent time (up to 10 s; they freeze, fall and after the effect wears off, have to get back up again. Incediary and Disruptor Ammo have CC effects too, but less effective although they also receive damage bonus against certain defenses - Cryo does not.

Skyblade012 wrote...

Um, it has everything to do with playstyle.  There are people who can't stand Cryo Ammo at all because of how frozen enemies tend to fall over behind cover, which keeps you from killing them.

Playstyle rules the powers, especially bonus powers.  There are Vanguards who don't Charge, and Adepts who don't use Singularity.

If Disruptor Ammo overheats enemy weapon; they stay behind cover untill the effect is gone - same issue like with Cryo Ammo. You're right about the falling behind cover thing, that can be a little frustrating. But the whole point of Cryo Ammo is control. A froozen enemy won't fight back; allowing Shep to focus on other enemies and once you have killed enough; get in close and finish off the leftovers.

I think powers rule playstyle - they determine what can and cannot be done. Sure, it's not that hard to complete ME2 without using powers at all, just shoot everything. But different classes allow different playstyles. A non-charging Vanguard isn't a 'real' Vanguard; Charge is what sets them apart - not using it makes VG more like a Soldier without AR. But it's a single player game, so everybody can play like the want to

pedal2metal wrote...

That being said, Cruc1al's video is amazing but not because of Cryo usage.  It's amazing because he's outfitted each gun with an appropriate ammo power & switches guns constantly based on the need at the moment.  It's a brilliant display of tactical combat prowess.  In that instance, I think the synergy of disruptor/incendiary/cryo, weapon choices, & ammo to weapon assignment along with the tactical gameplay/movement is what is amazing.  Brilliant really.  I think that video demonstrates the power of the Soldier better than any other video I've seen, not Cryo ammo.

So I'll agree that technically-speaking, cryo is arguably the best, but more importantly I think using Cyro means you're also using more advanced tactics that are more oriented towards gaining control of the battlefield rather than simply just immediate killing power.

That soldier video (Cruc1al's) was inspiring though!

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

Agreed, Cruc1al makes brilliant use of different weapons and ammo powers showing how flexible Soldiers can be. The star of the show is Cryo Ammo - freezing entire rooms with relative ease. All ammo powers are used effectively, but Cryo is in a league of its own - especially playing solo. All other ammo powers help speed up defense stripping and/or allow to one shot enemies using SG or SR; Cryo doesn't do anything like this, but it's incredibly usefull nevertheless.

Equip your squadies with Squad Cryo and you'll soon find out how useful this power really is; it's a lot better than the other ammo powers.

Skyblade012 wrote...

Personally, I think this entire thread is a little unnecessary, since the best bonus power is always the one which is the most fun for the player, but don't even think for a minute that every decision comes down strictly to numbers. There is no absolute best power, and how a class is played changes a lot about what powers a player enjoys.

This thread is an explanation what ammo powers can do and how and when to use them, it's informative, not a this-is-better-than-that thread. It's unnecessary to those who already know most of the things mentioned here, but for new or less experienced players it can be really helpful.

ME2 is not about numbers, not a best power competition. I agree completely with that. But not with "how a class is played changes a lot about what
powers a player enjoys" - available powers are restricted which does not mean there's only one way to play each class, but their specific powers do have an impact on playstyle. Playing an Engineer is entirely different to playing a Soldier for example. This thread is about ammunition and since some people consider Cryo Ammo a waste on Insanity, I tried to prove them wrong. Is it the best ammo power? No it's not - none is. Is it a waste? Hell no, it's an awesome power and very effective; great CC effect and I believe a lot of people like to shatter stuff (at least I do).

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 02 septembre 2010 - 12:06 .

[Bozorgmehr]

termokanden wrote...

So that would mean if you are a sniper with Cryo Ammo and your shot takes an enemy down to health but doesn't kill it, they will NOT be frozen, contrary to what has been posted in this thread.

Ammo powers only affect the first layer of protection they hit. So yes, using SR against an enemy with some shields left having AP ammo equiped - the AP ammo doesn't do anything at all.

Hmm.

This begs the question of what happens if, say, the target has 1 armor and 100 health, and you hit with AP Ammo. The bonus should, logically, apply to both, but it is possible the ammo damage call only affects one defense at a time and would only deal 1 damage total.

In your example the AP damage bonus only works against the tiny piece of armor left, but no bonus against health.

Only exception is while using SG - they fire 8 pellets and damage is calculated per pellet, so using SG in you example will result in 1 pellet receiving AP bonus against armor, all other pellets receive bonus vs health. This makes SG most effective ammo using weapons, because as long as you hit enemy health ammo effects start working. This explains why the Inferno CC effect works even against protected enemies; same with Cryo - protected enemies still freeze if shot goes through protection.

[termokanden]

Yeah but people here have reported that with a sniper rifle they could punch through protection and freeze in one shot. Either that is wrong, or the ammo calls explanation is wrong.

Oh that was actually you:

Cryo Ammo is effective against enemies who cannot be 1S1Ked - if your SR shot punches through enemy defenses they will freeze.

I'm not trying to attack you, I am genuinely interested in whether this is true or not

Seems to me Cryo Would make one call first. Oh, the target is protected, so no freezing. Then you punch through defenses using normal damage.

Modifié par termokanden, 02 septembre 2010 - 12:22 .

[Bozorgmehr]

My mistake, I tried it again and it doesn't work - confused SG with SR. I use Viper most and the freezing effect works quite well using it, though you have to remove protection first. When protection is gone, every SR shot will grant a 100% chance to freeze target.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 02 septembre 2010 - 12:34 .

[termokanden]

Right, OK. But it's a good point about shotguns that they take better advantage of ammo powers. Quite interesting.

[ryoldschool]

The damage calc seems clear to me, but for AP ammo vs one point armor and health, you should get the 70% against both armor and health. The calc looks at the defense then does the calc. In the other thread they are talking about shotguns and that they make a separate calc for each pellet, so they think you can freeze a guy with some protection with one shot ( actually 8 pellets from the sg ). This would be why multiple shots are required to do the freezing.

[Bozorgmehr]

It sure is interesting. SG basically work like a 8 shot weapon fired in one blast thus all damage and effects are determined for each pellet. So when using Inferno Ammo on SG and shooting (killing) a armored enemy, SG will benefit the 60% bonus vs armor on all pellets needed to take it down plus the remaining pellets touching enemy health benefit the damage over time/AoE panic effect too. These effects stack, thus increasing chance to ignite nearby enemies (Inferno effect; 3 m radius) considerably. Very nice.

[OniGanon]

I have stood back and watched Miranda repeatedly freeze a Krogan on Omega. It never got to fire a shot or move a step. All it did was stand up, get frozen, fall back down, repeat. Its regen was enough that this cycle went on for quite a while before I took pity and punched it to death.

With Squad Cryo, an enemy down to health is no longer your problem (as long as your squad is alive anyway). It doesn't matter if you can't kill them when they fall behind cover; they are effectively dead. As soon as they get up, your teammates will freeze them again, they will fall back down, and the cycle repeats until they die. Instead of worrying about the enemy that fell behind cover, you should just strip the defense of the next enemy and do it over again. And then when enough enemies are frozen, Cloak and shatter some faces upon your mighty elbow!

Bozorgmehr wrote...
My mistake, I tried it again and it doesn't work - confused SG with SR. I use Viper most and the freezing effect works quite well using it, though you have to remove protection first. When protection is gone, every SR shot will grant a 100% chance to freeze target.

Don't think the Viper has 100% chance, but it's very high chance anyway.

Modifié par OniGanon, 02 septembre 2010 - 03:46 .

[Simbacca]

OniGanon wrote...

I have stood back and watched Miranda repeatedly freeze a Krogan on Omega. It never got to fire a shot or move a step. All it did was stand up, get frozen, fall back down, repeat. Its regen was enough that this cycle went on for quite a while before I took pity and punched it to death.

With Squad Cryo, an enemy down to health is no longer your problem (as long as your squad is alive anyway). It doesn't matter if you can't kill them when they fall behind cover; they are effectively dead. As soon as they get up, your teammates will freeze them again, they will fall back down, and the cycle repeats until they die. Instead of worrying about the enemy that fell behind cover, you should just strip the defense of the next enemy and do it over again. And then when enough enemies are frozen, Cloak and shatter some faces upon your mighty elbow!

Exactly.  To anyone that believes Squad Cryo is not that big of a help, I have to ask just one question: have you played an insanity Vanguard?  Of course an experienced Vanguard player could get through without it, but the point is the hivemind's evaluation of the Vanguard's capability on insanity did a 180 once people discovered the effectiveness of Squad Cryo.

Modifié par Simbacca, 02 septembre 2010 - 04:18 .

[Kronner]

Simbacca wrote...

Exactly.  To anyone that believes Squad Cryo is not that big of a help, I have to ask just one question: have you played an insanity Vanguard?  Of course an experienced Vanguard player could get through without it, but the point is the hivemind's evaluation of the Vanguard's capability on insanity did a 180 once people discovered the effectiveness of Squad Cryo.

To be fair, the faster you kill the less useful squad Cryo ammo is. I do not think it makes THAT much of a difference, sure they will freeze few guys per mission, nice bonus AND it prevents for example Thane from activating Shredder Ammo. But I would not call it an integral or gamechanging ability. Still it is the most versatile squad Ammo (though squad Inferno is pretty good too).

Modifié par Kronner, 02 septembre 2010 - 04:34 .

[JaegerBane]

termokanden wrote...

I've personally seen frozen enemies drop behind cover then re-emerge and start shooting me again. This is what I don't like about cryo blast or cryo ammo. It's probably awesome against husks, but otherwise I'd rather just kill people.

You've hit the nail on the head. Ultimately the inability for Cryo to do any actual damage combined with this major irritation of allowing enemies to hide behind cover to a more effective degree than they did before being frozen just annoys the living daylights out of me.

Add to the fact that Cryo abilitiies require time to take effect and ultimately, they become more trouble than they're worth for me. The only exception is squad cryo ammo, and I don't have to see why I should have to dump 10 points into a power before it starts being useful.

[JaegerBane]

OniGanon wrote...
With Squad Cryo, an enemy down to health is no longer your problem (as long as your squad is alive anyway). It doesn't matter if you can't kill them when they fall behind cover; they are effectively dead. As soon as they get up, your teammates will freeze them again, they will fall back down, and the cycle repeats until they die. Instead of worrying about the enemy that fell behind cover, you should just strip the defense of the next enemy and do it over again. And then when enough enemies are frozen, Cloak and shatter some faces upon your mighty elbow!

I've heard this argument before. I don't really understand why the ability to constantly re-freeze an opponent is somehow better than stunning them or making them do the fire-dance like Disruptor and Inferno ammo do.

I think there is a relative aspect here. Cryo Ammo isn't a bad ammo by any means - it just leaves a lot to be desired compared to the other commonly used ammo powers. Do I want my opponent to immobilised and not shooting standing up where I can see him, or lying down where I can't? Seems like a simple question to me. The fact that the other ammos actually assist me in doing damage as well essentially renders the question moot.

[sinosleep]

Squad cryo's usefulness depends largely on how you play your class. If you are sitting in the back then it can be a giant pain in the ass. The whole falling down behind cover does more harm than good (they pop back up at inopportune times and start firing at you again while you are aiming at someone else), if you are playing aggressively though them falling down isn't an issue since you're GOING to run up to them any way. It's why on my vanguards I love it and why on my infiltrator I use it on all the guns except the widow.

That way any enemies I'm sniping at aren't going to be falling down (if enemies you're shooting with the widow are getting frozen something is wrong, as they should be dead) and any enemies I'm using any other weapons on are going to be up close and personal so them freezing isn't an issue.

If you're using another sniper rifle though, or are playing a class that's using the smg from range than yeah, cryo ammo can definitely do more harm than good.

Modifié par sinosleep, 02 septembre 2010 - 04:54 .

[Kronner]

sinosleep wrote...

Squad cryo's usefulness depends largely on how you play your class. If you are sitting in the back then it can be a giant pain in the ass. The whole falling down behind cover does more harm than good (they pop back up at inopportune times and start firing at you again while you are aiming at someone else) when you're trying to hit people from range. If you are playing aggressively though them falling down isn't an issue since you're GOING to run up to them any way. It's why on my vanguards I love and why on my infiltrator I use it on all the guns except the widow.

That way any enemies I'm sniping at aren't going to be falling down (if enemies you're shooting with the widow are getting frozen something is wrong, as they should be dead) and any enemies I'm using any other weapons on are going to be up close and personal so them freezing isn't an issue.

If you're using another sniper rifle though, or are playing a class that's using the smg from range than yeah, cryo ammo can definitely do more harm than good.

Yes, that is exactly how it is.

[Simbacca]

JaegerBane wrote...

OniGanon wrote...
With Squad Cryo, an enemy down to health is no longer your problem (as long as your squad is alive anyway). It doesn't matter if you can't kill them when they fall behind cover; they are effectively dead. As soon as they get up, your teammates will freeze them again, they will fall back down, and the cycle repeats until they die. Instead of worrying about the enemy that fell behind cover, you should just strip the defense of the next enemy and do it over again. And then when enough enemies are frozen, Cloak and shatter some faces upon your mighty elbow!

I've heard this argument before. I don't really understand why the ability to constantly re-freeze an opponent is somehow better than stunning them or making them do the fire-dance like Disruptor and Inferno ammo do.

Except for some enemies, like the Krogan his example.  Krogan don't fire dance.

JaegerBane wrote...

I think there is a relative aspect here. Cryo Ammo isn't a bad ammo by any means - it just leaves a lot to be desired compared to the other commonly used ammo powers. Do I want my opponent to immobilised and not shooting standing up where I can see him, or lying down where I can't? Seems like a simple question to me. The fact that the other ammos actually assist me in doing damage as well essentially renders the question moot.

I think most that advocate Squad Cryo would agree, which is why we have our Shepard's use other ammo types.  The key word is Squad.  I'm noticing in the discussion here many that dislike Cryo ammo speak against it as if Shepard is using it.  Those are speaking for Squad Cryo aren't using it on their Shepards.  Of course there's your argument for a skill not needing 10 points before being useful; though value is eye of the beholder, or perspective of each player, so to speak.

Modifié par Simbacca, 02 septembre 2010 - 04:58 .

[Simbacca]

Kronner wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

Squad cryo's usefulness depends largely on how you play your class. If you are sitting in the back then it can be a giant pain in the ass. The whole falling down behind cover does more harm than good (they pop back up at inopportune times and start firing at you again while you are aiming at someone else) when you're trying to hit people from range. If you are playing aggressively though them falling down isn't an issue since you're GOING to run up to them any way. It's why on my vanguards I love and why on my infiltrator I use it on all the guns except the widow.

That way any enemies I'm sniping at aren't going to be falling down (if enemies you're shooting with the widow are getting frozen something is wrong, as they should be dead) and any enemies I'm using any other weapons on are going to be up close and personal so them freezing isn't an issue.

If you're using another sniper rifle though, or are playing a class that's using the smg from range than yeah, cryo ammo can definitely do more harm than good.

Yes, that is exactly how it is.

Well yeah, that too

[OniGanon]

Simbacca wrote...
Those are speaking for Squad Cryo aren't using it on their Shepards.

Actually, I use it on every one of my guns in all missions bar Geth ones (where I use Disruptor).

[sinosleep]

I use it on everything but the widow. Since heavy disrupter/warp will save you a shot against legionnaires/harbinger/etc. Everything else though I use cryo as well, just to make sure my own targets are frozen as well as surrounding ones. Even on Geth missions. I find the freezing to be more reliable than the weapon overheat or the stumbling that you sometimes get with disrupter. Sometimes neither of those effects goes off, whereas with cryo enemies will ALWAYS freeze.

On vanguards I do tend to use inferno on myself (fire dance works even on fully shield bystanders), although I am using cryo on everything on my current vanguard just to see how it plays.

Modifié par sinosleep, 02 septembre 2010 - 05:29 .

[numotsbane]

Generally speaking, I set whatever power that is effective against the defense that particular weapon is ineffective against. the exception is heavy pistols, which I always give cryo if I can. so SMGs don't get disruptor because they rip through shields, they get incend. or AP instead.

I'd add to the anti blood pack part that incendiary ammo stops regen, which is absolutely awesome on insanity.

Also I found a warp Ammo v AP ammo against collectors video, I'll track it down again if you don't have it/ want it.

numot.

[Simbacca]

OniGanon wrote...

Simbacca wrote...

Those are speaking for Squad Cryo aren't using it on their Shepards.

Actually, I use it on every one of my guns in all missions bar Geth ones (where I use Disruptor).

My mistake then.

numotsbane wrote...

Also I found a warp Ammo v AP ammo against collectors video, I'll track it down again if you don't have it/ want it.

I've never seen that one but either way, it doesn't really matter.  As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, there is no need at all for AP vs Warp ammo debate because they both are bonus powers and as such can be respecced in and out at will.  That's different than say AP vs Incendiary because classes can't trade those two so that only one is a part of Shepard's skillset at a time.

[PsyrenY]

JaegerBane wrote...

I've heard this argument before. I don't really understand why the ability to constantly re-freeze an opponent is somehow better than stunning them or making them do the fire-dance like Disruptor and Inferno ammo do.

Frozen/Ragdolled enemies carry a +100% damage taken debuff - the other CCs you mentioned do not.

[OniGanon]

Freeze also lasts longer.