101 réponses à ce sujet

[Tang Tsu]

Difficulty has a lot to do with this. Insanity means that virtually every enemy is going to have a good bit of armor, while only a few will have barriers and shields. Playing as a stealth/sniper Infiltrator, I would always pick AP over Disruptor or Warp. The vast majority of shielded enemies I can 1s1k with AP still on, meaning Disruptor is only useful on the occasional shielded boss type mobs. Even there, whip out the SMG, use squad overload, problem solved.



Cryo and Incendiary are similar to most biotic powers... fun toys for lower difficulties. As a sniper, I want my damage up front, between the eyes, not dribbled out while the guy dances around. Incendiary MIGHT be useful on Insanity when playing as a class or with squadmates that cant stop health regen on bloodpacks, but thats a very limited scenario. Same for Cryo on husks.

[Alamar2078]

I don't think that I'd call Cryo & Incendiary "toys for lower difficulties".



************ Squad Cryo discussion **********************



For 1S1K specialists I don't see Squad Cryo as being particularly useful as Shep won't be freezing anyone [they'll be dead before they freeze]. The squadmates won't likely be able to take much advantage of it because they're likely at a far enough range that they won't get enough shots at defense stripped enemies to make the power worthwhile.



I can see it being useful for Sheps that "nickle & dime" their enemies to death as the squadmates would tend to be closer and have many more chances to get a freeze in. Even through none of my Vanguards ever found it particularly useful on Insanity I can theoretically see it's usefulness in order to open up charges with enemies that are out of action longer than a "fire dance" would cause.



************* Inferno Ammo ********************



Having an Ammo power around that does good damage to health & armor is always worth it. Inferno ammo fits the bill nicely here. The added benefit of a fire-dance for those guys that you don't happen to kill is certainly handy as they'll usually stay out of cover long enough for the next shot or two to finish them off. Taking Inferno also means that [basically] you don't need to take AP and can take a different bonus power that doesn't overlap as much.



*******************************************************************************



For Soldiers you probably want to be spamming AR. To do this effectively most of your powers should have really short cooldowns or [even better] should be ammo powers that are used at the beginning of the mission and are rarely changed. This leaves you the ability to spam AR to your heart's content and you also have the flexibility to go with the Ammo types that best suit your weapons & the mission at hand.



Given this why wouldn't you want to invest in some ammo powers that will be useful? What else are you going to spend your points on?



For other classes what are the builds you'd recommend if you don't take ammo powers?

[Alamar2078]

BTW: My loadout depends on mission [duh] but I generally go with ...



Main weapon: Ammo power to strip defenses [Disruptor, Inferno, or Warp Ammo as appr]

Pistol: Ammo power useful vs. health & armor if possible [Often Inferno]



After defenses are stripped I will often either use a Shep power ; continue firing with main weapon that may or may not be effective vs. health ; or switch to pistol if I have the leisure time.

[Tang Tsu]

To each his own, but I micromanage my squad. If I'm not playing as an infiltrator I stack powers on mobs pretty hard, meaning Incendiary will rarely have time to take effect. If you generally let your squadmates do their own thing then the random CC effect might have some benefit, but I prefer to be more deliberate.

[Simbacca]

I may need to update the first post here based on some test runs I did last night.  I detailed it in the Revenant thread but since it pertains more to Ammo power selection on weapons with high RoF, I feel it belongs here too.  Also, I didn't want to lose this either when/if that thread eventually fades.

Simbacca wrote...

Kronner wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

I've been inspired.

Awesome video, Revenant never gets old

I've been inspired too - The Power of Revenant

Glad to see my prodding work; surprised how quickly too!

Great videos guys, however I have a bit of a theory of how that could have been even more efficient.

Yesterday was my second time getting a chance to pay around with the Revenant so I ran a little experiment.  First I'll say my Soldier had Hardened AR, Inferno Ammo, Squad Cryo Ammo, Commando, and 1pt Slam.  The two missions for this experiment so far were Jack's loyalty and Grunt's loyalty, and it goes without saying this was on insanity. 

Some background first; the other day I noticed Inferno Ammo not really panicking enemies all that long.  I also noticed with the Rev's high RoF, once the targets got down to health the Inferno DoT never really gets a chance to tick.  I mean really, with a machine gun like the Rev, the targets always die before you would stop firing, but if you stop firing too soon, they won't stay panicked for more than a second before shooting at you again.  My hypothesis was that unless shooting at very highly armored targets (bosses, Scions, Harby, Gunships), it may be more efficient to use Cryo Ammo on the Rev!

To test, I set out to do both the above mentioned loyalty missions twice; once with Inferno on both the Rev and the Viper, the other with Squad Cryo on the Rev and Inferno on the Viper.  Intentionally I thought I had stacked this experiment in Inferno Ammo's favor, since both missions featured armored organic enemies (Varren, Klixen, Vorcha, Krogan).  Surprisingly what I discovered is that for both missions, I cleared the areas in about the same amount of time, if not a little faster(!), with Cryo Ammo on the Rev rather than Inferno!  In addition to similar run times, it is a fact that I spent far less time with my screen pulsating red during the Cryo runs than the Inferno runs! 

What ended up happening is this:  with Inferno ammo on the Rev, all four of those enemy types had their armor stripped off a little faster, however it took longer to get through their health (due to Inferno damage changing to DoT once hitting health instead of armor).  The DoT of Inferno never gets utilized to full effect anyway; when using the Rev one never stops shooting the meat grinder till nothing but shredder jiblets remain.  With Squad Cryo Ammo on the Rev, all four of those enemy types still had their armor stripped quickly (after all, the Rev does have x1.4 armor, x1.2 shields, x1.2 barriers, x1.0 health) but a hair slower in comparison nonetheless.  However, enemies died faster once they got to health, usually shattering once their health bar dropped only half way.  In addition to dying much faster, enemies stay frozen longer than they do panicking from fire, making it easier to switch targets when fighting multiple enemies once you see the first start to freeze. 

If only I was playing on the PC instead of the 360.  I could of made a video showcasing my findings much clearer and much easier than this mass of text... @sinosleep and kronner; I encourage both you to try the same runs again but with Cryo Ammo on the Rev to see if we can duplicate/verify my results.

[Kronner]

What about Disruptor Ammo? I usually went Heavy, but the explosions it may cause are pain in the ass for everyone but long range Shep. For close/mid-range Soldiers I am gonna go squad from now on. It is safer.

[Khuutra]

I can't see a casual dismissal of Inferno Ammo meant seriously for anything except for Infiltrators. Of course it's not great for Infiltrators! Your sniper rifles already get +50% against armor and another +50% against heads!



Now, give it to a Vanguard, and it is magical. In fact, after my Insanity runthrough, I'm not convinced a Vanguard ever really needs anything else.

[Alamar2078]

I running through NG+ on a Vanguard and boy it plays differently at the beginning than at the end. Either way having Inferno Ammo and each shotgun pellet making it's own damage and ammo power calls in sequence is a life saver.

[Merlin 47]

Khuutra wrote...

I can't see a casual dismissal of Inferno Ammo meant seriously for anything except for Infiltrators. Of course it's not great for Infiltrators! Your sniper rifles already get +50% against armor and another +50% against heads!

Now, give it to a Vanguard, and it is magical. In fact, after my Insanity runthrough, I'm not convinced a Vanguard ever really needs anything else.

I play a Soldier and I find Inferno ammo useless for him; I rely more on Shredder.  Like I said, maxed out, for some reason the Inferno ammo is not doing enough damage (even with the additional "burn" effect).

[Athenau]

MOAR revenant vids please!

[Tony Gunslinger]

Shredder definately makes killing red bar guys faster, in fact I seriously considered it for my engineer. But I can't justify using it soley based on pure damage vs. health. Inferno, warp, cryo and ap ammos all have bonuses vs. defenses and CC effects that makes all situations easier. When I used heavy shredder ammo on my soldier, it can kill regular guys instantly point blank range, but getting through defense was noticeablely slower and it has no CC effect. It's a pure damage contest, but that's between you and one guy... you just can't hose down 2-3 guys at once with Revy + shredder ammo, but Inferno and cryo ammo can neutralize the other 2 while you take less damage.

[Khuutra]

Merlin 47 wrote...

Khuutra wrote...

I can't see a casual dismissal of Inferno Ammo meant seriously for anything except for Infiltrators. Of course it's not great for Infiltrators! Your sniper rifles already get +50% against armor and another +50% against heads!

Now, give it to a Vanguard, and it is magical. In fact, after my Insanity runthrough, I'm not convinced a Vanguard ever really needs anything else.

I play a Soldier and I find Inferno ammo useless for him; I rely more on Shredder.  Like I said, maxed out, for some reason the Inferno ammo is not doing enough damage (even with the additional "burn" effect).

Shredder? What difficulty do you play on?

[SupidSeep]

I don't know if someone has put this up but AP ammo might be an temporary option to considered for Soldiers/Vanguards in missions where Incendiary ammo's advantage are not in play. For instance, Grunt's loyalty mission deals mostly with hoards of varren and klixin which can't be panicked AFAIK and will be killed faster with AP ammo. Same with the Thresher maw. Incendiary ammo only has an advantage AFTER you kill the maw ...

The Reaper IFF mission is a more extreme example where Incendiary is definitely inferior to AP.

Vanguards will do better with AP over Incendiary for mission largely Involving Synthetics (especially armored security 'mechs); Soldiers still have Disruptor to fall back on.

Basically, Incendiary's main advantages over AP are the health regeneration stoppage and panick effect against sapient organics - in missions/situations whether these are not in play, AP wins Incendiary. IMO, sapient organics dominate the majority of combat encounters, so Incendiary will be more appreciated than AP overall, but for those players looking to maximise advantages and have eezo to spend on redistributing points, AP is situationally superior.

Modifié par SupidSeep, 28 septembre 2010 - 05:27 .

[Simbacca]

SupidSeep wrote...

...The Reaper IFF mission is a more extreme example whether Incendiary is inferior to AP.

Yes, AP is barely better than Incendiary here, but it's so close it's not worth losing a different, more unique bonus power for.  With that being said, I'd argue that Cryo > AP here anyway (there are more Husks than anything else, and it only takes a second to switch to one of the other ammos for the Scions).

SupidSeep wrote...

Vanguards will do better with AP over Incendiary for mission largely Involving Synthetics (especially armored security 'mechs); Soldiers still have Disruptor to fall back on...

Vanguards could bring along Zaeed with Squad Disruptor or just use Cryo (works really great with high-damage shotguns, instafreeze) instead of losing out on a different, more unique bonus power.


Yes Tungsten is the most damaging single ammo power versus armored synthetics (Fenris, Loki mechs), but I'd still argue that Disruptor or Cryo works better, for the crowd control.  But really anything works, I've torn through these types of mechs with Inferno.  I mean really, when was the last time anyone had trouble with Fenris or Loki mechs?  I've only ever played on Insanity and in all my playthroughs, including the very first, I've never had a near death due to Fenris or Loki mechs.

Modifié par Simbacca, 28 septembre 2010 - 05:29 .

[ryoldschool]

On the Reaper IFF squad cryo is better than squad AP by about 6 percent faster. I did a study and posted it here before ( don't know how to insert a link ). I ran four sets of teammates each with squad cryo and squad ap and cryo was always faster.

[SupidSeep]

Cryo's freeze effect is SLOW.  Freezing targets will still be recognised as targets and be attacked by squadmates and by most players in the heat of combat.  This is perfectly fine against normal enemies, but causes a problem with kill efficiency against husks - you & your squad will tend to waste shots / powers on freezing husks while said attacks can be directed at fresh targets.

Another problem I noticed with cryo effects on husks is that frozen huskes do not shatter consistantly.  Under certain conditions, a husk can freeze and NOT shatter.  This also occurs on other targets, but is a special concern for Cryo because its effectiveness against husks hinges on the instakill effect by shattering.

You may not have a significant problem with killing mechs with Incendiary ammo, but the FACT remains that AP is definitely superior than Incendiary against them - marginal vs the Armour protection, but significant against health.  Let us be objective here.

As mentioned, AP is situationally superior than Incendiary when the regen stoppage and panic effect is not in play.  We should present this as an option, state pros/cons and leave the decision on whether to spend eezo on Advanced Training / Retrain Powers to swap in AP ammo as a bonus power for specific missions to the individual player. 

[Simbacca]

Yes because my little thread forces people not to make their own choices... <_<

I've never had a Husk freeze and not shatter.  If that has happened to you, well I don't know what to say about that rare bug.  Squadmates may waste a couple of extra shots on a freezing Husks, but you say Shepard too?  The player should know enough to switch targets.

Stay objective here, what more do you want?  I did agree that AP is the most damaging ammo power to use on mechs, for both their armor and health.  I simply said that I prefer Disruptor for it's control crowd versus synthetics, and without that I like Cryo, again because of the crowd control.  My point was no matter what you choose, Disruptor or AP, the player would do fine versus mechs.  The comment about Inferno was to support that; if this obviously sub-par choice works fine against these low-threat enemies, then surely the player would do fine no matter what they choose between the crowd control of Disruptor or the damage of AP.  It was not at all an endorsement of Inferno in that situation.

Modifié par Simbacca, 28 septembre 2010 - 08:00 .

[Kronner]

IMHO Tungsten Ammo is a waste (that means I'd rather have other bonus talent any day) unless you want to max SR damage for the Infiltrator.

[Tony Gunslinger]

SupidSeep wrote...

Cryo's freeze effect is SLOW.  Freezing targets will still be recognised as targets and be attacked by squadmates and by most players in the heat of combat.  This is perfectly fine against normal enemies, but causes a problem with kill efficiency against husks - you & your squad will tend to waste shots / powers on freezing husks while said attacks can be directed at fresh targets.

Another problem I noticed with cryo effects on husks is that frozen huskes do not shatter consistantly.  Under certain conditions, a husk can freeze and NOT shatter.  This also occurs on other targets, but is a special concern for Cryo because its effectiveness against husks hinges on the instakill effect by shattering.

You may not have a significant problem with killing mechs with Incendiary ammo, but the FACT remains that AP is definitely superior than Incendiary against them - marginal vs the Armour protection, but significant against health.  Let us be objective here.

As mentioned, AP is situationally superior than Incendiary when the regen stoppage and panic effect is not in play.  We should present this as an option, state pros/cons and leave the decision on whether to spend eezo on Advanced Training / Retrain Powers to swap in AP ammo as a bonus power for specific missions to the individual player. 

A husk with a sliver of health is still going to run up against your squad and sock them, and they can't use their powers. A frozen husk with a lot of health left will do absolutely nothing while you and your squad can cooldown and attack other enemies. The kill rate idea you talk about doesn't consider that when you're in a battle of attrition (like hordes of husks) you will lose. A few husks, AP ammo rapes them. But 15 husks coming from 4 different directions, you and your don't have enough bullets in one clip to kill them before they touch your team. You'll have to produce such an enormous amount of damage to keep them at a steady distance for a length period of time that it is currently impossible to achieve with any weapon and class build without cheaing. With cryo ammo, you freeze 2-3 of them, then shoot 2-3 new husks. With AP ammo, you are forced to either kill the first set while the second set closes in the distance. In a battle of attrition, squad cryo wins.

[SupidSeep]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

A few husks, AP ammo rapes them. But 15 husks coming from 4 different directions, you and your don't have enough bullets in one clip to kill them before they touch your team. You'll have to produce such an enormous amount of damage to keep them at a steady distance for a length period of time that it is currently impossible to achieve with any weapon and class build without cheaing. With cryo ammo, you freeze 2-3 of them, then shoot 2-3 new husks. With AP ammo, you are forced to either kill the first set while the second set closes in the distance. In a battle of attrition, squad cryo wins.

Ok, you hit it fair on the mass husks attack, so I have to admit squad cryo will be best for IFF.  Nontheless, I still hate the aspect that Cryo's Freeze is SLOW.  I've had more than my share of freezing huskes running in close enough to club me before they freeze solid (or freezing korgan getting of that last shot that killed my char) - I guess I hate the lack of 'instant-kill'.

I think the non-shattering frozen husk can occur when you hit said husk with a effect that cause it to "stumble" just before it freezes.  My favourite class is a Reave-Vanguard with Inferno & Squad Cryo - and over the last 8 months I've seen a lot of frozen husks not shattering (mostly in kneeling positions that toppled over).  Normal huskes aren't that much of a problem, but a glowing abomination left in such a position can be rather inconvienent - especially when I already have my hands full with other active huskes / abominations running after me.

@ Simbacca:

I apologise for not properly understanding your position and I'm sorry I got you riled up for nothing important.   I never used my squadmates as "ammo-providers" so 'borrowing' ammo power is absent from my menu.

Thus said that would leave Varren / Klixen missions where AP ammo might be considered a viable choice?  I'm just thinking that Soldiers have to sink 3 points into Disruptor before unlocking Incendiary and another 3 points before unlocking Cryo. 

(P.S. Wiki says klixens are fire-resistant - didn't know that though that could explain why killing them with Incendiary wasn't as easy as expected ...)

[Alamar2078]

I use Inferno & Incindiary ammo a lot. AP works reasonably well too in certain circumstances. The area effect is nice when Husks are clustered together and I would imagine that it competes nicely with AP ammo.



BTW: Against fire resistant enemies like mechs I really like AP ammo. Not many people agree with me but I'm more than happy to go this way.

[Athenau]

I love Inferno on weapons where the panic + AoE trigger reliably (Viper, Mattock, pistols, shotguns). With automatic weapons I prefer AP because it does more damage, instantly, and getting the fire dance or splash to proc is a crap shoot.

[jwalker]

I hope this is the right place to ask this...



I just read (again) the gamplay data thread and i couldn't find the answer.

Does Jack's biotic boost upgrade affect her ammo power ? I mean, instead of 35% for the squad version, do we get 42 % ?

[Kronner]

Warp ammo = combat power

so no.

But anyways 35 or 42% is absolutely meaningless and unnoticable.

Modifié par Kronner, 14 novembre 2010 - 04:50 .

[chessplayer209]

Is it implied that anti-armor ammunition is also good against synthetic enemies? Also, isn't it kinda difficult to discern whether your foes are armored before you reflexively just shoot them with whatever you presently have loaded in the gun?