21 réponses à ce sujet

[Celticon]

I first posted this suggestion in the Witcher/DA thread, but I figured that as a combat innovation, it should be discussed in a thread of its own. I haven't give much thought to the detailed mechanics yet (checks, physical/mental etc), but I figured that the game could benefit from more opportunities in addition to spell combinations. As things are in DA:O, if you are successfully knocked down/grabbed, etc. then you are at the mercy of the game's combat statistics, with very few means of escape other than getting a party member to intervene.

Ideas:

If an enemy is stunned or knocked down, you may deliver a finishing blow.

If you are knocked down, activating your reaction skill allows you to quickly regain your footing, get up quickly, counter, or roll out of harm's way.

If you are overwhelmed or grabbed, the character can use a small backup
weapon (like a dagger) or a spell to break the enemy's grip. For example, a character may stab an ogre's hand in a pressure point or use a spell to throw an overwhelming mabari off.

If an enemy missile-type spell like fireball or stonefist is about to hit
you and your character is equipped with a shield, your reaction skill
allows you to absorb the impact with your shield and resist knockdown
and a good chunk of the damage - if you time it right.

Dodge maneuvers - if you see an enemy warrior casting mighty blow or some
other slow/strong move, you can move out of the way to avoid their attack. This is something that annoyed me in DA:O. Enemies could still hit your character even if you moved out of the range of their attack,
as long as they initiated their attack or skill before your movement - the only exception being if you broke their line of sight (only for enemy archers/mages). Then there were the ridiculously large AOE skills like fireball that couldn't be avoided period - yet in the cutscenes you would almost always see your character diving out of the way of fireballs and such.

Modifié par Celticon, 05 août 2010 - 08:22 .

[In Exile]

The problem with implementing space restrictions (like the ogre can't attack you if it is winding up and you are running away) is that I think it changes the physical structure of how the game is programmed. Right now, I believe a lot of what you see on screen is superflous to the actual calculations going on underneath. Personally, I favour changes that make the physical environemnt relevenat. But I wager that people will complain that it destroys a feature of an RPG, by making combat less compeltely statistical driven.

[AlanC9]

Celticon wrote...
This is something that annoyed me in DA:O. Enemies could still hit your character even if you moved out of the range of their attack, 
as long as they initiated their attack or skill before your movement - the only exception being if you broke their line of sight (only for enemy archers/mages). Then there were the ridiculously large AOE skills like fireball that couldn't be avoided period - yet in the cutscenes

So you want to make characters unhittable in melee as long as the player moves them out of the way as soon as the enemy starts an attack? So an alert player couldn't be physically attacked? I know you don't actually mean that, but I don't know what you really mean.

[Sable Rhapsody]

This sounds a little too much like QTEs for my comfort. QTEs in games range from the tolerably not terrible (God of War) to the bad (Force Unleashed) to the OH GOD WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOUR DESIGN truly awful (Heavy Rain). I have yet to see a game that did QTEs well.

[iTomes]

AlanC9 wrote...

Celticon wrote...
This is something that annoyed me in DA:O. Enemies could still hit your character even if you moved out of the range of their attack, 
as long as they initiated their attack or skill before your movement - the only exception being if you broke their line of sight (only for enemy archers/mages). Then there were the ridiculously large AOE skills like fireball that couldn't be avoided period - yet in the cutscenes

So you want to make characters unhittable in melee as long as the player moves them out of the way as soon as the enemy starts an attack? So an alert player couldn't be physically attacked? I know you don't actually mean that, but I don't know what you really mean.

i think he means that sometimes an enemy hits you with a melee attack even if youre like 10 metres away. a simple solution would be that enemys can hit you while theyre running after you. the gameplay wouldn't really change much, but it'd look much better...

[AlanC9]

As long as they do a running and attacking animation, I guess it would work.



My favorite is the homing arrows curving to hit you.

[joriandrake]

...I don't want a ME2-like action based combat, I am very happy with the RPG stat based one, thank you -.-

[andar91]

I don't care for QTEs.  I liked the Force Unleashed though.  Not a great game, but I enjoyed it.  But I digress.

Modifié par andar91, 05 août 2010 - 09:24 .

[lv12medic]

I always liked shield bashing someone that ran half way across a room to get teleported flat on their back right next to me. POKEY POKEY TIME!

However, I do like the idea of having a chance to get out of an overwhelm or grab, you'd have to pass some pretty high physical and mental checks in my opinion though. Something thats crushing you with enough force to pop you like a balloon or having a face full of Mabari going for your neck can lead to incapacitation or panic. Or in the case of being grabbed and kissed by a Brood Mother... its hard to do anything when you are puking your guts out.

[iTomes]

AlanC9 wrote...

As long as they do a running and attacking animation, I guess it would work.

My favorite is the homing arrows curving to hit you.

ohhh yes. thats something they should change, too. i mean, whats so bad if you can go behind a wall so an arrow doesn't hit you?? and just make arrows faster so you cant dodge from them or something. that and other things are simple ways to make the combat much much cooler without really changing it....

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...

Celticon wrote...
This is something that annoyed me in DA:O. Enemies could still hit your character even if you moved out of the range of their attack, 
as long as they initiated their attack or skill before your movement - the only exception being if you broke their line of sight (only for enemy archers/mages). Then there were the ridiculously large AOE skills like fireball that couldn't be avoided period - yet in the cutscenes

So you want to make characters unhittable in melee as long as the player moves them out of the way as soon as the enemy starts an attack? So an alert player couldn't be physically attacked? I know you don't actually mean that, but I don't know what you really mean.

You could do this with certain attacks, though. Like if an ogre tried to hurl a rock, you could quickly move the party out of the AOE.

[Celticon]

AlanC9 wrote...

Celticon wrote...
This is something that annoyed me in DA:O. Enemies could still hit your character even if you moved out of the range of their attack, 
as long as they initiated their attack or skill before your movement - the only exception being if you broke their line of sight (only for enemy archers/mages). Then there were the ridiculously large AOE skills like fireball that couldn't be avoided period - yet in the cutscenes

So you want to make characters unhittable in melee as long as the player moves them out of the way as soon as the enemy starts an attack? So an alert player couldn't be physically attacked? I know you don't actually mean that, but I don't know what you really mean.

Theoretically you could be unhittable, practically, however, you wouldn't be doing that since it would take you away from the actual fight. I simply believe in being able to manually evade enemy attacks.

If anyone believes that such an ability is overpowered, bear in mind that this is dependent on the enemies' attack/move speed as well. You should be able to evade a lumbering opponent with some ease, whereas a faster assassin-type enemy may not make it worthwhile. Being able to manually avoid attacks also places more tactical emphasis on movement speed, rather than making it tank-and-spank.

[Celticon]

In Exile wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Celticon wrote...
This is something that annoyed me in DA:O. Enemies could still hit your character even if you moved out of the range of their attack, 
as long as they initiated their attack or skill before your movement - the only exception being if you broke their line of sight (only for enemy archers/mages). Then there were the ridiculously large AOE skills like fireball that couldn't be avoided period - yet in the cutscenes

So you want to make characters unhittable in melee as long as the player moves them out of the way as soon as the enemy starts an attack? So an alert player couldn't be physically attacked? I know you don't actually mean that, but I don't know what you really mean.

You could do this with certain attacks, though. Like if an ogre tried to hurl a rock, you could quickly move the party out of the AOE.

For AOE spells it depends. If the enemy targets the ground, it can be avoided. If the skill is used to target a player or NPC, it will act like a homing missile from my experience (the actual projectile will not "home" on the target, but the one casting the AOE will track the target and fire at the very end of the animation - this is why AOE's with obscene radii (fireball) were nearly impossible to avoid without spacing your party far apart).

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

This sounds a little too much like
QTEs for my comfort. QTEs in games range from the tolerably not
terrible (God of War) to the bad (Force Unleashed) to the OH GOD WHAT IS
WRONG WITH YOUR DESIGN truly awful (Heavy Rain). I have yet to see a
game that did QTEs well.

The difference between what I'm suggesting and QTR's is that in other games (i.e. Tomb Raider) , QTE's were life-or-death circumstances. If you missed it, well damn that means you have to start from the last checkpoint all over again. What I'm suggesting is something limited to combat only, but merely optional. I believe that any immobilized character should be given some sort of fighting chance - as some pointed out this may have mental/physical checks to work it even.

Modifié par Celticon, 05 août 2010 - 09:35 .

[AlanC9]

Celticon wrote...
Theoretically you could be unhittable, practically, however, you wouldn't be doing that since it would take you away from the actual fight. I simply believe in being able to manually evade enemy attacks.

This would break melee bosses completely. Someone draws his attention and evades his attacks while the rest of the party takes him down with missile fire.

Actually, it would break melee anything if the player had the patience for it. We've already had one recent game where a 1st level character can become the greatest fighter in the world. We don't need another.

[Lord Gremlin]

AlanC9 wrote...

Celticon wrote...
Theoretically you could be unhittable, practically, however, you wouldn't be doing that since it would take you away from the actual fight. I simply believe in being able to manually evade enemy attacks.

This would break melee bosses completely. Someone draws his attention and evades his attacks while the rest of the party takes him down with missile fire.

Actually, it would break melee anything if the player had the patience for it. We've already had one recent game where a 1st level character can become the greatest fighter in the world. We don't need another.

I disagree. 1st level character should have a chance to become the greatest fighter, but only if player is extremely good. I didn't really liked that DAO was so stat-based. It's more RTS thing. Less Warhammer 40000, more Demon's Souls I say.
Everything is better when DAO thing: you run away from dragon, he hits empty space but deals damage to you. This system stinks of White Knight Chronicles. I liked tactical pause and skills in DAO, but I hated basic melee combat .
Ah, and if you think melee bosses will be broken, do some search on first boss in Demon's Souls and how many people actually defeated him and saw Dragon God intro.

Modifié par Lord Gremlin, 05 août 2010 - 10:12 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Soo...I'm going to get lynched for saying this, but it sounds like y'all are suggesting combat that's less stat-based and more player skill based. Like the shift from Mass Effect to Mass Effect 2, where things hit only if they're aimed properly, and cover is not the consistency of air.



*hides*

[iTomes]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Soo...I'm going to get lynched for saying this, but it sounds like y'all are suggesting combat that's less stat-based and more player skill based. Like the shift from Mass Effect to Mass Effect 2, where things hit only if they're aimed properly, and cover is not the consistency of air.

*hides*

nope, i actually only want animations that express what happens to my character. if im getting damage points, i want to know who hit me and not someone whos standing 10 metres away swinging his sword...

[Lord Gremlin]

iTomes wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Soo...I'm going to get lynched for saying this, but it sounds like y'all are suggesting combat that's less stat-based and more player skill based. Like the shift from Mass Effect to Mass Effect 2, where things hit only if they're aimed properly, and cover is not the consistency of air.

*hides*

nope, i actually only want animations that express what happens to my character. if im getting damage points, i want to know who hit me and not someone whos standing 10 metres away swinging his sword...

Good point.  Chance to hit, score critical, armor penetration etc. all skill based and calculated. But if you're out of reach no hit will be landed. Same applies to enemies.

[captain.subtle]

As usual I will sneaky snake in my favorite: Dark Messiah of Might And Magic!

Kick their literal hinds off things or into things.....

Make them fall of cliffs by the Grease spell!

Modifié par captain.subtle, 05 août 2010 - 10:27 .

[Celticon]

AlanC9 wrote...

Celticon wrote...
Theoretically you could be unhittable, practically, however, you wouldn't be doing that since it would take you away from the actual fight. I simply believe in being able to manually evade enemy attacks.

This would break melee bosses completely. Someone draws his attention and evades his attacks while the rest of the party takes him down with missile fire.

Actually, it would break melee anything if the player had the patience for it. We've already had one recent game where a 1st level character can become the greatest fighter in the world. We don't need another.

Well, the way I see it, it's no worse than beating on a boss that's been drawn to a forcefielded tank. It isn't any less fair that a boss should be smacking away at a tank receiving heals and buffs when the mages far away are doing the damage. On one of my playthroughs the Tower Ogre aggroed my mage. I just ran around in circles while the other party members equipped ranged weapons and attacked until it died.

What you're taking issue with is extremely crude boss AI. As I pointed out, you are probably aware that there are already strategies that accomplish the same effect.

That depends. Being able to evade is a function of the boss's reach and attack speed, as well as your own movement speed. Assuming we're dealing with bosses that are about as intelligent as rocks.

To solve that, you'll have to fix boss aggro and priority targeting. If a boss isn't taking fire from it's intended target, it will switch targets.

Modifié par Celticon, 05 août 2010 - 10:34 .

[Celticon]

captain.subtle wrote...

As usual I will sneaky snake in my favorite: Dark Messiah of Might And Magic!

Kick their literal hinds off things or into things.....

Make them fall of cliffs by the Grease spell!

That move where Sten pushed the Darkspawn off the cliff 300-style in the Sacred Ashes trailer was pretty sick.

[Sable Rhapsody]

iTomes wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Soo...I'm going to get lynched for saying this, but it sounds like y'all are suggesting combat that's less stat-based and more player skill based. Like the shift from Mass Effect to Mass Effect 2, where things hit only if they're aimed properly, and cover is not the consistency of air.

*hides*

nope, i actually only want animations that express what happens to my character. if im getting damage points, i want to know who hit me and not someone whos standing 10 metres away swinging his sword...

Supposedly they're working on this aspect for TOR.  That would be nice for DA2.