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Since DA2 is stuffing a character down our throat, are there any plans to revisit the AD&D system in future games?


69 réponses à ce sujet

#1
jjkrogs

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While I'm excited about DA2, and think it will be a fun ride regardless, clearly BioWare is leaving the option-heavy customizable character system of 'true' RPGs in favor of cookie-cutter PCs with limited character choices.  I found it difficult to embrace the lack of depth and customization in DAO, but I gave it a pass because it was a new universe with a whole new system and figured they'd increase these options as more content was released.  Unfortunately, it seems DA2 takes it one step further (or 2 steps backward, if you will), in the name of cinematography and expediency.

I am one of those gamers who miss the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons system, despite its flaws.  Anyone who knows this system also realizes that Dragon Age Origins, in comparison, was so dumbed-down as to make character creation and leveling a yawnfest as you constantly thought to yourself, "there's got to be more to this, right?"

BioWare got away from AD&D primarily so they wouldn't have to pay royalties, but I think they've discovered that coming up with something on par with it 'from scratch' turned out to be far more daunting and expensive than they realized.  This, to me, is evident by the complete change of direction being taken in DA2.

With that said, I wonder if BioWare, now sold out to EA, has any plans to go back to Forgotten Realms/AD&D for a new game, geared toward an old school RPG audience?  Or do the profit requirements now placed upon them guarantee that only a game geared for the largest possible audience will ever again be produced?   Sadly, I think this is the case for BioWare.

Are there any other companies considering RPGs in the Forgotten Realms system?  Is Atari planning a Neverwinter Nights 3?

Modifié par jjkrogs, 05 août 2010 - 10:14 .


#2
Pixell Jones

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I doubt there will be a 'true' nwn3, since in the latest ed. of the dnd rules, neverwinter has been destroyed.

#3
Greenface21

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If this is you being excited for DA2 I hate to see your expressions of disappointment and disgust.

#4
lv12medic

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There are a bunch of lawsuits or something going on between Atari and Wizards of the Coast I think that prevents any D&D games to be made, plus any new games if ever will most likely follow the 4th edition ruleset whether people like it or not.

As for lack of choices in DA:O, I suppose there were in terms of classes and specializations. I mean there was no need to plan much more than how much Strenght/Dexterity/Cunning/Magic do I need to max out my talent tree. Specializations kind of just happend as well.

However, on the other side of the coin Bioware is trying to make a game where each class feels unique. This partially flopped in DA:O I suppose, but there's been a lot of emphasis for fixing this in DA2.

Having a bunch of different choices ultimately lead to everything getting smeared together.

You end up with classes that are percent based like Fighter (100% fighter), Druid(100% druid), Ranger (70% fighter, 30% druid) and so on and so forth. After awhile you end up with a bunch of Jack-of-all-trade classes that look nearly identical and have no real uniqueness to them other than their name.

#5
Dave of Canada

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I don't like having Hawke shoved down my throat.

#6
errant_knight

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I can deal with the single character. If it weren't for the voicing and the dialogue wheel, I'd still have full control of who that person is, but because of those things, I won't. That's a huge problem. Admittedly, it's only a problem for me. I'm sure Bioware will find other gamers who don't care and make wads of cash. Bah, who cares about a few people who thought the gameplay of DA:O was awesome and looked forward to more. Whatever.

#7
RevengeofNewton

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DA: O had our option of one of 6 characters shoved down our throat.



Hawke isn't much worse, actually.

#8
Sable Rhapsody

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Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't like having Hawke shoved down my throat.


Ouch :blink:

OP, I think you'd like this article: http://kotaku.com/56...hat-wasnt-there  I don't think you're looking for a D&D RPG per se so much as the kind of really old WRPG that the editorial highlights.

#9
andar91

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I miss D&D games but I think it would be a mistake on Bioware's part to try and emulate it instead of developing their own system, which I think works rather well. I think having only three classes works because they are THE archetypical fantasy classes (sci-fi too, if you think about it). You can further customize them if you want. Want a cleric? Build a mage with healing and buffs.



I also think that the lack of multiclassing, while limiting in some respects, also gives each class a much more clearly defined role within the game. Except for rare instances (and Arcane Warriors), DA boils each down to its purest form. I think that D&D, while great, tended to over complicate the classes by making so many different choices that, really, boiled down to rogue, warrior, or mage.

#10
Russalka

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Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't like having Hawke shoved down my throat.


I hate leaving an useless reply, but for someone to say that, you still have an avatar of a guy with his mouth open wide. Posted Image

I actually miss the D&D RPG. So much variety. I do not have the patience for pen and paper.
But an RPG with a backstory as original as possible and still managing including the delightful archetypes of the typical roleplaying games, is something to be cherished still.

#11
Dave of Canada

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Russalka wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't like having Hawke shoved down my throat.


I hate leaving an useless reply, but for someone to say that, you still have an avatar of a guy with his mouth open wide. Posted Image


My avatar is actually vomiting pasta that suspiciously looks like a beard.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 05 août 2010 - 10:45 .


#12
Lyssistr

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jjkrogs wrote...

While I'm excited about DA2, and think it will be a fun ride regardless, clearly BioWare is leaving the option-heavy customizable character system of 'true' RPGs in favor of cookie-cutter PCs with limited character choices.  I found it difficult to embrace the lack of depth and customization in DAO, but I gave it a pass because it was a new universe with a whole new system and figured they'd increase these options as more content was released.  Unfortunately, it seems DA2 takes it one step further (or 2 steps backward, if you will), in the name of cinematography and expediency.

I am one of those gamers who miss the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons system, despite its flaws.  Anyone who knows this system also realizes that Dragon Age Origins, in comparison, was so dumbed-down as to make character creation and leveling a yawnfest as you constantly thought to yourself, "there's got to be more to this, right?"

BioWare got away from AD&D primarily so they wouldn't have to pay royalties, but I think they've discovered that coming up with something on par with it 'from scratch' turned out to be far more daunting and expensive than they realized.  This, to me, is evident by the complete change of direction being taken in DA2.

With that said, I wonder if BioWare, now sold out to EA, has any plans to go back to Forgotten Realms/AD&D for a new game, geared toward an old school RPG audience?  Or do the profit requirements now placed upon them guarantee that only a game geared for the largest possible audience will ever again be produced?   Sadly, I think this is the case for BioWare.

Are there any other companies considering RPGs in the Forgotten Realms system?  Is Atari planning a Neverwinter Nights 3?


 AD&D was not without it's flaws and annoyances, it had its plusses and its minuses, overall it was a solid system, but as things change as time passes.

 I have no idea if this is indeed the case, I never read the 4th edition of dnd but I see people saying that this has been dumbed down when they are negative about the changes or streamlined, when they are positive. An intelligent guess is that they tried to make dnd more user friendly and some people took that as "dumped down" and some welcomed the new experience.

  NWN3 seems unlikely to happen soon, there is a lawsuit against Atari atm, about the D&D license. NWN3 is discussed in Bio forums, here: http://social.biowar...2/index/3179988 . However who knows, I remember reading a rumor (nothing official/legit) that NWN3 will be an mmo but on the totally opposite direction I remember an Obsidian dev saying, in the old Bio forums, that new dnd is in fact a good thing for whoever decides to make NWN3 (before the mmo rumors, so I take it he was referring to a SP game).

 Similarly, with DAO, you can see it as a dumpdown or as streamlining. Personally, I'd rather have mana than rest after every 2-3 trash packs. Yes there are some things I miss from AD&D but I also like some of the changes in DAO. You can't have it all I guess.

 For Bioware doing a new D&D game, I doubt it, they've made their own fantasy world, their own game rules now. Besides that, Bioware is now EA/Bioware and D&D is with Atari - unless a court decides otherwise ofc -. Nothing's impossible tho.

 For games that advertise as old school games these days, I tried a couple of them, I didn't like them tbh and stopped playing after a couple of days. Most, if not all, of them offer demos and you can try to see if they suit your gaming taste.

 It's new school that sounds more interesting now tbh, anyhow I don't think things have changes that much. As long as things don't move to a hack & slash only direction, changes are fine by me.

 The only old-school game I'm looking forward to is the not-announced, not under development but mentioned by an Obsidian dev as something they'd like to do in the future, should the opportunity exist, BG III.

Modifié par Lyssistr, 05 août 2010 - 10:53 .


#13
jjkrogs

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't like having Hawke shoved down my throat.


Ouch :blink:

OP, I think you'd like this article: http://kotaku.com/56...hat-wasnt-there  I don't think you're looking for a D&D RPG per se so much as the kind of really old WRPG that the editorial highlights.


Wow, thanks for the link.  This guy (author) 'gets it'. 

#14
Lyssistr

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Pixell Jones wrote...

I doubt there will be a 'true' nwn3, since in the latest ed. of the dnd rules, neverwinter has been destroyed.


Actually an Obsidian dev said NWN3 is a good idea exactly because of that. I'm leaving my reply as is for now, I'll update it with the link when I find it.

Edit: can't believe I managed to dig this, from Tony Evans, Obsidian Entertainment, link: http://nwn2forums.bi...46818&forum=128


 Storm of Zehir will not destroy Neverwinter.

Personally, I see the destruction of Neverwinter as an opportunity for whoever may work on a possible Neverwinter Nights sequel. Though I don't speak for WotC, I assume they will remain vague with the details on Neverwinter in order to allow a future 4E NWN game to re-define it. 


Note: Note: I don't read about D&D rules, changes to world etc, just play dnd computer games, I have no idea if this is still relevant today, it was written back in '08.

Modifié par Lyssistr, 05 août 2010 - 11:57 .


#15
Vaeliorin

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jjkrogs wrote...
I am one of those gamers who miss the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons system, despite its flaws.  Anyone who knows this system also realizes that Dragon Age Origins, in comparison, was so dumbed-down as to make character creation and leveling a yawnfest as you constantly thought to yourself, "there's got to be more to this, right?"

My non-caster 2E characters disagree with you.

#16
SaharaShark

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Russalka wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't like having Hawke shoved down my throat.


I hate leaving an useless reply, but for someone to say that, you still have an avatar of a guy with his mouth open wide. Posted Image


My avatar is actually vomiting pasta that suspiciously looks like a beard.


You rock Dave!  I feel the same way you do!! (from a fellow Canadian)

#17
jjkrogs

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Greenface21 wrote...

If this is you being excited for DA2 I hate to see your expressions of disappointment and disgust.



Let me clarify a bit.  DAO had the story, and BioWare has never failed to tell a good story.  While this is clearly a huge factor for successful RPGs, I'd call it about 40% of my enjoyment of the genre.  The rest is what I've mentioned.  A character that *I* started from square one, with my own backstory, talents, flaws, etc

Now, I love the ME games, and I loved DAO, for different reasons.  But now that DA2 is going the ME route, too, I (like many others) feel BioWare has turned a page toward narrative, movie adventure games with sporadic choice requirements.

While still fun, it does not fill the RPG niche I crave like Baldur's Gate, or Neverwinter Nights, or IceWind Dale, did.  IF DA's universe doesn't offer that, then maybe another company should consider it. 

#18
Saibh

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I'd say over half the games one can actually call an RPG don't allow you to customize your race.

#19
Dave of Canada

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Saibh wrote...

I'd say over half the games one can actually call an RPG don't allow you to customize your race.


I'm disappointed that I couldn't play a Super Mutant, Centaur or Molerat in Fallout.

#20
Saibh

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Saibh wrote...

I'd say over half the games one can actually call an RPG don't allow you to customize your race.


I'm disappointed that I couldn't play a Super Mutant, Centaur or Molerat in Fallout.


I don't know why everyone thinks the choices in DAO were so great. I'm pretty damn sure David Gaider inferred there would be a nug Origin.

#21
Sable Rhapsody

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jjkrogs wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't like having Hawke shoved down my throat.


Ouch :blink:

OP, I think you'd like this article: http://kotaku.com/56...hat-wasnt-there  I don't think you're looking for a D&D RPG per se so much as the kind of really old WRPG that the editorial highlights.


Wow, thanks for the link.  This guy (author) 'gets it'. 


You're welcome.  I agree with about half the stuff he says (mostly on party size and actual skill customization) and disagree with the other half (user-created party, etc.) but it's certainly well-said.

#22
jjkrogs

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...

jjkrogs wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't like having Hawke shoved down my throat.


Ouch :blink:

OP, I think you'd like this article: http://kotaku.com/56...hat-wasnt-there  I don't think you're looking for a D&D RPG per se so much as the kind of really old WRPG that the editorial highlights.


Wow, thanks for the link.  This guy (author) 'gets it'. 


You're welcome.  I agree with about half the stuff he says (mostly on party size and actual skill customization) and disagree with the other half (user-created party, etc.) but it's certainly well-said.


The user-created party is something I miss from IWD and the 2nd expansion to NWN2, but I also enjoy 'premade' companions-- or at least most of them.  In a group of 4-6 there are always one or two companions which I didn't particularly care for, but always brought due to their skill set (usually mages).  Having the ability to swap one of them out for someone I designed would be killer, though I realize you'd lose any personal quest/banter with that party member as a result. 

#23
Dave of Canada

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Saibh wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Saibh wrote...

I'd say over half the games one can actually call an RPG don't allow you to customize your race.


I'm disappointed that I couldn't play a Super Mutant, Centaur or Molerat in Fallout.


I don't know why everyone thinks the choices in DAO were so great. I'm pretty damn sure David Gaider inferred there would be a nug Origin.


"Squweek squeek
squweek squeek
squeek squeek
squeek squeek squeek."

Born to be roasted and served only to royalty, you find your boring life in Orzammar put to the test when your chef's shop is attacked by hungry, hungry hobos from within on the very night your elder sister is to be cooked.

Given Names (Default)
Male: Nug

Female: Nug

Surname
N/A

Description"Some nugs are cooked by men and women who believe that they are tasty, but in Ferelden it is
believed that a nug be roasted with extra care. The nobility hire the best of chefs to roast nugs, as the Assembly once discovered to its dismay  when it attempted to eat some nugs hired off the street.


The Harrowmonts have always cooked the best nugs in Orzammar, even before rising to their political rank. They could only have done so by earning the respect of its customers through their reputation for juicy and tasty nugs, as well as their willingness to marinate their nugs for the night. With the rise of the darkspawn horde in the south it thus falls on the nugs to feed the hungry dwarven armies: duty demands that a dozen nugs be assembled and sent to King Cailan's table at once.

As the nugs will quickly discover, however, the darkness in Ferelden does not only lie in the heart of the evil horde in the south. Treachery stalks the halls of Quimby Harrowmont's Roasted Nugs, as there are many men who would use even the occasion of a Blight to eat a few more nugs.

As a young and upcoming nug, the duty of leading a rise against your captors will fall to you. Will you live up to your species' proud, but unhealthy, heritage? Or will you forge your own path and redeem all nugs?"

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 05 août 2010 - 11:28 .


#24
jjkrogs

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Saibh wrote...

I'd say over half the games one can actually call an RPG don't allow you to customize your race.


I'm disappointed that I couldn't play a Super Mutant, Centaur or Molerat in Fallout.


I don't know why everyone thinks the choices in DAO were so great. I'm pretty damn sure David Gaider inferred there would be a nug Origin.


"Squweek squeek
squweek squeek
squeek squeek
squeek squeek squeek."

Born to be roasted and served only to royalty, you find your boring life in Orzammar put to the test when your chef's shop is attacked by hungry, hungry hobos from within on the very night your elder sister is to be cooked.

Given Names (Default)
Male: Nug

Female: Nug

Surname
N/A

Description"Some nugs are cooked by men and women who believe that they are tasty, but in Ferelden it is
believed that a nug be roasted with extra care. The nobility hire the best of chefs to roast nugs, as the Assembly once discovered to its dismay  when it attempted to eat some nugs hired off the street.


The Harrowmonts have always cooked the best nugs in Orzammar, even before rising to their political rank. They could only have done so by earning the respect of its customers through their reputation for juicy and tasty nugs, as well as their willingness to marinate their nugs for the night. With the rise of the darkspawn horde in the south it thus falls on the nugs to feed the hungry dwarven armies: duty demands that a dozen nugs be assembled and sent to King Cailan's table at once.

As the nugs will quickly discover, however, the darkness in Ferelden does not only lie in the heart of the evil horde in the south. Treachery stalks the halls of Quimby Harrowmont's Roasted Nugs, as there are many men who would use even the occasion of a Blight to eat a few more nugs.

As a young and upcoming nug, the duty of leading a rise against your captors will fall to you. Will you live up to your species' proud, but unhealthy, heritage? Or will you forge your own path and redeem all nugs?"



Nug forms an awkward alliance with Space Hamster and together they cry, "freedom".

#25
RosaAquafire

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I sort of don't get this. I've been playing Baldur's Gate I for the first time ever, recently (I know, I know!) and I've been sort of blown away by how LITTLE choice there is. When I level up, I just press a button that, unless I'm a thief, just TELLS me flat out what I'm getting from this level up. The once in a million years I get an option for a new weapon proffiency, I can't choose to put it into bows because I already have two stars in bows I guess? So I have to just put it into another weapon type that I'm never going to use.



People always talk about how much choice old school RPGs have, and I've been looking forward to seeing it, but now that I've been going through BG, I'm sort of scratching my head.