60 réponses à ce sujet

[beancounter501]

Like the thread title says - what do you think is the strongest Rogue Specialization and why!
For me the ranking goes:
1. Ranger: Extra party members is always nice. The Bear and Wolf can carry their weight not only in Tanking or in doing damage. Plus, it really helps your Rogue get easy Backstabs off your summons target. For the amount of damage the Summons can do, the Stamina/Talent cost is really low.
2. Assassin: The only Rogue Spec with no Sustains. Mark of Death helps the whole party kill an Elite faster. Exploit Weakness is free damage, Feast of the Fallen helps solve one of the Rogues biggest weakness - Stamina. Feast of the Fallen just rocks. Bring your Rogue up to combat Stealth 3, then anytime you need to charge your stamina up, just Stealth up and Backstab your target when he is near death. Takes a little micro, but the Rogue is about micro. Lacerate is weak though.
3. Duelist: The Dueling sustain is alright - but the Warrior Spec Champion does it a lot better. Plus for 20 more Stamina I would rather have a Bear running around rather then +10 Attack/+10 Defense. The talent Upset Balance stinks. Pinpoint Strike is good, but the high cost and LONG cooldown make it to annoying to use regularly. I do not want to sit and wait 1 minute between every battle. Besides - I can critical on demand with Stealth/Dirty Fighting/Riptose.
4. Bard: Lots of people love the Bard - I think it is weak. Song of Valor - if you have a massive cunning you can recharge 1 stamina point every 2 seconds. Don't use this -ever. Distraction - are you kidding me? -5 Attack and -5 Defense for 5 seconds? That is worse then the Horrible Tier 1 Spell Disorient. Yuck. Song of Courage - the base bonus is good, but it takes a massive amount of cunning to get anything out of this. Captivating Song - there are far better forms of Crowd Control out there. Don't bother.

So lets hear it - what do you think is the strongest!

[mousestalker]

I'd switch out #1 and #2. I really like Assassin for its complete lack of sustains. It's the 'no muss, no fuss' specialization. Ranger requires some micromanagement and the darn bear constantly gets in my way. The spider just creeps me out (although it's clicky walking sound is kind of funny).

[d3c0yBoY]

Ranger and Assassin, the former being the best out of sheer utility. Bean covered it all. Nuff said.

[Last Darkness]

And here I was thinking I was origenal with my Ranger/Assassin.



I agree with your list pretty much for the same reasons you state, Beancounter.

Though as always some things are better then Others for differant rogues. A Cunning or Dex rogue will get differant milage out of some spec abilities.

[Maverick827]

Each talent has their own strengths and weaknesses depending on where in the game you are. Early on, +10 Attack from Duelist is invaluable, especially since the upkeep is only 30 Stamina. Ranger pets are pretty expensive at level 7, so here I would rate Duelist higher.

Assassin and Bard kind of assume you are a Cunning build; they're not weak sans Cunning, but they're not optimized.

Duelist and Assassin, however, cannot advance until level 12, whereas Ranger and Bard is even sailing from 7 - 14.

Overall, Rogues probably have the weakens specializations, but they all are relatively balanced and useful (as opposed to Shapeshifter and the later Reaver talents).

[soteria]

Definitely ranger in terms of damage if nothing else. I'd switch Duelist and Bard, though. Distraction is a handy way to keep enemies off you while dirty fighting is on cooldown, and although I think SoC is overrated, it's still plenty valuable in a melee-heavy group. Captivating Song is a niche ability, but it's very good at what it does. Duelist doesn't really bring anything new to the table--just mild buffs across the board.

[Elhanan]

I utilize Duelist most often, and Assassin comes in next. But as I have yet to try Bard or Ranger, I cannot say they are the strongest; just have more appeal for me than the others.

[beancounter501]

@ Maverick - if anything I find the Ranger even stronger in the low levels. Try this experiment out - if you are on the PC. Get Leliana in Lothering and respec her to Ranger. Then take your main Rogue and take the Ranger spec. Play through Lothering. Reload to start. Then respec both again as Duelist and playthrough Lothering again. I can tell you which playthrough is a lot easier. But with the sustain cost I * almost* thought about picking up some willpower. Since Rogues do not have that much +Stamina gear. And lots of Sustains.



@Soteria - How does distraction help you? It seems Below the Belt is better in every way.

[soteria]

Are you confusing what Distraction and Upset Balance do? Distraction is supposed to make an enemy stop attacking you, and as far as I can tell, that's exactly what it does. I would set Leliana's tactics to "self, being attacked by melee, use distraction," and it kept the enemies off fairly well. It's certainly not a flashy talent, but it seems to work. Of course, you don't care for cunning rogues, so maybe you get more resists than I do. It's one of those abilities designed to help keep enemies off the squishies, so I can see why it wouldn't interest you as much.

[Random70]

beancounter501 wrote...
@Soteria - How does distraction help you? It seems Below the Belt is better in every way.

Below the Belt? While it may be amusing to kick a Genlock in the jewels, BtB is essentially Cripple -  and I certainly wouldn't number Cripple among the 'must haves'.

My ranks:

1) Duelist
Easiest way to increase a characters damage is to actually hit with all of your attacks. Rogues inherently have a lower ATT rating than do warriors so adding +10 is incredibly useful, especially considering the cost and the fact you can get it at Lvl 7 - right when you need it most. Keen Defense only increases it's utility. DEX builds have no use for Upset Balance, though it may occasionally be useful for STR due to their low DEF. Rogues biggest challenges are are tough bosses with lots of auto-hit attacks, most of whom are stun immune. Pinpoint Strike is incredibly effective in these situations. Combine with Swift + MoD for best results. Also allows you to fight through an M. Hex. Works well with Archery.

2) Assassin
Close 2nd to Duelist only because it's pretty much useless to Archers. Slightly better spec bonus than Duelist. MoD is a super Anti-Boss abilty. EW and Lacerate are both nice passives, though Lacerate doesn't begin to get good until the latter third of the game. I only rate FoF as 'OK' due the fact that you have to micro it to get it to work and Death Animations ruin the effect. Mandatory for CUN builds.

3) Bard
Bard talents all have the same issue - none of them are anywhere near as effective as SoC. Nice bonus for CUN builds, not very useful to DEX / STR backstabbers though Archer types will want it as they really don't have any other options.

4) Ranger
I took Ranger with my first Archer Solo. After being generally unimpressed throughout the early game, I rolled into Redcliffe @ Lvl 15 and whistled up a Master Bear to help out with the Suits of Armor. The Suits murdered that 500+ hp Bear in ~ 5 seconds. Reloaded to a Lvl 7 save and went with Duelist / Bard and never regretted it for a second. Sad.

So:

DEX / STR Backstabber: Duelist / Assassin
CUN Backstabber: Bard / Assassin
DEX Archer: Duelist / Bard

Modifié par Random70, 07 août 2010 - 04:29 .

[soteria]

Random70, how can you rank Bard above Ranger? Unless you're using it to stack crit for Aim or something, SoC is almost categorically inferior to a ranger pet. I'm talking about damage contribution, not tanking or utility. Or is it something about soloing that I'm missing? I assume that's why you rank Duelist so high. I like the spec, but to me 10 attack (10% more damage, arguably) isn't better damage than a pet deals. I don't usually need the extra defense (and a pet can probably make up for getting hit 10% more often, on average), and I can use stuns, paralysis runes, other CC's, or the rest of my group to deal with the rare backstab-immunes. Even if I couldn't, again, having the pet out all the time seems like a higher damage contribution than being able to crit for a short period. In any event, I don't put a rogue in melee against a Revenant (the main offender) due to my playstyle. It just doesn't pay.

[volmara]

i always prefer to use bow on rogue melee rogue always tend to get in a bad way on tougher fights and i use 2 s/s war so theres little manuver room for another melee typically and haveing someone to hang out with my mage really helps alot on sections that like to spawn mobs away from the group you have engadged. that said most specs. are rather useless for bow rogue other than ranger/bard imo . assassin is really only used for mark so the initial spec. bonus usually do more for bow and i stack +stam regen on my main so i prefer valor personally

[beancounter501]

@Soteria - Yes, song of distraction drops threat for your Rogue. I do not see that as particularly useful. Especially since I just love Stealth 3/4, and make that line a priority. Stealth drops aggro too. Outside of basically being Disengage it drops attack and defense by 5 on your target - for 5 seconds. Stand by my assessment as a junk talent. Stealth does it better - and a faster cooldown/cost.

I still like BtB, it is cheap, most people have to get it on the way to Lethality, hits fast - (I timed it at 1 second - compared to 1.45 for cripple. And you can unequip your offhand weapon for extra dmg), comes at +5 to Hit and debuffs your targets defense by 10 for 10 seconds and debuffs movement speed. Still subpar to Riptose or Dirty Fighting - but a lot better then Distraction. If you want to be cheap use BtB on a yellow and then kite with your Rogue.

@Random - The Dueling bonus is nice - but I have to spend three talents to buff ONE characters attack/defense by 10. Rally+Motivate will buff the whole party for the same three talents. I know you play solo, but I have a hard time spending my Rogues talents on something my Warrior can provide better. Plus he gets Warcry.

On Pinpoint Strike - it rocks. But the cooldown is just too long. Really I don't see why Bioware made any talent with such a long cooldown. From a gameplay standpoint, forcing the player to sit and wait for the cooldown is dumb. It annoys me so much I would probably mod my game to bring it to a 45 second cooldown if my main was a Duelist.

On the Ranger - the Pets are not tanks or ultra damage dealers. They will not last too long by themselves. And I did notice when play testing Rogue builds through the Deserted Building that the pets did not help a lot when Solo. But in a party situation they are extremely useful. They can do good damage, draw aggro away from your warrior(sometimes even pulling 1 or 2 monsters away from your warrior is a godsend in the low levels) and most importantly give your Rogue free backstabs on monsters attacking the pet. Best of all those are flanking backstabs that come with a nice +10 to +20 attack. Save your Dirty Fighting/Riptose when the monster turns around.

And if you are feeling especially lame you can hide around the corner and just send in three waves of pets to wear down your targets.  Or totally zerg it out with three Rangers and a mage!  Have the mage take Haste + Flaming Weapons + Animated Dead and send in three Bears and a Skeleton!  With Haste and Flaming Weapons I am sure they could beat most encounters.  If they don't then summon three wolves after the Bears die.  And then three Spiders.  Lol, and just for fun start casting Blizard/Inferno/Tempest/SotC on top of your disposable army.  Beats a +10 attack/defense in my book anyday. 

Modifié par beancounter501, 08 août 2010 - 04:23 .

[d3c0yBoY]

Is there a differance between the console and the PC, because I can't summon both a animal and dead for the life of me. One cancels the other one out. Or perhaps you are using a mod. I'll have to try it again. Wolves, zombies and bears, oh my.

[beancounter501]

I am on the PC and you can have multiple Summons - one per character. I have read that the console can have only one summon for the entire party. I have no idea why Bioware did this.

[Random70]

soteria wrote...
Random70, how can you rank Bard above Ranger? Unless you're using it to stack crit for Aim or something, SoC is almost categorically inferior to a ranger pet. I'm talking about damage contribution, not tanking or utility. Or is it something about soloing that I'm missing?

* For any CUN based character why would you not run Bard? Provides an enormous bonus for the entire party
* I  run CUN up to 40ish for my DEX characters. For an Archer with Bard this is +6 Att, +3.5 Dam, +12% Crit (w/ Aim) for every arrow I fire. That makes any vanilla bow almost as good as Farsong and, of course, Farsong itself even stronger. Pets, OTOH, are totally redundant against weak enemies whereas vs strong enemies (where they might actually be helpful) they pretty much fall down and die immediately.
* Party mode is extremely easy. Why on earth would you need additional helpers here?
* The Ranger spec bonus is pretty useless

soteria wrote...
I can use stuns, paralysis runes, other CC's, or the rest of my group to deal with the rare backstab-immunes. Even if I couldn't, again, having the pet out all the time seems like a higher damage contribution than being able to crit for a short period.

Dragons, Drakes, Revenants, Golems, Sylvans, Desire Demons, Arcane Horrors, Wraiths and Shades (essentially most non-fodder enemies in the game) are immune to stun, so the old DF-then-Backstab 'em-in-the-face bit won't work. Yeah, you might get a paralyze rune to proc and, if so, then gravy. But you can't control it. Pinpoint Strike is super against these enemies. PS + Swift + Mom + MoD turns your Rogue in to a human (elven?, dwarven?) blender. 15 seconds of that is more than enough to dispatch any of the above. And if you like talents on your rogue more, how strong would Flurry, Punisher or WW be if every hit crits?

soteria wrote...
In any event, I don't put a rogue in melee against a Revenant (the main offender) due to my playstyle. It just doesn't pay.

That's because you keep running CUN rogues. For a DEX or STR rogue, Revenants are nothing more than EXP on the hoof.

[Random70]

beancounter501 wrote...
@Random - The Dueling bonus is nice - but I have to spend three talents to buff ONE characters attack/defense by 10. Rally+Motivate will buff the whole party for the same three talents. I know you play solo, but I have a hard time spending my Rogues talents on something my Warrior can provide better. Plus he gets Warcry.

Dueling vs. Rally
* +10 ATT: Dueling @ Lvl 7, Rally @ Lvl 14
* No need to stay in an Aura
* Aura may hose your Stealth
* Run both. If you feel your Rogue has too much ATT late game then take 10 pts outta DEX and dump it into CUN for more damage

beancounter501 wrote...
On Pinpoint Strike - it rocks. But the cooldown is just too long. Really I don't see why Bioware made any talent with such a long cooldown. From a gameplay standpoint, forcing the player to sit and wait for the cooldown is dumb. It annoys me so much I would probably mod my game to bring it to a 45 second cooldown if my main was a Duelist.

It's overkill for most encounters and would be too strong if you could use it for every battle. It's only vs. certain tough enemies that it's needed and you shouldn't be running into them more than once every 3 minutes. Besides which, it's pretty expensive for regular use on your Rogue.

beancounter501 wrote...
On the Ranger - the Pets are not tanks or ultra damage dealers. They will not last too long by themselves. And I did notice when play testing Rogue builds through the Deserted Building that the pets did not help a lot when Solo.

Agree

beancounter501 wrote...
...and most importantly give your Rogue free backstabs on monsters attacking the pet. Best of all those are flanking backstabs that come with a nice +10 to +20 attack. Save your Dirty Fighting/Riptose when the monster turns around.

I thought you hated flanking? I know I sure do. And with +10 ATT and DEF from Dueling, it isn't necessary.

beancounter501 wrote...
And if you are feeling especially lame you can hide around the corner and just send in three waves of pets to wear down your targets.  Or totally zerg it out with three Rangers and a mage!  Have the mage take Haste + Flaming Weapons + Animated Dead and send in three Bears and a Skeleton!  With Haste and Flaming Weapons I am sure they could beat most encounters.  If they don't then summon three wolves after the Bears die.  And then three Spiders.  Lol, and just for fun start casting Blizard/Inferno/Tempest/SotC on top of your disposable army. 

That sounds more like "I'm bored and want to do something different"

beancounter501 wrote...
Beats a +10 attack/defense in my book anyday. 

From my standpoint, it boils down to this:

vs. Weak enemies
Pets: Redundant
Pinpoint: Overkill

Vs. Tough Enemies
Pets: Dies fast
Pinpoint: Gold

Modifié par Random70, 08 août 2010 - 05:33 .

[soteria]

beancounter501 wrote...

@Soteria - Yes, song of distraction drops threat for your Rogue. I do not see that as particularly useful. Especially since I just love Stealth 3/4, and make that line a priority. Stealth drops aggro too. Outside of basically being Disengage it drops attack and defense by 5 on your target - for 5 seconds. Stand by my assessment as a junk talent. Stealth does it better - and a faster cooldown/cost.

True, stealth does the same thing better, but I've only actually taken the talent on Leliana--she can't get combat stealth without a heavy talent investment, whereas Distraction is required for SoC. It's an efficient tool to keep her alive (put it above Dirty Fighting in tactics, or she'll blow both sequentially).

I still like BtB, it is cheap, most people have to get it on the way to Lethality, hits fast - (I timed it at 1 second - compared to 1.45 for cripple. And you can unequip your offhand weapon for extra dmg), comes at +5 to Hit and debuffs your targets defense by 10 for 10 seconds and debuffs movement speed. Still subpar to Riptose or Dirty Fighting - but a lot better then Distraction. If you want to be cheap use BtB on a yellow and then kite with your Rogue.

/shrug. It's a decent talent to use on the odd tough yellow or boss. I use it, sometimes. I just don't understand what that has to do with Distraction. As far as I'm concerned, they're completely different tools for disparate purposes.

Random70 wrote...

* For any CUN based character why would you not run Bard? Provides an enormous bonus for the entire party

* I run CUN up to 40ish for my DEX characters. For an Archer with Bard this is +6 Att, +3.5 Dam, +12% Crit (w/ Aim) for every arrow I fire. That makes any vanilla bow almost as good as Farsong and, of course, Farsong itself even stronger. Pets, OTOH, are totally redundant against weak enemies whereas vs strong enemies (where they might actually be helpful) they pretty much fall down and die immediately.

* Party mode is extremely easy. Why on earth would you need additional helpers here?

* The Ranger spec bonus is pretty useless

*3.5 damage a swing per party member is not more than a ranger pet will do in the same duration. When my pet is doing 30 or 40 damage a hit (with Master Ranger), it would take a party full of dual-wielders gaining the SoC bonus to keep up.

*Why does a party need a pet? You may as well ask why you need the additional damage from SoC. If you don't "need" one, you certainly don't "need" the other.

With exceptional outlying fights, it's not a matter of "need," is it? For those, I submit that the ranger pet is far more useful. For example, one of the hardest (ignored) fights in the game, the room with two mages and a few spider just before broodmother, and also, the one with the mage, spiders, darkspawn, and ancient darkspawn dropping topsider's honor. As a replaceable meat shield, a ranger pet is far more useful than SoC there. Spiders attacking a pet won't use overwhelm, and one more body to eat crushing prison/web is invaluable.

Dragons, Drakes, Revenants, Golems, Sylvans, Desire Demons, Arcane Horrors, Wraiths and Shades (essentially most non-fodder enemies in the game) are immune to stun, so the old DF-then-Backstab 'em-in-the-face bit won't work. Yeah, you might get a paralyze rune to proc and, if so, then gravy. But you can't control it. Pinpoint Strike is super against these enemies. PS + Swift + Mom + MoD turns your Rogue in to a human (elven?, dwarven?) blender. 15 seconds of that is more than enough to dispatch any of the above. And if you like talents on your rogue more, how strong would Flurry, Punisher or WW be if every hit crits?

I can flank almost all of those. Remember, I neither solo nor have beancounter's aversion to using a tank, so flanking is pretty easy even when I'm not using coup de grace. You're right about paralysis runes, though I submit that if you have three characters using them, as I often do, paralysis becomes commonplace (if random). Pinpoint Strike is, indeed, great against golems; unfortunately, in the anvil of the void section the dangerous golems come one after another--so you get to kill maybe one or two with it. A ranger pet, on the other hand, could run forward and disable the gas in one room or run forward and eat the two throws (and quakes) in the second. Summon another pet as the first dies, and you're none the worse for it.

I don't melee revenants with a rogue because of double strike, which is every bit as dangerous to the dex build as to the cunning one.

My first rogue was actually a strength/dex build, believe it or not. This is a little off-topic, but it really irks me how Bioware muffed up medium armor. Never mind the scarcity of it. The best medium armor set, superior dragonskin, gives TWO points more armor than superior drakeskin... and it costs what, 12 extra strength to wear? Really? I want to like medium armor, but it just blows my mind how bad they made it relative to everything else. You can stay at 22 strength and have HIGHER armor using felon's coat, cadash stompers, and helm of honnleath, or you can add 6 points and wear diligence + evon's and approximately double your armor. It's like they wanted to make medium armor the worst possible choice imaginable. For stylistic/RP reasons, I'm unwilling to put heavy armor on a rogue.

[d3c0yBoY]

soteria wrote...

[ For stylistic/RP reasons, I'm unwilling to put heavy armor on a rogue.

Shame. You are missing out on Leliana rocking Cailin's Armor set. Both beautiful and dangerous. <Sigh> I heart her 

[beancounter501]

@Soteria - scary I actually agreed with everything you posted! Except the heavy armor part. As for Distraction - I thought you were using it for the Debuff, not dropping agro. So I can see the use. Still not that great.



@Random - Flanking has been kind of growing on me. It is just an extremely strong ability of a Rogue. Hard to turn down +20 attack. However, it is pointless to Flank a target of your DPS Warrior. Your pet is not a DPS monster, so it makes sense to flank and attack the target of your pet. And on the tough monsters you listed you are better off flanking and let the warrior go toe to toe. Or let your pet get ripped up.

[Last Darkness]

So do we have a confirmed best yet? lol



@D3c0yBoY yeah due to technical limitations the console versions only allow one pet for the entire party. It would be fun to have a Wolf, Bear, Spider, and Animated dead, all together in your party though



As for builds im still partial to Assassin for party play.

[ArawnNox]

Sounds like mostly personal preference and anecdotal evidence.

I haven't done a whole lot of rogue building outside of Lelianna and Zevran, but I can see the merits in each.

I rarely have the need to summon the ranger pets (although I would if I played on a higher difficulty, I suspect.)

Bard is... hit or miss. Most claim it's not worth it until you get to the higher levels of cunning, and I don't like it's final ability.

Assassin and Duelist are my personal favorites because one offers decent defensive bonuses while the other offers more ways to rip your enemy apart.

[Feogrisha]

Assassin. I prefer mark of death and feast of the fallen over pets.

[Random70]

soteria wrote...

*3.5 damage a swing per party member is not more than a ranger pet will do in the same duration. When my pet is doing 30 or 40 damage a hit (with Master Ranger), it would take a party full of dual-wielders gaining the SoC bonus to keep up.

Party-wide, how many attacks can you get off in that time period?  Five doesn't seem like an unreasonable number, so at 3.5 per, you're looking at 17.5 additional damage - about half, yes? And if that were the whole story, I might actually agree with you here (not likely, though)

First, that '5' number above is assuming auto attacks. But aren't you using talents? Flurry, Punisher and Assault are 4 hits - at 3.5 per. Pummel and Overpower are 3, Sunders and Riposte are two. 2H Sweep is 3.5 per enemy. DW Sweep and WW hit with both weapons, so there's +7 damage per enemy...

Now figure in crits...the reference Archer here is gaining 12% crit chance or roughly 1 in 8. By itself, not too impressive, but IIRC that bonus moved this particular character from 17% total, ~1 in 6 chance to 29% - ~1 in 3.5. That's quite a few extra crits occuring, each of which is good for ~30 or 40 additional damage. Other party members are only receiving a 6% bump  - a little less than 1 in 16 which, again,  isn't exactly barn-burning. But figure your average warrior has ~ 14% crit chance. With SoC they are now at 20% - a move from 1 in 7 to 1 in 5, each at roughly 30 - 40 damage a pop. And more stuns as well for a 2H. A DW Rogue would be looking at more like a move from 1 in 4 to 1 in 3, but still, more crits, more damage. 

As to the third aspect, everyone is enjoying + 6 ATT and, as usual, fewer missed attacks = more damage dealt.

Finally, You have to summon pets every damned time you area transition. And if they get killed and you have to re-summon? Not only have you lost the dubious advantage your pet provides, you get to waste a couple of seconds to cast anew so you've lost your Rogue's attacks for the cast duration as well. Then more time to move that pet into position. SoC, conversely, is fire and forget - no fuss, no muss. Just keep attacking while enjoying all of the bonuses listed above. And, unlike a pet, your Rogue's lifespan isn't measured in milliseconds so that bonus won't be lost.

So what have you got when you add all that up? Hard to say...there's about a million different variables to factor in. But I would hazard a guess that unless you're running something obscure, like 3 mages + 1 archer, SoC, even with only 40 CUN, will handily outdo a pet.

Modifié par Random70, 09 août 2010 - 11:59 .

[beancounter501]

^ Interesting argument - however the actual big difference is the Pet damage is concentrated on 1 target - not spread over 4. I am not really excited seeing my Sunder Arms go from 150-200 points of dmg to 156-206. It is more useful for Dual Welds where they rely on multiple attacks. But still - adding an extra 12 points of dmg to a Flurry is just so-so. Not going to make the game noticably easier. The crits are good for an Archer. But overall, still not impressed.

Also, you are not factoring in the fact that a Pet is going to soak agro and allow the Rogue to backstab - saving you Riptose/Dirty Fighting for latter in the fight. And like Soteria said the pet can charge straight at a mage and eat that Crushing Prison. As you like to say there is more then to the story then DPS

Lastly, you forget that pets have talents. The Wolf can come with Howl (A AOE Debuf that reduces defense by 5 - Hey that is pretty close to your SOC....) Shred - an auto crit ability. Always good to get another CoC + Shatter. Both are on 20 second cooldowns. Bear gets Slam - an Auto Crit with knockdown. Another shatter. That is a 20 second cooldown. Rage kind of sucks. The spider gets Web - that Paralyzes the target for 4 to 8 seconds. Hmm, what do Rogues do when a target is Paralyzed? That is on a 30 second cooldown - kind of like an extra Dirty Fighting. Plus Poison Spit can do decent Nature dmg an easy 60-80 points of dmg.

And one simple Flame Weapons spell will push the Bear to that 50-60 points of dmg range.

Overall, I still like the Ranger over the Bard. Actually I like every Spec over the Bard. But I will have to get some detailed numbers on Summons.

Modifié par beancounter501, 10 août 2010 - 01:57 .