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[smudboy]

tj23wizard wrote...

I'm just curious if anyone else was upset with the end of Mass Effect 2.  I felt that everything went at least smooth until the writers fell flat on their face by introducing something similar to the "Terminator".  (I let the "evil Shepherd" look slide - figuring it was a homage of sorts, and perhaps a moral comment when a man or woman reduces themselves to the level of a machine.)

But why in all the heavens build a machine in the form of a gigantic human?  There is no logical rhyme or reason, even within the universe of Mass Effect! All the other Reapers look identical. 

I can just imagine a hundred foot metal skeleton walking on Earth: "I am the vanguard of your destruction.";)

It felt like it was only done for was shock factor, and was laughable to the point of being totally absurd - even for science fiction. To me, it was the complete failing of an otherwise acceptable installment.


It reinforced my feeling that the writing of the second had fallen well short of the first.  While this is natural for a sequel, filling in the holes with protracted gun battles and severely overworked cliches smacks of desperation or indifference.

Did anyone else feel the same?

Sure.

Only about 10 minutes in, and then just about every point after.

[Il Divo]

Luc0s wrote...
But why did you burst out laughing? I mean I can understand that people think the giant Human Reaper is silly, but why Saren? What's so silly about his robo-zombie transformation?

Beyond the fact that they decided to keep his face structure and add glowing red eyes? They should have gone the whole ten yards and removed that ridiculous Turian frame. If he's a robot, turn him into a robot. Or if he's being mind controlled, simply give him glowing red eyes and keep his organic body. The odd fusion of the two makes for a ridiculous appearance.

[smudboy]

Il Divo wrote...

Luc0s wrote...
But why did you burst out laughing? I mean I can understand that people think the giant Human Reaper is silly, but why Saren? What's so silly about his robo-zombie transformation?

Beyond the fact that they decided to keep his face structure and add glowing red eyes? They should have gone the whole ten yards and removed that ridiculous Turian frame. If he's a robot, turn him into a robot. Or if he's being mind controlled, simply give him glowing red eyes and keep his organic body. The odd fusion of the two makes for a ridiculous appearance.

He's not a robot.  Saren was given cybernetic implants.  And they matched, or at least seem to, match his skeleton.  Which involves his face structure (skull, arms, etc.)  The implants were obviously very involved.

Why would the Turian frame be "removed"?

I admit the whole removal of organic material was unnecessary, but it clarified the idea of what was happening.  Clarity > all.

[Il Divo]

smudboy wrote...

He's not a robot.  Saren was given cybernetic implants.  And they matched, or at least seem to, match his skeleton.  Which involves his face structure (skull, arms, etc.)  The implants were obviously very involved.

Which is irrelevant when taking into account the second half of your post. There were a million different ways we could have seen Saren become a puppet. Show us Sovereign taking control in some manner, almost like Harbinger. Have Saren give us a few lines about how he can't fight the implants. Something that doesn't involve that ridiculous image.

I admit the whole removal of organic material was unnecessary, but it clarified the idea of what was happening.  Clarity > all.

This could easily have been accomplished without resorting to Saren spewing his blood and body parts across the room.

If I find myself laughing out loud at something that the story intends me to take seriously, then clarity doesn't make any difference in the world.

Modifié par Il Divo, 09 août 2010 - 03:40 .

[smudboy]

Il Divo wrote...

Which is irrelevant when taking into account the second half of your post. There were a million different ways we could have seen Saren become a puppet. Show us Sovereign taking control in some manner, almost like Harbinger. Have Saren give us a few lines about how he can't fight the implants. Something that doesn't involve that ridiculous image.

So it was unclear to you?

This could easily have been accomplished without resorting to Saren spewing his blood and body parts across the room.

If I find myself laughing out loud at something that the story intends me to take seriously, then clarity doesn't make any difference in the world.

Hmm?

Saren falls to his death.  Your team puts a bullet in Saren's head.  Sovereign takes control of Saren.  Was this unlcear to you?

I'd rather things be too clear then not clear at all.  To take offense to Saren's skeletal form is like saying you don't like how certain aliens look, which is completely subjective.  The idea behind the scene is clear: Saren's dead, his organic components are gone, and the machine is in control.  This is evidenced by the red glowing energy and lighting emanating from Saren's body while its writhing around, the explosion from the body, the continued writhing around, the red light streaming out of his eyes and mouth, the red light dissipating as Saren's non-glowing hand is seen, as the organic components are removed, leaving nothing but the metallic skeleton and a glowing red energy in its ribcage.

Modifié par smudboy, 09 août 2010 - 04:02 .

[Il Divo]

smudboy wrote...

Saren falls to his death.  Your team puts a bullet in Saren's head.  Sovereign takes control of Saren.  Was this unlcear to you?

Most clearly clear. What has not been made clear is why they chose such a ridiculous model. Sovereign takes control of Saren. Easy enough to understand. One of the OP's points was that the image of the human reaper was "laughable to the point of being totally absurd".

Now, explain to me the part where Saren needed to be turned into something out of a low budget film in order for me to understand that Sovereign has taken full controlof his body. I think Sovereign saying "Assuming Control" and watching Saren's body rise from the ground with glowing red eyes would have been more than sufficient to understand this point.

Clarity is great. I love clarity. You however are implying that because the scene 'made clear' that Sovereign has control of Saren, that somehow this is sufficient in order for a scene to be taken seriously, hence my point that clarity doesn't make robo-Saren any less idiotic. You are equating clarity=quality when it is but a single element. It is subjective, as you said.

Example: Let's say I were to direct a romantic love film about two human beings falling in love whose facial structures  bore a striking resemblance to a pair of pigs. Now let's say I had a very clear reason why these two people happen to look like pigs. I doubt most people are going to take my romance film seriously. In this instance, they do not care about clarity; they're too busy laughing at the pigs.

Modifié par Il Divo, 10 août 2010 - 03:04 .

[smudboy]

Il Divo wrote...

Most clearly clear. What has not been made clear is why they chose such a ridiculous model. Sovereign takes control of Saren. Easy enough to understand. One of the OP's points was that the image of the human reaper was "laughable to the point of being totally absurd".

If clarity, a type of context, explains or shows the content, then that's good: that's the point.

You can buy that a skeleton, the shape and size of an alien man, can be possessed by an AI.  You just don't like it.

The Human Reaper was absurd on several levels, all of which would be solved, if such content was clearly explained.

Now, explain to me the part where Saren needed to be turned into something out of a low budget film in order for me to understand that Sovereign has taken full controlof his body. I think Sovereign saying "Assuming Control" and watching Saren's body rise from the ground with glowing red eyes would have been more than sufficient to understand this point.

Low budget film?  I seem to recall ME1 having Geth Hoppers, mimicing the same behavior of Cyber Saren.  If Cyber Saren is reminiscent of a low budget film, then so are the Hoppers.  Although I'd assume you'd have problems with those, then, too.

Clarity is great. I love clarity. You however are implying that because the scene 'made clear' that Sovereign has control of Saren, that somehow this is sufficient in order for a scene to be taken seriously, hence my point that clarity doesn't make robo-Saren any less idiotic. You are equating clarity=quality when it is but a single element. It is subjective, as you said.

If it's a serious scene, then yes.  If not, then no.

Clarity is quality.

Example: Let's say I were to direct a romantic love film about two human beings falling in love whose facial structures  bore a striking resemblance to a pair of pigs. Now let's say I had a very clear reason why these two people happen to look like pigs. I doubt most people are going to take my romance film seriously. In this instance, they do not care about clarity; they're too busy laughing at the pigs.

If the tone is a serious one (or whichever), and we are sufficiently explained (told/shown) as to the alien content of the production, then yes, we would identify the content as real.  We might not be able to identify with the pig like faces as well as with human faces, and that would be an issue (in much the same way any alien element is granted human characteristics.)  It would be how that reality is expressed, shown or told to the viewer, which would require a lot of effort on behalf of the storyteller to compensate for an effective means of expressing such themes as romance or love (especially since I'm thinking of an old Twilight Zone episode.)

I'd imagine the effect of the peoples faces would be less as the film progresses.  If they cannot believe the premise, they wouldn't have gone to see the film in the first place.

[Myrmedus]

Il Divo wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Saren falls to his death.  Your team puts a bullet in Saren's head.  Sovereign takes control of Saren.  Was this unlcear to you?

Most clearly clear. What has not been made clear is why they chose such a ridiculous model. Sovereign takes control of Saren. Easy enough to understand. One of the OP's points was that the image of the human reaper was "laughable to the point of being totally absurd".

Now, explain to me the part where Saren needed to be turned into something out of a low budget film in order for me to understand that Sovereign has taken full controlof his body. I think Sovereign saying "Assuming Control" and watching Saren's body rise from the ground with glowing red eyes would have been more than sufficient to understand this point.

Clarity is great. I love clarity. You however are implying that because the scene 'made clear' that Sovereign has control of Saren, that somehow this is sufficient in order for a scene to be taken seriously, hence my point that clarity doesn't make robo-Saren any less idiotic. You are equating clarity=quality when it is but a single element. It is subjective, as you said.

Example: Let's say I were to direct a romantic love film about two human beings falling in love whose facial structures  bore a striking resemblance to a pair of pigs. Now let's say I had a very clear reason why these two people happen to look like pigs. I doubt most people are going to take my romance film seriously. In this instance, they do not care about clarity; they're too busy laughing at the pigs.

Sorry, but I have to say: using Harbinger's possession of Collectors as a parallel example isn't doing your argument any good on the topic of clarity. Many, many ME2 players didn't connect the two. They knew the Collector was being possessed but many missed the fact it was a Reaper all along. Now, the fact you would've heard Sovereign's voice is - of course - helpful, but there you go.

It made sense in the plot because it expelled Saren's chanting of how he was perfect due to being both organic and machine etc. because in the end now he was just a machine at his core.

And on the Human Reaper's form, another point I believed is that I viewed it being humanoid as making it almost like the subject of worship, similar to a giant statue of someone etc. it was meant to visually communicate the fact that this thing - ultimately - is human...and is almost like a human god. Having it look like a squid just wouldn't have the same effect as that visual connection between your own character, your own race and the boss wouldn't be there. You'd have to actively think: "This thing is made of humans" rather than actually see that for yourselves.

I do think they should've made it so it was 'built' in that form rather than EDI's speculation but I think perhaps the writers were afraid that would make it look too much like the Reapers were paying homage to us, and they're supposed to be too arrogant and superior to ever do that I believe.

I suppose it can make sense to a degree, the idea is that it's meant to have been produced from human DNA to almost be a giant human. The fact it's made of so many humans is irrelevant, they're all basically melted down, put together and then 'grown' - and the outcome is a human. The fact it has lots of techie looking stuff is just the synthetic implants and casing.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 10 août 2010 - 01:07 .

[ExtremeOne]

the ending was a big pile of bull sh*t. in fact it reminds me of some crap from Contra.

[Saremei]

tj23wizard wrote...

But why in all the heavens build a machine in the form of a gigantic human?  There is no logical rhyme or reason, even within the universe of Mass Effect! All the other Reapers look identical. 

Completely incorrect on your part. If you actually look at the end of Mass Effect 2, there are many many different styles of reaper.  Reapers look like the races that were used to construct them. Plain and simple fact.   Sovereign, Harbinger, and the dead reaper are from the same race's extinction, thus they look the same.   Paying attention to the story helps.