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[Indoctrination]

Bobad wrote...

No, Cromwell established a Republican Commonwealth, which was a positive

How was it a positive? The only reason he rejected the Crown when it was offered to him by parliament was because as Lord Protector he wasn't bound by any of the limitations of the crown like agreements similar to the Magna Carta. By being a Republican he was able to be an absolute tyrant.

[Indoctrination]

burrito wrote...

well she was born in fereldan so that could be a justification.

burrito wrote...

her mom i mean

Your mother being born in Ferelden is not a "justification" to claim the throne...

She was raised in Orlais, she was raised into Orlesian culture, and she speaks with an Orlesian accent. The Bannorn would have no reason to tolerate her.

[Drizzt ORierdan]

Indoctrination wrote...

burrito wrote...

well she was born in fereldan so that could be a justification.

burrito wrote...

her mom i mean

Your mother being born in Ferelden is not a "justification" to claim the throne...

She was raised in Orlais, she was raised into Orlesian culture, and she speaks with an Orlesian accent. The Bannorn would have no reason to tolerate her.

But why should the King consult the nobles? Is not  Ferelden an absolute monarchy? I think that if you are king you pretty much can get away with murder, if you can keep your head upon you shoulders...  But the  law  is on your side.

Modifié par Drizzt ORierdan, 07 août 2010 - 01:26 .

[Indoctrination]

Drizzt ORierdan wrote...

But why should the King consult the nobles? Is not  Ferelden an absolute monarchy? I think that if you are king you pretty much can get away with murder, if you can keep your head upon you shoulders...  But the  law  is on your side.

Ferelden is not an absolute monarchy. It is a feudal monarchy. The core of feudal monarchy is a contract between lord and vassals. Ferelden in particular comes off as a very feudal society with the Banns and Arls enjoying much power and influence. When Loghain became regent he didn't just gain absolute power. He had to call the Banns together and make an argument to them. Then Bann Teagan chewed him out and he quickly realized that half of the Bannorn was ready to war against him. Do not underestimate the power of local feudal lords. They're the ones controlling the means of production and the ones with the ultimate power. A King without the support of the Banns is nothing.

[burrito]

But the banns like the warden at the moment for ousting loghain and

I dont know how many french and english nobles married each other in a feudal society.

[Lenimph]

*face palm*

Even if that was remotely possible (which it isn't) she's lesbian with my dalish elf you silly fool. They ran off to start a new branch of the chantry that doesn't discriminate against any race and believes that the maker reveals himself in the beauty of the world!!! (Sarcasm)

No one would approve of the warden divorcing Anora and declaring himself as king(and marrying an Orlesian), especially when Anora was doing all the work while the warden was away in Awakenings.  And if she was murdered (because it is unlikely she will die at her age of natural causes), that would probably lead to more questions and blah blah.

Modifié par Lenimph, 07 août 2010 - 01:55 .

[Indoctrination]

burrito wrote...

But the banns like the warden at the moment for ousting loghain and
I dont know how many french and english nobles married each other in a feudal society.

Yes, for ousting Loghain for taking power by unlawful means and without the explicit concent of the Bannorn. Any Orlesian would be seen as King Megren 2.0 without the army of Chevaliers. It would be a doomed reign.

Modifié par Indoctrination, 07 août 2010 - 01:59 .

[Drizzt ORierdan]

Lenimph wrote...

*face palm*

Even if that was remotely possible (which it isn't) she's lesbian with my dalish elf you silly fool. They ran off to start a new branch of the chantry that doesn't discriminate against any race and believes that the maker reveals himself in the beauty of the world!!! (Sarcasm)

No one would approve of the warden divorcing Anora and declaring himself as king(and marrying an Orlesian), especially when Anora was doing all the work while the warden was away in Awakenings.  And if she was murdered (because it is unlikely she will die at her age of natural causes), that would probably lead to more questions and blah blah.

LOL Thats a good point.

But what could be the danger in having an Orlesian commoner as Queen? The queens didnt share power (Anora did, but that was cause she was a cold calculating **** and Cailan a cuckoo for fantasy worlds). The queens were there just for making babies... am I right? Leliana is in fact half-Fereldian, and would also have the Chantry on her side, surely. lol

[Tibilicus]

I believe what Indoctrination is saying is that Fereldan is a feudal monarchy and thus, the monarch rules through the consent of the Arls and Banns. Whilst the Warden may be popular, were he to choose Leliana, an Orlesian as his wife, despite his own popularity, it would be hard to pass it at a landsmeet. Remember, if you don't do the sideline quests relating to the various Arls of Fereldan, the landsmeet is split. The ruling classes may like the Warden but I doubt they would like him enough to allow him to put an Orlesian beside him on the throne.



Funnily enough, on the whole Anora topic, I never understood her claim to the throne. She is not of royal blood and so has no claim to the throne. It is generally custom in feudal Monarchies for the crown to pass from a monarch after death to their eldest son. Even if she married in to the royal bloodline she still wouldn't have a real claim, that's not how monarchy works. To be honest it would of made more sense for the Warden to claim the throne. I'm sure a deal could be have been done with Alistair.

[Lenimph]

Drizzt ORierdan wrote...

Lenimph wrote...

*face palm*

Even if that was remotely possible (which it isn't) she's lesbian with my dalish elf you silly fool. They ran off to start a new branch of the chantry that doesn't discriminate against any race and believes that the maker reveals himself in the beauty of the world!!! (Sarcasm)

No one would approve of the warden divorcing Anora and declaring himself as king(and marrying an Orlesian), especially when Anora was doing all the work while the warden was away in Awakenings.  And if she was murdered (because it is unlikely she will die at her age of natural causes), that would probably lead to more questions and blah blah.

LOL Thats a good point.

But what could be the danger in having an Orlesian commoner as Queen? The queens didnt share power (Anora did, but that was cause she was a cold calculating **** and Cailan a cuckoo for fantasy worlds). The queens were there just for making babies... am I right? Leliana is in fact half-Fereldian, and would also have the Chantry on her side, surely. lol

Even if she is half Fereldian she was raised in Orlais and was once a bard and I am certain someone would use that information against her. (Especially Marjolaine if you let her live)
The real question is would Leliana want to be Queen anyway?

... Nevermind she would for the shoes.... 

Modifié par Lenimph, 07 août 2010 - 02:22 .

[CrookedAsylum]

Drizzt ORierdan wrote...

Lenimph wrote...

*face palm*

Even if that was remotely possible (which it isn't) she's lesbian with my dalish elf you silly fool. They ran off to start a new branch of the chantry that doesn't discriminate against any race and believes that the maker reveals himself in the beauty of the world!!! (Sarcasm)

No one would approve of the warden divorcing Anora and declaring himself as king(and marrying an Orlesian), especially when Anora was doing all the work while the warden was away in Awakenings.  And if she was murdered (because it is unlikely she will die at her age of natural causes), that would probably lead to more questions and blah blah.

LOL Thats a good point.

But what could be the danger in having an Orlesian commoner as Queen? The queens didnt share power (Anora did, but that was cause she was a cold calculating **** and Cailan a cuckoo for fantasy worlds). The queens were there just for making babies... am I right? Leliana is in fact half-Fereldian, and would also have the Chantry on her side, surely. lol

Actually, men and women are seen as relatively equal within Fereldan. Great-grandma Cousland was a war general - I believe. Been a while since I last played the game -, there are female Banns, and Anora wouldn't be able to be that 'cold calculating ****' if she was raised in a society where the women were only moo-cows.

[burrito]

isnt much fereldan could do if warden made leliana queen, wouldn't have manpower after civil war and blight.

[CrookedAsylum]

burrito wrote...

isnt much fereldan could do if warden made leliana queen, wouldn't have manpower after civil war and blight.

Likewise, the Warden wouldn't have the manpower to stop the bannorn from trying anything.

[Arijharn]

The one thing that always puzzled me is if you were playing a Cousland and you said you wanted riches and a title, why the king/queen would grant you the titles and lands held by Loghain.



This would be a ridiculously stupid thing to do if you were playing a Cousland, because then you'd have two Couslands controlling the north and south of Ferelden and could essentially force the Ferelden equivalent of the Magna Carte.

[burrito]

I thought the same thing, controlling the only teryns lol

[Indoctrination]

Tibilicus wrote...

I believe what Indoctrination is saying is that Fereldan is a feudal monarchy and thus, the monarch rules through the consent of the Arls and Banns. Whilst the Warden may be popular, were he to choose Leliana, an Orlesian as his wife, despite his own popularity, it would be hard to pass it at a landsmeet. Remember, if you don't do the sideline quests relating to the various Arls of Fereldan, the landsmeet is split. The ruling classes may like the Warden but I doubt they would like him enough to allow him to put an Orlesian beside him on the throne.

Correct!

Funnily enough, on the whole Anora topic, I never understood her claim to the throne. She is not of royal blood and so has no claim to the throne. It is generally custom in feudal Monarchies for the crown to pass from a monarch after death to their eldest son. Even if she married in to the royal bloodline she still wouldn't have a real claim, that's not how monarchy works. To be honest it would of made more sense for the Warden to claim the throne. I'm sure a deal could be have been done with Alistair.

When a ruling noble line dies out (as is preceived to be the case with House Theirin), what sometimes happens is a period of interregnum where the nobles seek to find a suitable alternative to assume the throne. For example, in Scotland when House Bruce became extinct, the nobles supported the best alternative, Robert the Steward. Because Alistair was a secret son of Maric, House Theirin is assumed to be extinct with the death of Cailin. Anora at the time of Cailin's death is the daughter of an extremely beloved Teyrn, and already holds the title of Queen-consort (and de-facto sovereign, as she was running the government anyway, allowing her to build useful political support). As with any interregnum, the candidate for the throne is never ideal, but close enough to acceptable to be accepted.

Modifié par Indoctrination, 07 août 2010 - 02:57 .

[Indoctrination]

burrito wrote...

isnt much fereldan could do if warden made leliana queen, wouldn't have manpower after civil war and blight.

The biggest Darkspawn attack (not counting Lothering) is in Denerim, where the Royalist troops are. If anything, the Banns should be in a much better position for civil war than the King or Queen.

[Drizzt ORierdan]

I know your meaning, but you give the Landsmeet too much credit, like it were the King`s Council or smthg... If you have already established a royal lineage, you are on your way to absolute monarchy.

Sure, you will have to consult to some major decisions, like going to war, and stuff; but NOT EVERY decision, man! In the game the Landsmeet is summoned cause theres no legitimate authority alive (king) or heir. So even the Queen cant govern for herself, so much for the "equality" of sexes.



SPOILER AWAKENING When you are managing the Keep, is not like the lords join you and cast a vote, YOU have the decisive voice, even when you are an outsider... and they have to comply.



Your picture of "perfectly democratic" feudal society applies more to the vikings than to 1200s England, and that I think is more or less the source...

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

I don't think Leliana could ever become Queen though if she had children with the Warden(Human). The children could become very powerful figures if you are the Teyrn of Gwarn(I think that is the name) say Fergus doesn't have any children. You could have Alistair and Anora alone or together on the throne. Possibly without an heir; Anora is in her 30s and possibly barren while Alistair has the whole Grey Warden thing. If you spared Loghain and Anora is barren; I think the Hero of Fereldon's children would be a popular pick for her to be her heirs Especially if you are a Cousland possibly even viable for a Mage if his children aren't magically attuned. Then lets say Alistair was on the throne by himself, and you guys were BFF(killed Loghain), and he never produced an heir. If I was in his shoes I would give it to the Warden's 'children since Conner is a mage and wouldn't be a popular pick. Now if they are ruling together and they don't produce an heir, but one of them dislikes you for the whole Loghain thing; but Anora is going to outlive Alistair and the Warden; Alistair would not be able to stop Anora if she did see the Warden's children more fit than any other heirs, so if you spared Loghain and married them I could see it happening, but if you killed Loghain I doubt Anora would do anything to help your children.



Warden+Leliana children(if they have them) have a lot going for them if you do choose the title and riches boon. Warden+Leliana are heroes they are probably in good standing with almost every political force. Their children would be raised as nobles their parents are both Fereldon born; Leliana is from Fereldon, but was raised in Orlais. Even if Fergus had children I still think they would be at a disadvantage to the Warden's children.



Leliana though herself couldn't ever be Queen unless like Alistair declared the Warden his heir instead of Anora or Anora declared the Warden heir, or I guess if you didn't romance her and Alistair is on the throne by himself he could name her his Queen.



It is all speculation and fantasy though and probably will be; I doubt we get to know anything about the second generation of DA until a third or fourth DA game if they choose to make that many.

[epoch_]

She'd be a ****ing awesome queen. This won't ever happen, and I doubt she'd even want the job, but there ya go.

[burrito]

Being of Fereldan blood raised in Orlais could actually be an advantage in the recovery and growth of Fereldan. Wouldn't popularity with the chantry her any?

[Drizzt ORierdan]

epoch_ wrote...

She'd be a ****ing awesome queen. This won't ever happen, and I doubt she'd even want the job, but there ya go.

You should just show her the last Queen's shoe collection and she'd jump right in...  

[Indoctrination]

Drizzt ORierdan wrote...

I know your meaning, but you give the Landsmeet too much credit, like it were the King`s Council or smthg... If you have already established a royal lineage, you are on your way to absolute monarchy.

No, that is factually incorrect. Absolute Monarchy is a form of government where the monarch is absolute and is not obligated to comply with any restrictions or restraints.

Sure, you will have to consult to some major decisions, like going to war, and stuff; but NOT EVERY decision, man! In the game the Landsmeet is summoned cause theres no legitimate authority alive (king) or heir. So even the Queen cant govern for herself, so much for the "equality" of sexes.

No one said "every decision." But the sovereign does have to consult on issues that affect the autonomy of the bannorn, and ultimately the feudal contract which binds them to the throne, and that would include succession issues.

SPOILER AWAKENING When you are managing the Keep, is not like the lords join you and cast a vote, YOU have the decisive voice, even when you are an outsider... and they have to comply. Your picture of "perfectly democratic" feudal society applies more to the vikings than to 1200s England, and that I think is more or less the source...

Amaranthine is an Arldom owned by the Grey Wardens, so that's a very bad example. Furthermore, England is the perfect example of a feudal kingdom where the King's power is restricted. In feudal England after the defeat of King John by his Barons, the power of the crown was limited in many ways such as not being able to collect taxes without the consent of parliament.

Modifié par Indoctrination, 07 août 2010 - 03:32 .

[Indoctrination]

burrito wrote...

Being of Fereldan blood raised in Orlais could actually be an advantage in the recovery and growth of Fereldan. Wouldn't popularity with the chantry her any?

If you read The Stolen Throne, you'd know that the Chantry likes winners.

*Spoilers*

When it became clear that the Orlesians were losing, Ferelden's Revered Mother quickly switched sides over to King Maric's rebels. Before then she was a member of the court of the Orlesian King of Ferelden, Megren.

Modifié par Indoctrination, 07 août 2010 - 03:20 .

[epoch_]

Drizzt ORierdan wrote...

epoch_ wrote...

She'd be a ****ing awesome queen. This won't ever happen, and I doubt she'd even want the job, but there ya go.

You should just show her the last Queen's shoe collection and she'd jump right in...  

Oh, i forgot about the shoes and pretty dresses!

Modifié par epoch_, 07 août 2010 - 03:19 .