198 réponses à ce sujet

[burrito]

I think they would put an Orlesian on the throne before a Dwarf, Elf, or Mage. Beside Anora just wanted to stay in power, that's why she married the Warden. So in my opinion Anora is a threat.

[Aedan_Cousland]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

burrito wrote...

Cousland popularity vs the Daughter of a traitor

Anora is enormously popular in Ferelden which is part of the reason why she is the best option for true peace. (either through marriage to Alistair, the Warden, or sole rule as Queen) If Alistair rules alone there is unrest in the kingdom.

You can't get rid of Anora without there being negative consequences.

But Alistair is also the blood of Calenhad, many people can view this as an important factor when deciding who should rule. Personally, I'm always making Alistair solo-ruler or married to Anora due to me believing that the king's royal blood should prosper instead of leaving it in the hands of Loghain's daughter.

I always marry off Alistair to Anora as well.

I just don't think it's possible for the main character to wed Anora, and then usurp Anora's crown and take Leliana as his queen. Or at least not possible without civil war. The main character can only become King Consort which means  he is not head of state. (Anora is) He is important only because he's the husband of the Queen and Sovereign.

[Saibh]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Okay. I don't know if this has been said before, and I feel shallow saying it, but if my non-royal Warden isn't allowed to be queen, the Orlesian commoner assassin/bard isn't.

I completely and totally understand why not-Cousland PC can't be queen, but I'm just sayin'.

Mage - controversy with the chantry.
Elf - controversy with humans.
Dwarf - controversy with humans and dwarves.

A-hem.

"I completely and totally understand why not-Cousland PC can't be queen, but I'm just sayin'."

[Dave of Canada]

Saibh wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Okay. I don't know if this has been said before, and I feel shallow saying it, but if my non-royal Warden isn't allowed to be queen, the Orlesian commoner assassin/bard isn't.

I completely and totally understand why not-Cousland PC can't be queen, but I'm just sayin'.

Mage - controversy with the chantry.
Elf - controversy with humans.
Dwarf - controversy with humans and dwarves.

A-hem.

"I completely and totally understand why not-Cousland PC can't be queen, but I'm just sayin'."

I know, just saying that incase other people came into the thread and agreed with you without knowing the reasons.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 08 août 2010 - 10:14 .

[Saibh]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Okay. I don't know if this has been said before, and I feel shallow saying it, but if my non-royal Warden isn't allowed to be queen, the Orlesian commoner assassin/bard isn't.

I completely and totally understand why not-Cousland PC can't be queen, but I'm just sayin'.

Mage - controversy with the chantry.
Elf - controversy with humans.
Dwarf - controversy with humans and dwarves.

A-hem.

"I completely and totally understand why not-Cousland PC can't be queen, but I'm just sayin'."

I know, just saying that incase other people came into the thread and agreed with you without knowing the reasons.

I see. I know a lot of people are sick of hearing about Alistair fangirls whining about not being able to marry him. I know I am, despite being an aforementioned fangirl.

Still, I highly doubt that Leliana will be made queen--and I wouldn't want her to be. It seems unfair, unreasonable, and I don't think Ferelden would allow it to happen in a million years.

[Dave of Canada]

Saibh wrote...

I see. I know a lot of people are sick of hearing about Alistair fangirls whining about not being able to marry him. I know I am, despite being an aforementioned fangirl.

No doubt, I'm a straight guy and even I was heartbroken at that scene. Pretty damn good writing for it to have such an impact, though.

Still, I highly doubt that Leliana will be made queen--and I wouldn't want her to be. It seems unfair, unreasonable, and I don't think Ferelden would allow it to happen in a million years.

Think of the drama, especially if you let Marjolaine live!

( I don't want her to become queen, she's spend too much money on shoes )

[Sjofn]

Bobad wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

It's quite obvious that Anora isn't capable of child birth, so there's no point in her maintaining her position. This is why Cailain was writing (saucy) letters to Celeste I. She is a very competent administrator of course, but one of the the responsibility's of the royal family is to ensure future generations.
Celeste I does make a certain amount of sense, although I'd wager it's perhaps too soon in the present political climate. If Alistair was being prudent, he'd have to 'exile' his wife to a comfortable villa somewhere and take a new one.

It is always a touch amusing that Anora is considered to blame for not having any kids, it does make for an accuratre portrayal of medievel attitudes in the game, but come, on it's just as likely that Cailan is lacking lead in his pencil!

It's especially awesome when someone says she's obviously past childbearing age. She's like ... 29 or something (I believe the Ostagar letter from Eamon says she's approaching her 30th year and STILL NO BABY GASP). And if she gets married, it's to a Grey Warden ... who has fertility issues of his own. Deck is stacked against the lady! Good thing she's a total jerk, or else I'd almost feel bad for her. :innocent:

[Saibh]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Think of the drama, especially if you let Marjolaine live!

( I don't want her to become queen, she's spend too much money on shoes )

It's kinda easy to imagine her as a Marie Antoinette "let her eat cake!" queen (no one correct me on the dauphine's actual personality; I know, I know she didn't actually say that).

[Saibh]

Sjofn wrote...

Bobad wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

It's quite obvious that Anora isn't capable of child birth, so there's no point in her maintaining her position. This is why Cailain was writing (saucy) letters to Celeste I. She is a very competent administrator of course, but one of the the responsibility's of the royal family is to ensure future generations.
Celeste I does make a certain amount of sense, although I'd wager it's perhaps too soon in the present political climate. If Alistair was being prudent, he'd have to 'exile' his wife to a comfortable villa somewhere and take a new one.

It is always a touch amusing that Anora is considered to blame for not having any kids, it does make for an accuratre portrayal of medievel attitudes in the game, but come, on it's just as likely that Cailan is lacking lead in his pencil!

It's especially awesome when someone says she's obviously past childbearing age. She's like ... 29 or something (I believe the Ostagar letter from Eamon says she's approaching her 30th year and STILL NO BABY GASP). And if she gets married, it's to a Grey Warden ... who has fertility issues of his own. Deck is stacked against the lady! Good thing she's a total jerk, or else I'd almost feel bad for her. :innocent:

Thirty is getting quite old to have a baby and survive, which is what I think Eamon means--which is a bit confusing, since I attributed mages to the long life span of Fereldans. Can they not help with royal childbearing?

Besides that, even if Cailan is indeed sterile, they can't very well set him aside, can they? It's better to assume that Anora can't give birth (personally, I think that's her real reason for never marrying; if she married and it was found that again, she couldn't have kids, she'd probably be forced to step aside).

You know, it seems to me like the game is setting up to have another heir crisis--in almost every scenario, no heir to the throne will be born. You have Alistair (Grey Warden fertility problem) and Anora (maybe barren), Alistair and the Warden (impossible), sole Anora (never gets married), or sole Alistair, and there's a big chance he'll never be able to conceive.

[phantomrachie24]

You know, it seems to me like the game is setting up to have another heir crisis--in almost every scenario, no heir to the throne will be born. You have Alistair (Grey Warden fertility problem) and Anora (maybe barren), Alistair and the Warden (impossible), sole Anora (never gets married), or sole Alistair, and there's a big chance he'll never be able to conceive.

I definitely agree with this, they only way that there is even a chance of an heir is if you marry Anora and have Leliana as your mistress, who then might be able to conceive a child that can (a) be passed off as Anora's or ( inherit because there is no one else left and they are a Cousland!

[stevej713]

There should have been an option for the Human Noble to become monarch. I liked Alistair, but I would not want him ruling a country. However, Anora kept stabbing me in the back so I didn't want her in charge.

[Anarya]

stevej713 wrote...

There should have been an option for the Human Noble to become monarch. I liked Alistair, but I would not want him ruling a country. However, Anora kept stabbing me in the back so I didn't want her in charge.

Ah poor Alistair. Everyone thinks he'd be a terrible king. Maybe if he didn't undersell himself so much. At the very worst he's popular but ineffective, and at best he's a very good and well loved king. Not too shabby I think.

[Aedan_Cousland]

Alistair does fairly well if you harden him. He is eager to learn the art of governing from Anora and defers to her judgement when he is out of his league. He also has you or Arl Eamon as his Chancellor and a trusted adviser. Anora & Alistair go on to become beloved by the populace of Ferelden, so he doesn't do too bad.

[Saibh]

phantomrachie24 wrote...

You know, it seems to me like the game is setting up to have another heir crisis--in almost every scenario, no heir to the throne will be born. You have Alistair (Grey Warden fertility problem) and Anora (maybe barren), Alistair and the Warden (impossible), sole Anora (never gets married), or sole Alistair, and there's a big chance he'll never be able to conceive.

I definitely agree with this, they only way that there is even a chance of an heir is if you marry Anora and have Leliana as your mistress, who then might be able to conceive a child that can (a) be passed off as Anora's or ( inherit because there is no one else left and they are a Cousland!

I think it's wishful thinking that the Warden and Leliana would be able to conceive a child, or that Anora would allow that child to become monarch--I think she'd pretty much announce that its the bastard child of an Orlesian woman.

I think maybe a different DA game would concern a power struggle for the Ferelden throne; besides all of the heir troubles I already mentioned, I don't think Fergus would remarry or have children, leaving the Cousland line in question and the next nearest candidate for royalty ineligible.

Anarya wrote...

Ah poor Alistair. Everyone thinks he'd be a terrible king. Maybe if he didn't undersell himself so much. At the very worst he's popular but ineffective, and at best he's a very good and well loved king. Not too shabby I think.

Judging purely from what we saw in the epilogue for DAO, I'd say Alistair is always the better all-around king. Whereas Anora has a few cards about what she did wrong (with some good thrown in, of course), Alistair only  gets ones about what he does right.

I don't think the Human Noble should have had any claim to the throne without Anora or Alistair.

[MKDAWUSS]

This leads to the following question, did King Cousland engage in threesomes with Leliana and Anora?

[Indoctrination]

Bobad wrote...

The intonation being that the initial founding of the republic was to wrest power from a hereditery monarchy to an elected office, if only elected by a very select few, I am well aware of Cromwell's demonstrable puritanical zealotry & some would say genocidal disposition, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

If you take a look at Democracy Index 2008, you can clearly see that most of the top most democratic countries in the world today are monarchies. Assuming that a country would become more democratic by becoming a republic is comically ignorant of history. In case you are curious: a330.g.akamai.net/7/330/25828/20081021185552/graphics.eiu.com/PDF/Democracy Index 2008.pdf

The top 10 most democratic countries in the world right now are:

1. Sweden (Monarchy)
2. Norway (Monarchy)
3. Iceland (Republic)
4. Netherlands (Monarchy)
5. Denmark (Monarchy)
6. Finland (Republic)
7. New Zealand (Monarchy)
8. Switzerland (Republic)
9. Luxembourg (Monarchy)
10. Australia (Monarchy)

Here are the top 10 LEAST democratic countries in the world right now:

1. North Korea (Republic)
2. Chad (Republic)
3. Turkmenistan (Republic)
4. Uzbekistan (Republic)
5. Burma (Republic)
6. Central African Republic (Republic)
7. Saudi Arabia (Monarchy)
8. Guinea-Bisseau (Republic)
9. Libya (Republic)
10. Guinea (Republic)

I  am biased as an anti-monarchist and freely admit as much, however Cromwell is far from universely despised,
at number 10 here just behind Horatio Nelson.

http://en.wikipedia....reatest_Britons

I hate to quote wikipedia as anything approaching quantifiable evidence but it's the most definitive listing of the BBC poll conducted.

I believe there was a similar poll done in Russia and Joseph Stalin came 3rd. Historical villains are very popular these days, but that doesn't suddenly pardon them from any of the terrible things that they did.

Modifié par Indoctrination, 09 août 2010 - 03:54 .

[MKDAWUSS]

burrito wrote...

I think they would put an Orlesian on the throne before a Dwarf, Elf, or Mage. Beside Anora just wanted to stay in power, that's why she married the Warden. So in my opinion Anora is a threat.

And Eamon wanted power and was going to rule Ferelden with Alistair as proxy.

[Saibh]

Indoctrination wrote...

Bobad wrote...

The intonation being that the initial founding of the republic was to wrest power from a hereditery monarchy to an elected office, if only elected by a very select few, I am well aware of Cromwell's demonstrable puritanical zealotry & some would say genocidal disposition, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Things will start to get ugly if we start discussing politics, you realize?

[Riona45]

Saibh wrote...
Judging purely from what we saw in the epilogue for DAO, I'd say Alistair is always the better all-around king. Whereas Anora has a few cards about what she did wrong (with some good thrown in, of course)...

I made Anora the queen (by herself) on my playthrough, and the only thing I can remember that she did "wrong"* was how she handled the city elf situation.  And of course, no matter who you pick as the monarch, the Alienage still exists and, according to the interactive map that was released a few weeks ago, it is still in bad shape while the rest of the city was rebuilt.

I get that people dislike Anora, but I also think people overstate her weaknesses.  I would say my epilogue showed Anora as mostly a good queen with one bad thing thrown in.



*And, while I would agree that it was wrong, how she handled the elves was likely how the vast majority of nobles would have handled them, and they wouldn't see her as a "bad queen" for it either.

Modifié par Riona45, 09 août 2010 - 04:16 .

[Saibh]

Riona45 wrote...

Saibh wrote...
Judging purely from what we saw in the epilogue for DAO, I'd say Alistair is always the better all-around king. Whereas Anora has a few cards about what she did wrong (with some good thrown in, of course)...

I made Anora the queen (by herself) on my playthrough, and the only thing I can remember that she did "wrong"* was how she handled the city elf situation.  And of course, no matter who you pick as the monarch, the Alienage still exists and, according to the interactive map that was released a few weeks ago, it is still in bad shape while the rest of the city was rebuilt.

I get that people dislike Anora, but I also think people overstate her weaknesses.  I would say my epilogue showed Anora as mostly a good queen with one bad thing thrown in.



*And, while I would agree that it was wrong, how she handled the elves was likely how the vast majority of nobles would have handled them, and they wouldn't see her as a "bad queen" for it either.

I don't mean she was necessarily a bad queen, but I would say she's not necessarily stronger than Alistair. I also cite that she refuses to get married as being a big thing she does wrong. There's no obvious heir for the throne, and not getting married is her not even trying to produce one. Being power-hungry doesn't necessarily make you a bad ruler--see Bhelen--but I find that her actions regarding the Warden if she sides with Alistair is pretty damn stupid, and that affects how I see she would rule as a queen.

Alistair, however, doesn't do anything particularly bad in his epilogue; hardened, he does very well.

I guess we'll see in DA2--personally, I think Alistair would do alright; I just think Anora wouldn't do much better.

[Riona45]

Saibh wrote...

I don't mean she was necessarily a bad queen, but I would say she's not necessarily stronger than Alistair.

That's fair.  I had a number of reasons for not making him king, but I don't think he necessarily would have been a bad one.

PS:  Regarding Anora, I have a strong feeling that she is in fact infertile.  I agree with the theory that she might be avoiding marriage as a way of dodging that issue. 

Modifié par Riona45, 09 août 2010 - 04:35 .

[Arijharn]

Perhaps it's true that Cailan is just as likely to be infertile, but no one in their society would really dare suggest it.

[Saibh]

Arijharn wrote...

Perhaps it's true that Cailan is just as likely to be infertile, but no one in their society would really dare suggest it.

I don't think "dare" suggest it is the right word--it's just that you can't tell if he's not explicitly trying with another woman; even if he is sterile, he's the Theirin king, and he can't be put aside.

[Riona45]

Arijharn wrote...

Perhaps it's true that Cailan is just as likely to be infertile, but no one in their society would really dare suggest it.

Oh, you're right--it's possible Cailan was infertile. 

However, as someone who is looking at the story from the outside rather from within the setting, it seems like Ferelden is going to be without an heir to the throne regardless of what outcome you pick at the Landsmeet, resulting in a juicy plot point later. 

[Arijharn]

But he was going to try with someone else... Celeste I. (From the secret documents recovered in Return to Ostagar).



While I may be taking this out of context remember when you first enter Ostagar?

• King Cailan's 'tent guard' mentions (with a persuade check) that recently Cailan and Loghain have been arguing, about Anora.

• Cailan has been engaging with a secret correspondence with Celese I. This correspondance, IIRC, was highly personal, with tender comments from both (but not outright).

• If you recruited Loghain and discover these documents, Loghain is very pissed.



To me at least, it's obvious that Cailan had pretty much given up on Anora (even if he may be the one at 'fault') and wanted perhaps a closer alliance with Orlais. Celeste I seems to be pretty damn intelligent, even crafty, to do herself what it would take her army, to 'conquer' Ferelden by merely inviting its King into her bedchambers. I think it's more than likely that he'd jump her bones too if he got the chance. Hers would have also likely have less backlash. Even if she did it out of a sense of Altruism, the significance of just how long ago (what, a single generation?) the Orlesians were forced out of Ferelden would surely not be lost on the Bannorn.