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[Riona45]

Saibh wrote...

Riona, I think that's what he means.

Thank you.

Yeah, rightly or wrongly, the boon you can ask for can be a pretty big deal.  You can free the mage Circle of Ferelden from the oversight of the Chantry simply by asking for it...something that for mages would have seemed well out of reach if not absolutely impossible and pointless to hope for.

Good point, though, that a Cousland wielding that much political power (Queen, Teyrna, Arlessa, etc.) would probably raise the hackles of at least some nobles.  After all, look at the political fallout you have to deal with in Awakening, with just an Arling. 

Modifié par Riona45, 10 août 2010 - 05:11 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

One of the things I find interesting about the Cousland family, is that it fought against Calenhad when was he waging a war to unite Ferelden under one banner. The Couslands fought to keep Highever independent, but in the end they were forced to swear fealty to Calenhad to keep their teyrnir. Years later (perhaps centuries?) the Couslands allied with Sophia Dryden in a failed attempt to overthrow King Arland, one of Calenhad's descendants. Several of the Couslands were beheaded for treason by order of the King.

Considering their occasionally rocky relationship with the Theirin family, it's kind of interesting that  a Cousland Warden and Alistair, a Theirin, could become such steadfast allies. Granted the Couslands in more modern times are considered staunch supporters of the Theirin Kings, but recent history and personal relationships still don't justify Alistair granting the Teyrnir of Gwaren to your Warden while Fergus gains the Teyrnir of Highever. It's kind of a bone-headed move politically to grant so much power to one family other than your own, particularly a family who in centuries past has occasionally been a thorn in the side of your family. And who knows if there won't eventually be some descendant of Fergus or the Warden who swears revenge for the beheading of his ancestors at the hands of the Theirins? The Howes after all had an ancient grudge agains the Couslands, and Arl Rendon Howe certainly hadn't forgotten that grudge.

[Arijharn]

You are no longer the heir of Highever. While Iona/Dairren mentions that you are more likely to succeed the Teyrnir from your father, all of that goes up in smoke when Duncan either recruits or conscripts you.



But still, you are who you are... and while Fergus will obviously re-marry and have another heir, you are no longer really linked to Highever in the same way as before.



Riona, you bring up an interesting point about the Circle of the Magi because as I see it:

a) isn't the Circle of the Magi more of a chantry type organisation as opposed to one that is under the control of the monarch?

couldn't this threaten an Exalted March on Fereldan?

[Dave of Canada]

Arijharn wrote...

You are no longer the heir of Highever. While Iona/Dairren mentions that you are more likely to succeed the Teyrnir from your father, all of that goes up in smoke when Duncan either recruits or conscripts you.

But the thing is, we're still allowed to become King / Teryn of Gwaren / Whatever it is of Amaranthine. Teryn of Highever without Fergus wouldn't be much of a stretch.

[Saibh]

Arijharn wrote...

You are no longer the heir of Highever. While Iona/Dairren mentions that you are more likely to succeed the Teyrnir from your father, all of that goes up in smoke when Duncan either recruits or conscripts you.

But still, you are who you are... and while Fergus will obviously re-marry and have another heir, you are no longer really linked to Highever in the same way as before.

Well...I don't think the "you are no longer the heir of Highever" thing applies simply because Duncan conscripted you. I mean, you can become the king or queen. Or a teyrn/a of Gwaren. And Arl/essa of Amaranthine. The thing about Wardens not having political power seems to be more their rule, than the actual law. And you're the Warden-Commander.

Also, can you be so sure Fergus will remarry? I mean, he lost his wife and child in a pretty brutal way. He might not have it in him. He may, of course, but that doesn't change the fact that, at the time you are awarded the teyrnir of Gwaren, you are the heir of Highever and the sister/brother of the teyrn.

[Riona45]

Arijharn wrote...
Riona, you bring up an interesting point about the Circle of the Magi because as I see it:
a) isn't the Circle of the Magi more of a chantry type organisation as opposed to one that is under the control of the monarch?

Apparently the monarch has enough control to divorce the Circle from the Chantry, or else the option wouldn't have been there.  That's my take anyway.

couldn't this threaten an Exalted March on Fereldan?

That's definitely plausible, although I didn't get anything in my epilogues that stated or implied that an Exalted March was being contemplated.  And of course, an EM could have been contemplated and then dropped for any number of (political) reasons.

[Aedan_Cousland]

I don't think the Warden ever really was the heir to Highever. Fergus should have been as the older brother. Granted Iona/Darrien mentions that you are likely to succeed your father, but I think that was just them speculating based on your reputation.



Either way Fergus gets the Teyrnir of Highever post-Blight, so if the Cousland family holds the Teyrnir of Highever and the Teyrnic of Gwaren (which can be granted to your Warden as a boon), it gets a powerful grip on the country.

[Dave of Canada]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

I don't think the Warden ever really was the heir to Highever. Fergus should have been as the older brother. Granted Iona/Darrien mentions that you are likely to succeed your father, but I think that was just them speculating based on your reputation.

Your father said that you're his most cherished son / daughter and that if anything happens, you're taking charge of Highever. Hell, the reason he's taking Fergus out to war instead of you (even though Fergus has a family) suggests this a little bit.

[Riona45]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Your father said that you're his most cherished son / daughter and that if anything happens, you're taking charge of Highever. Hell, the reason he's taking Fergus out to war instead of you (even though Fergus has a family) suggests this a little bit.

LOL, poor Fergus, by the way some in here tell it, no one really thinks he's worth a damn.

[Saibh]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

I don't think the Warden ever really was the heir to Highever. Fergus should have been as the older brother. Granted Iona/Darrien mentions that you are likely to succeed your father, but I think that was just them speculating based on your reputation.

Your father said that you're his most cherished son / daughter and that if anything happens, you're taking charge of Highever. Hell, the reason he's taking Fergus out to war instead of you (even though Fergus has a family) suggests this a little bit.

It struck me that Fergus was sort of a family man. He'd make a good knight and a good father, sort of the way I saw Ser Gilmore, but not necessarily a good ruler.

[Dave of Canada]

Saibh wrote...

It struck me that Fergus was sort of a family man. He'd make a good knight and a good father, sort of the way I saw Ser Gilmore, but not necessarily a good ruler.

The Couslands seemed to rule with kindness though, Fergus could possibly have done a good job as Teryn of Highever. Unlike the Harrowmont choice where good man = bad king, they wouldn't have to worry about people stepping all over them.

Bryce for example seemed to be kind to everybody and it's mentioned a lot that Highever's elves and people are treated a lot better than most people in Ferelden.

[Aedan_Cousland]

Fergus strikes me as cut from the same cloth as Bryce Cousland, so he'll probably be at least as capable as Teyrn of Highever.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 10 août 2010 - 06:50 .

[Arijharn]

Saibh wrote...
Also, can you be so sure Fergus will remarry? I mean, he lost his wife and child in a pretty brutal way. He might not have it in him. He may, of course, but that doesn't change the fact that, at the time you are awarded the teyrnir of Gwaren, you are the heir of Highever and the sister/brother of the teyrn.

I am pretty confident because having another heir is sort of one of the duties as being a member of noble blood (hence our discussions earlier about Cailan essentially having to put Anora aside, even if shock *Cailan* was the one at fault!). I'm not suggesting that he'll forget about Oriana and Oren, but life does go on, and for the nobility, probably more so.

I suppose you are technically correct that you are the heir apparent of Highever at the close of DA though in case something happens to Fergus before he has time to write his will or anything.

[Riona45]

Arijharn wrote...
I am pretty confident because having another heir is sort of one of the duties as being a member of noble blood...

I was thinking the same thing.  As I said before I'm no expert on the personality of Fergus or the Couslands in general, but it's certainly plausible he'd remarry and have an heir out of duty if for no other reason. 

[Aedan_Cousland]

The obligation for Fergus to produce an heir and spare would be greater than ever post-Blight, when the Joining may have made it so that the Warden is much less capable of producing children. Granted the Warden may have fathered Morrigan's child, but that child is a bastard and dark arts were involved in it's conception.

[Xandurpein]

Saibh wrote...

StreetlightEagle wrote...

The idea of being forced to choose between Alistair and a childless Anora still confuses me. If Ferelden was actually Medieval England then neither would have a claim to the throne as Alistair is a bastard and Anora presumably has no trace of royal blood. Even Alistair himself says arl Eamon has more of a claim so you should have been able to choose him or Fergus to become king, especially over Anora.

I'm confused where you're rationalizing this.

Anora is a teyrn's daughter and wife of the deceased king. That's her claim. Also, we don't know that she's barren; it could have been Cailan.

Alistair is a prince--a bastard prince, but the only remaining heir to the bloodline that created their country. Him saying that Eamon has a stronger claim is just him in denial. Eamon himself debunks the claim.

And, again, Ferelden =/= medieval England.

Alistair is NOT a prince. He's not even a bastard prince. You are the one confusing things really. A bastard can be a legitimate heir if the father publically acknowledges the bastard as his. That is for example how William the Conqueror became Duke of Normandy. He was a bastard, but his father had no male heirs in marriage so he made William his heir. Maric did not acknowledge Alistair as his son, consequently he is not a bastard Prince and not an heir to the throne. If he had been an heir to the throne, Anora would not have any chance of getting the throne.

Anora doesn't have any real claim to inherit the throne either, as she was only consort. So it becomes a question of political power. Anora has proven herself a competent ruler in the yes of most Fereldans and has a strong bloc of political supporters, that is the basis of her bid for the throne.

Alistair's claim rests on the power of Arl Eamon and other traditionalist nobles who are willing to acknowledge Alistair as king, even if he is not a Prince to ensure that some of the Theirin blood remains on the throne. What Eamon proposes is in effect to make the Landsmeet vote to acknowledge Alistair as Maric's son on Maric's behalf retroactivly.

Technically a Cousland should have been able to propose himself/herself as monarch too, but they would simply not have enough support to manage it. It is easiest to understand the Landsmeet, after Loghain is deposed, as a conflict between two political blocs, Anora and Arl Eamon. The Warden really only gets to cast the deciding the vote. The Warden would have no chance to name himself King against the will of both Anora's and Arl Eamon's supporters.

If Arl Eamon had decided that he wanted the throne for himself, then Alistair would have had no chance at all of becoming King. Arl Eamon however prefers to have Alistair on the throne because he believes it's important to preserve the royal bloodline and thinks he can still be the strong man of the country as Alistair's advisor.

[Xandurpein]

Riona45 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
I am pretty confident because having another heir is sort of one of the duties as being a member of noble blood...

I was thinking the same thing.  As I said before I'm no expert on the personality of Fergus or the Couslands in general, but it's certainly plausible he'd remarry and have an heir out of duty if for no other reason.

The Couslands were big on duty and presrving the bloodline is certainly a big issue in Ferelden. Fergus would almost certainly try to remarry and raise heris. Not to m,ention the fact that as leader of one of two remaining teyrnies is Ferelden, he would probably be one of the most elgible men in the country. No doubt he would have to fend off Banns, trying to hook their daughters up with him, bodily.

[StreetlightEagle]

stevej713 wrote...

StreetlightEagle wrote...

The idea of being forced to choose between Alistair and a childless Anora still confuses me. If Ferelden was actually Medieval England then neither would have a claim to the throne as Alistair is a bastard and Anora presumably has no trace of royal blood. Even Alistair himself says arl Eamon has more of a claim so you should have been able to choose him or Fergus to become king, especially over Anora.

Did you completely overlook the fact that Anora is the widow of Cailan?

No. If you actually read my comments I've explained why just being Cailan's widow doesn't hold much water.

[Xandurpein]

StreetlightEagle wrote...

stevej713 wrote...

StreetlightEagle wrote...

The idea of being forced to choose between Alistair and a childless Anora still confuses me. If Ferelden was actually Medieval England then neither would have a claim to the throne as Alistair is a bastard and Anora presumably has no trace of royal blood. Even Alistair himself says arl Eamon has more of a claim so you should have been able to choose him or Fergus to become king, especially over Anora.

Did you completely overlook the fact that Anora is the widow of Cailan?

No. If you actually read my comments I've explained why just being Cailan's widow doesn't hold much water.

The situation at the Landsmeet isn't very well explained. But if you read between the lines it's obvious that the two strongest political leaders at the Landsmeet, other than Loghain, is Queen Anora and Arl Eamon. You as Grey Warden do not have the freedom to choose what you want, even if you are all shades of awesome. It's the Landsmeet that decides, not you.

You only have the option of supporting one of the two big power blocs and thus sway those undecided and tip the scale in one way or the other. That's the situation at the Landsmeet, as far as I understand it, and the reason you can only chose between Anora or Alistair (who is favored by Eamon).

If you tried to claim the throne against the wishes of both Anora and Arl Eamon, you wouldn't be able to convince enough Banns to vote for you, because you are a largely unknown person and don't have enough political clout to convince he Landsmeet.

[MKDAWUSS]

Saibh wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

You are no longer the heir of Highever. While Iona/Dairren mentions that you are more likely to succeed the Teyrnir from your father, all of that goes up in smoke when Duncan either recruits or conscripts you.

But still, you are who you are... and while Fergus will obviously re-marry and have another heir, you are no longer really linked to Highever in the same way as before.

Well...I don't think the "you are no longer the heir of Highever" thing applies simply because Duncan conscripted you. I mean, you can become the king or queen. Or a teyrn/a of Gwaren. And Arl/essa of Amaranthine. The thing about Wardens not having political power seems to be more their rule, than the actual law. And you're the Warden-Commander.

Also, can you be so sure Fergus will remarry? I mean, he lost his wife and child in a pretty brutal way. He might not have it in him. He may, of course, but that doesn't change the fact that, at the time you are awarded the teyrnir of Gwaren, you are the heir of Highever and the sister/brother of the teyrn.

You're not really the Arl of Amaranthine, you're just the Commander of the Grey Wardens, who have the Arling of Amaranthine granted to them. If you notice, no one calls you Arl Cousland, Arl Aeducan, Arl Amell (and the last names are all pre-defined and mentioned by other NPCs).

As to being the Teyrn of Gwaren, I'm kinda curious how that would work out if Loghain was still alive...

[iTomes]

Xandurpein wrote...

StreetlightEagle wrote...

stevej713 wrote...

StreetlightEagle wrote...

The idea of being forced to choose between Alistair and a childless Anora still confuses me. If Ferelden was actually Medieval England then neither would have a claim to the throne as Alistair is a bastard and Anora presumably has no trace of royal blood. Even Alistair himself says arl Eamon has more of a claim so you should have been able to choose him or Fergus to become king, especially over Anora.

Did you completely overlook the fact that Anora is the widow of Cailan?

No. If you actually read my comments I've explained why just being Cailan's widow doesn't hold much water.

The situation at the Landsmeet isn't very well explained. But if you read between the lines it's obvious that the two strongest political leaders at the Landsmeet, other than Loghain, is Queen Anora and Arl Eamon. You as Grey Warden do not have the freedom to choose what you want, even if you are all shades of awesome. It's the Landsmeet that decides, not you.

You only have the option of supporting one of the two big power blocs and thus sway those undecided and tip the scale in one way or the other. That's the situation at the Landsmeet, as far as I understand it, and the reason you can only chose between Anora or Alistair (who is favored by Eamon).

If you tried to claim the throne against the wishes of both Anora and Arl Eamon, you wouldn't be able to convince enough Banns to vote for you, because you are a largely unknown person and don't have enough political clout to convince he Landsmeet.

the landsmeet voted against me. i decaputated loghain. the end, i won even tough the landsmeet decided against me.

[MKDAWUSS]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

The obligation for Fergus to produce an heir and spare would be greater than ever post-Blight, when the Joining may have made it so that the Warden is much less capable of producing children. Granted the Warden may have fathered Morrigan's child, but that child is a bastard and dark arts were involved in it's conception.

And how would that then rule out that child's eligibility? A teyrnir has much less political impact that the throne, and Alistair's illegitimate birth didn't eliminate his eligibility for the throne either...

[Anarya]

Riona45 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Your father said that you're his most cherished son / daughter and that if anything happens, you're taking charge of Highever. Hell, the reason he's taking Fergus out to war instead of you (even though Fergus has a family) suggests this a little bit.

LOL, poor Fergus, by the way some in here tell it, no one really thinks he's worth a damn.

Maybe he just doesn't really want to wield a bunch of power. Like Teagan and Alistair. In fact I think the three of them would be bros.

[iTomes]

Anarya wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Your father said that you're his most cherished son / daughter and that if anything happens, you're taking charge of Highever. Hell, the reason he's taking Fergus out to war instead of you (even though Fergus has a family) suggests this a little bit.

LOL, poor Fergus, by the way some in here tell it, no one really thinks he's worth a damn.

Maybe he just doesn't really want to wield a bunch of power. Like Teagan and Alistair. In fact I think the three of them would be bros.

marics been busy......

[Anarya]

iTomes wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Your father said that you're his most cherished son / daughter and that if anything happens, you're taking charge of Highever. Hell, the reason he's taking Fergus out to war instead of you (even though Fergus has a family) suggests this a little bit.

LOL, poor Fergus, by the way some in here tell it, no one really thinks he's worth a damn.

Maybe he just doesn't really want to wield a bunch of power. Like Teagan and Alistair. In fact I think the three of them would be bros.

marics been busy......

Pfft not *literal* bros! Maric's virility aside.