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[Kimarous]

Dagna's research doesn't result in a new Circle if you ask for independence. I know; I asked for independence with my mage character and I let Dagna study at the Circle. Also, I did not do Brother Burkel's quest. There was no implied Exalted March anywhere during those conditions.

Modifié par Kimarous, 09 août 2010 - 12:04 .

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The epilogue in DA:O actually states that, because the Warden helped Dagna, she wrote a theory on lyrium vapors and its relationship to magic that gains a lot of attention, inspiring mages across Thedas to go to Orzammar. The epilogue pretty much states that a new circle is established, and rumors of Orzammar harboring apostates causes outrage in the Chantry, with some thinking the Divine will lead an Exalted March against them. It looks like it doesn't really have anything to do with the Ferelden chapter at Kinloch Hold (the one overseen by First Enchanter Irving). I've heard that the epilogue isn't supposed to contain the line about outrage if you ask for the Circle to be independent, but I've personally always seen it regardless of whether I ask for the Magi boon or not.

The Circle in Orzammar only pops up if you don't help Burkel.

I'm not sure if not helping Burkel would put Orzammar in jeopardy. I mean, is the Chantry really going to freak out because one guy tried to start a Chantry and no one was interested?

I meant the line about outrage from the Divine calling an Exalted March. I've heard it's not supposed to show if you ask for independence for the Circle in Ferelden, although that line has always been there for me regardless of whether I ask for the Circle's independence or not.

Sarah1281 wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The epilogue in DA:O actually states that, because the Warden helped Dagna, she wrote a theory on lyrium vapors and its relationship to magic that gains a lot of attention, inspiring mages across Thedas to go to Orzammar. The epilogue pretty much states that a new circle is established, and rumors of Orzammar harboring apostates causes outrage in the Chantry, with some thinking the Divine will lead an Exalted March against them. It looks like it doesn't really have anything to do with the Ferelden chapter at Kinloch Hold (the one overseen by First Enchanter Irving). I've heard that the epilogue isn't supposed to contain the line about outrage if you ask for the Circle to be independent, but I've personally always seen it regardless of whether I ask for the Magi boon or not.

The Circle in Orzammar only pops up if you don't help Burkel.

I'm not sure if not helping Burkel would put Orzammar in jeopardy. I mean, is the Chantry really going to freak out because one guy tried to start a Chantry and no one was interested?

One word: Arlathalen.

 That was different. The elven gods and the Maker were supposed to be enemies and they already had problems. It wasn't like they got along great or just ignored each other until a missionary came by, no one cared about him, and then the Chantry decided that couldn't be tolerated so they invaded.

Orzamamar and the Divine seem content to ignore each other. If Burkel is a missionary with an established Chantry (which the Shaper needs to okay) and he's slain and the rights of his followers are restricted or they're blatantly allowing a circle of apostates then grumbling makes sense but action may not be taken. Burken not having any luck opening a Chantry? Not really going to cause an international incident.

I can see Bhelen removing him if he's having no luck the same way he removes the Harrowmont crier or how he sends the sons and daughters of his political opponents to war - he doesn't allow any threat to his power. Given how much the Chantry needs Orzammar's lyrium, its a strong reason for the Divine not to start an Exalted March against Orzammar, but it depends on the type of person the Divine is.

[LobselVith8]

Kimarous wrote...

Dagna's research doesn't result in a new Circle if you ask for independence. I know; I asked for independence with my mage character and I let Dagna study at the Circle. Also, I did not do Brother Burkel's quest. There was no implied Exalted March anywhere during those conditions.

I've heard this was the case (although I wonder why the Chantry would consider attacking Orzammar - the source of their lyrium, and not Ferelden). Maybe my epilogue slides were bugged.

Based on letter that was bugged in DA:A, Leliana mentions being called to see the Grand Cleric. I'd imagine, given her claim that she saw a vision from the Maker and helping stop the Blight, she might factor into any idea the Divine might have about attacking Ferelden.

[MKDAWUSS]

Kimarous wrote...
As for the Templars constantly hunting Anders and claiming that their authority even supercedes the crown of Fereldan, I think that was more an isolated case of a stubborn-as-hell zealot who was probably a bit lyrium-addled.

Bann Alfstanna mentions that nobles don't have authority over Templars. She acted within her rights/duties as a templar in trying to apprehend Anders.

[MKDAWUSS]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kimarous wrote...

Dagna's research doesn't result in a new Circle if you ask for independence. I know; I asked for independence with my mage character and I let Dagna study at the Circle. Also, I did not do Brother Burkel's quest. There was no implied Exalted March anywhere during those conditions.

I've heard this was the case (although I wonder why the Chantry would consider attacking Orzammar - the source of their lyrium, and not Ferelden). Maybe my epilogue slides were bugged.

If you can gain a bunch of Dwarven converts, including those in high places (I don't think the current monarch would be one of them, though -- Harrowmont's too traditional, and I don't think Bhelen's the religious type [Dwarven religion or otherwise]), you then have that much of an easier time controlling the lyrium trade, since you now have the religious doctrine card in your favor.

I think Burkel would have had an easier time among the populace if he embraced Paragons like Saints, allowing the populace to still keep their traditions while adopting the new religion. Heck, the Dwarves could then see Andraste as a Paragon FCOL.

[Big I]

ArawnNox wrote...

One word: Arlathalen.

I do believe you mean Halamshiral; Arlathen was destroyed by the Imperium.

Kimarous wrote...
Dagna's research doesn't result in a new
Circle if you ask for independence. I know; I asked for independence
with my mage character and I let Dagna study at the Circle. Also, I did
not do Brother Burkel's quest. There was no implied Exalted March
anywhere during those conditions.

Something's bugged somewhere, because I finished a mage run 3 days ago with the mages sided with, Dagna at the circle, no Burkel quests done, and the Magi boon asked for, and I got the new circle in Orzammar being set up and the Divine contemplating an Exalted March.

As to whether the Divine would contemplate an Exalted March on Fereldan, I don't think she would, although she wouldn't be happy about things. Although making mages lords or giving the Circle independence is close to what the Imperial Chantry did, it differs in that all other Chantry resources (Templars, Chantries, etc) still recognise the authority of Val Royeaux. This fact is particularly important if the Urn of Sacred Ashes has been found; she'd want that under Chantry authority.

[maxernst]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kimarous wrote...

Dagna's research doesn't result in a new Circle if you ask for independence. I know; I asked for independence with my mage character and I let Dagna study at the Circle. Also, I did not do Brother Burkel's quest. There was no implied Exalted March anywhere during those conditions.

I've heard this was the case (although I wonder why the Chantry would consider attacking Orzammar - the source of their lyrium, and not Ferelden). Maybe my epilogue slides were bugged.

If you can gain a bunch of Dwarven converts, including those in high places (I don't think the current monarch would be one of them, though -- Harrowmont's too traditional, and I don't think Bhelen's the religious type [Dwarven religion or otherwise]), you then have that much of an easier time controlling the lyrium trade, since you now have the religious doctrine card in your favor.

I think Burkel would have had an easier time among the populace if he embraced Paragons like Saints, allowing the populace to still keep their traditions while adopting the new religion. Heck, the Dwarves could then see Andraste as a Paragon FCOL.

How very Jesuitical that would be.  I don't think the Chantry does saints, though.

Modifié par maxernst, 11 août 2010 - 02:07 .

[Itkovian]

Quite frankly, I doubt very much that having the Ferelden Circle becoming independent means a complete severing of ties with the Chantry.

What it probably means is that they are free to direct their own actions. First Enchanter Irving no longer answers to the Chantry, and the Circle members can do what they wish without getting permissions from the Chantry and Templars for everything.

However, I doubt very much they are being left alone by the Chantry. Surely they will managed to maintain some sort of surveillance on the Circle Tower. At the very least, I am certain that the Chantry will stand ready to send forces in should the Circle go "astray", just as I am certain that Irving is aware that if they go too far they will risk having the Chantry fall on them.

So if, for example, the Chantry finds out blood magic is being permitted in the Circle Tower, odds are a templar army or three would move in and eradicate it.

And you can bet that, if the Circle is granted independence, the number of Templars stationed in Ferelden will strangely be multipled in short order.

That does not mean an Exhalted March, however, but rather simply that the Chantry will be ready to strike against the Circle when it falters (not if, as far as the Chantry is concerned that circle will certainly turn into maleficars *grin*).

Itkovian

[ArawnNox]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

One word: Arlathalen.

I do believe you mean Halamshiral; Arlathen was destroyed by the Imperium.

Kimarous wrote...
Dagna's research doesn't result in a new
Circle if you ask for independence. I know; I asked for independence
with my mage character and I let Dagna study at the Circle. Also, I did
not do Brother Burkel's quest. There was no implied Exalted March
anywhere during those conditions.

Something's bugged somewhere, because I finished a mage run 3 days ago with the mages sided with, Dagna at the circle, no Burkel quests done, and the Magi boon asked for, and I got the new circle in Orzammar being set up and the Divine contemplating an Exalted March.

As to whether the Divine would contemplate an Exalted March on Fereldan, I don't think she would, although she wouldn't be happy about things. Although making mages lords or giving the Circle independence is close to what the Imperial Chantry did, it differs in that all other Chantry resources (Templars, Chantries, etc) still recognise the authority of Val Royeaux. This fact is particularly important if the Urn of Sacred Ashes has been found; she'd want that under Chantry authority.

I think you're right, for some reason I keep attributing that name to the place the daelish had when the Exalted March was called on them. Elven history repeats itself a lot >.>

[LobselVith8]

Itkovian wrote...

Quite frankly, I doubt very much that having the Ferelden Circle becoming independent means a complete severing of ties with the Chantry.

I don't think many mages would permit Irving to give any concessions to the Chantry, especially a Mage Warden. Consider that the Chantry had an iron grip on the Circle, where templars were forcing people to be in a literal prison, turning them into virtual slaves, ingraining people to hate you because of what the Tevinters did, and stealing your children from you isn't something that many would ever allow to happen again if they had the opportunity to be free. The whole reason for the Magi boon isn't that mages shouldn't be properly taught magic, it's that mages should not be imprisoned because they have magical ability. Having the templars have anything to do with the Circle undercuts that independence (and the entire purpose of the royal boon) entirely.

Itkovian wrote...

What it probably means is that they are free to direct their own actions. First Enchanter Irving no longer answers to the Chantry, and the Circle members can do what they wish without getting permissions from the Chantry and Templars for everything. 

I think with most of the older members dead because of the Urving revolt, and many younger members likely to take positions of authority, it's a change of change. Even Irving had problems with the Chantry and templars who really ran the Circle (which is evident if you speak with him about Jowan being made tranquil). I don't doubt that the Chantry would have issue with an independent Circle, but considering that a Mage Warden asks for independence, I think the added bonus of having a powerful and popular mage in Ferelden who defeated the Archdemon and the mages playing a role in stopping the Blight would work in their favor.

Itkovian wrote...

However, I doubt very much they are being left alone by the Chantry. Surely they will managed to maintain some sort of surveillance on the Circle Tower. At the very least, I am certain that the Chantry will stand ready to send forces in should the Circle go "astray", just as I am certain that Irving is aware that if they go too far they will risk having the Chantry fall on them.
So if, for example, the Chantry finds out blood magic is being permitted in the Circle Tower, odds are a templar army or three would move in and eradicate it.

Considering how inept they were in handling Uldred's rebellion, I don't see the Crown sanctioning the templars to oversee the Ferelden Circle. And I'm certain a Warden who becomes Commander of the Grey and has the army of Amaranthine at his disposal isn't going to simply permit Orlais to send templars into the nation whenever they feel like it.

Itkovian wrote...

And you can bet that, if the Circle is granted independence, the number of Templars stationed in Ferelden will strangely be multipled in short order.
That does not mean an Exalted March, however, but rather simply that the Chantry will be ready to strike against the Circle when it falters (not if, as far as the Chantry is concerned that circle will certainly turn into maleficars *grin*).
Itkovian

They might try, but they would need the permission of the Crown to do so. I can't imagine a Mage Warden who bothers to ask for independence for the Circle is going to permit the Chantry to send legions of templars into Ferelden without incident or even let them strike against the Circle for any reason. They were inept, they couldn't handle the abominations, and all of Ferelden would have come under siege because they couldn't defeat them and instead ran away. I don't see this as a ringing endorsement for the templars to have anything to do with the Circle or the mages.

[Janni-in-VA]

"They were inept, they couldn't handle the abominations, and all of Ferelden would have come under siege because they couldn't defeat them and instead ran away."



While I agree with most of your post, I do have to take issue with this statement.

I believe that the number of dead and possessed Templars is ample proof that they didn't run away. Cullen confirms that by telling the Warden how he watched his brothers die.



Beyond this, I do have a few random thoughts. Templars are the military arm of the Chantry, but what if they weren't? What if freedom for the mages also meant, to some extent, freedom for the Templars? There are instances where Templars are necessary. They do need to stand at Harrowings, and they do need, on occasion, to actually protect mages from those who are afraid of them. If the Circle is free to assign its people as it sees fit, then the job of hunting "apostates" drops to near zero since there wouldn't be as many people, like Anders, who spend half their lives figuring out ways to escape from the Tower and the other half being dragged back. So, what if what we see is a new relationship between Templars and mages? What if the focus shifts from "oh Maker they're all abominations waiting to happen" to "this is my family to guard and protect." Templars could partner mages, learning about them and their magic so that they know what feels and looks right and what doesn't. Templars have an awareness of the Veil and entities which might cross it (as evidenced by Ser Otto in the Alienage). This awareness could be refined and used, say, to protect an apprentice who might be on the verge of getting in over her/his head with a particular spell. So, Templars could become proactive partners rather than simply jailers and potential executioners.

The Chantry no longer controls mages, but there's still a need to protect mages and the people they might harm if they become abominations. We have a decimated Circle, including the Templar contingent stationed there. Sounds like a perfect time for change.

[LobselVith8]

Janni-in-VA wrote...

"They were inept, they couldn't handle the abominations, and all of Ferelden would have come under siege because they couldn't defeat them and instead ran away."

While I agree with most of your post, I do have to take issue with this statement.
I believe that the number of dead and possessed Templars is ample proof that they didn't run away. Cullen confirms that by telling the Warden how he watched his brothers die.

I meant Knight-Commander Greagoir and his men outside the big door, but you have a point.

Janni-in-VA wrote...

Beyond this, I do have a few random thoughts. Templars are the military arm of the Chantry, but what if they weren't? What if freedom for the mages also meant, to some extent, freedom for the Templars? There are instances where Templars are necessary. They do need to stand at Harrowings, and they do need, on occasion, to actually protect mages from those who are afraid of them. If the Circle is free to assign its people as it sees fit, then the job of hunting "apostates" drops to near zero since there wouldn't be as many people, like Anders, who spend half their lives figuring out ways to escape from the Tower and the other half being dragged back. So, what if what we see is a new relationship between Templars and mages?

I think it's an issue that the Chantry is located in Orlais and has spread its influence throughout the continent of Thedas, with Ferelden being one nation among many. Ferelden's ruler can change how things are done within Ferelden, but it only applies there. To me, the opportunity for a Mage Warden to ask for independence means an irrevocable change within Ferelden. Considering how templars have hunted down and oppressed mages, I'm wondering if mages would even consider having them have any part with the Circle anymore. The entire point of Uldred's revolt was that mages wanted freedom from the templars and the Chantry.

Concerning Anders, I wonder if the templars inability to kill him during his escapes was a key point that they could no longer kill mages (since Wynne's apprentice was a young boy and the templars tried to kill him for running away from the tower). In the US, the templars only remain with the mages until a new tower is built since the veil is too thin, perhaps that's why the templars were hunting down Anders.

Janni-in-VA wrote...

What if the focus shifts from "oh Maker they're all abominations waiting to happen" to "this is my family to guard and protect." Templars could partner mages, learning about them and their magic so that they know what feels and looks right and what doesn't. Templars have an awareness of the Veil and entities which might cross it (as evidenced by Ser Otto in the Alienage). This awareness could be refined and used, say, to protect an apprentice who might be on the verge of getting in over her/his head with a particular spell. So, Templars could become proactive partners rather than simply jailers and potential executioners.

I think the issue would be their past role as jailers and executioners. In the Magi Origin, a templar named Cullen makes reference that templars talked about such things with glee, so I can see many mages having issue with them having anything to do with the Circle given such a mindset.

Janni-in-VA wrote...

The Chantry no longer controls mages, but there's still a need to protect mages and the people they might harm if they become abominations. We have a decimated Circle, including the Templar contingent stationed there. Sounds like a perfect time for change.

I agree completely.

[Sarah1281]

Concerning Anders, I wonder if the templars inability to kill him during his escapes was a key point that they could no longer kill mages (since Wynne's apprentice was a young boy and the templars tried to kill him for running away from the tower). In the US, the templars only remain with the mages until a new tower is built since the veil is too thin, perhaps that's why the templars were hunting down Anders.

I doubt it. Anders claims that they don't kill him because they know he's not a blood mage and Rylock didn't seem to have any problem announcing her plans to have Anders killed for the Templar deaths pre-conscription and no one standing there (including the King/Queen) tried to tell her she couldn't do that.

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lobselvith66 wrote...

Concerning Anders, I wonder if the templars inability to kill him during his escapes was a key point that they could no longer kill mages (since Wynne's apprentice was a young boy and the templars tried to kill him for running away from the tower). In the US, the templars only remain with the mages until a new tower is built since the veil is too thin, perhaps that's why the templars were hunting down Anders.

I doubt it. Anders claims that they don't kill him because they know he's not a blood mage and Rylock didn't seem to have any problem announcing her plans to have Anders killed for the Templar deaths pre-conscription and no one standing there (including the King/Queen) tried to tell her she couldn't do that.

I meant that Anders had escaped several times without being killed by templars, while Wynne's apprentice Aneirin was hunted without mercy for fleeing the tower when he was a young boy. The only reason I can see nobody killing Anders is because the King or Queen stipulated that templars can no longer kill mages simply for running away from the Circle. Although it's possible that Anders was supposed to be from the Orlesian Circle because I read in another thread that he's supposed to actually say to an Orlesian Mage that he recognizes them, which would explain why a templar is hunting down a mage despite the Magi boon.

[Sarah1281]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lobselvith66 wrote...

Concerning Anders, I wonder if the templars inability to kill him during his escapes was a key point that they could no longer kill mages (since Wynne's apprentice was a young boy and the templars tried to kill him for running away from the tower). In the US, the templars only remain with the mages until a new tower is built since the veil is too thin, perhaps that's why the templars were hunting down Anders.

I doubt it. Anders claims that they don't kill him because they know he's not a blood mage and Rylock didn't seem to have any problem announcing her plans to have Anders killed for the Templar deaths pre-conscription and no one standing there (including the King/Queen) tried to tell her she couldn't do that.

I meant that Anders had escaped several times without being killed by templars, while Wynne's apprentice Aneirin was hunted without mercy for fleeing the tower when he was a young boy. The only reason I can see nobody killing Anders is because the King or Queen stipulated that templars can no longer kill mages simply for running away from the Circle. Although it's possible that Anders was supposed to be from the Orlesian Circle because I read in another thread that he's supposed to actually say to an Orlesian Mage that he recognizes them, which would explain why a templar is hunting down a mage despite the Magi boon.

But there simply wasn't enough time for Anders to have run away from the Circle seven times since Origins ended (especially not with that year in solitary confinement) and his situation is the same regardless of whether you have that boon or not.

Just because Aneirin was run through the first time he left doesn't mean it's the policy every time. Perhaps they thought he was more of a risk since he was trying to go to the Dalish and their unsanctioned mages, maybe Anders waited until he had completed his Harrowing to start escaping, maybe the Templars going after Aneirin were just ****s.

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Lobselvith66 wrote...

Concerning Anders, I wonder if the templars inability to kill him during his escapes was a key point that they could no longer kill mages (since Wynne's apprentice was a young boy and the templars tried to kill him for running away from the tower). In the US, the templars only remain with the mages until a new tower is built since the veil is too thin, perhaps that's why the templars were hunting down Anders.

I doubt it. Anders claims that they don't kill him because they know he's not a blood mage and Rylock didn't seem to have any problem announcing her plans to have Anders killed for the Templar deaths pre-conscription and no one standing there (including the King/Queen) tried to tell her she couldn't do that.

I meant that Anders had escaped several times without being killed by templars, while Wynne's apprentice Aneirin was hunted without mercy for fleeing the tower when he was a young boy. The only reason I can see nobody killing Anders is because the King or Queen stipulated that templars can no longer kill mages simply for running away from the Circle. Although it's possible that Anders was supposed to be from the Orlesian Circle because I read in another thread that he's supposed to actually say to an Orlesian Mage that he recognizes them, which would explain why a templar is hunting down a mage despite the Magi boon.

But there simply wasn't enough time for Anders to have run away from the Circle seven times since Origins ended (especially not with that year in solitary confinement) and his situation is the same regardless of whether you have that boon or not.

Just because Aneirin was run through the first time he left doesn't mean it's the policy every time. Perhaps they thought he was more of a risk since he was trying to go to the Dalish and their unsanctioned mages, maybe Anders waited until he had completed his Harrowing to start escaping, maybe the Templars going after Aneirin were just ****s.

I wouldn't say that, it's been about six months since Origins ended. I can see your point about the Magi boon not really impacting the story either way, but I can't imagine any mage running away from the tower more than once and living to tell the tale unless something transpired to change their policy. Given Niall's explanation about apostates in the Magi Origin and how the templar Cullen makes it clear that many templars enjoy killing mages during the Magi origin (he says they talk about it with glee), I can't imagine anyone escaping once, much less several times without being killed, unless something radical happened. I don't see an enviornment that harbors animosity towards mages and giving templars free reign to kill them as a place where a mage can escape seven times without getting killed while a fourteen year old boy running away once has a sword of mercy instead.

[Sarah1281]

How could he possibly escape seven times in six months? And with a year of solitary after at least one of those attempts?

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

How could he possibly escape seven times in six months? And with a year of solitary after at least one of those attempts?

It depends on how quickly he was caught each time, which shouldn't be that long considering that the templars still have his phylactery. Then again, Awakening was intended to be for the Orlesian Warden only, which would explain why the Warden kneels before the King or Queen (which doesn't seem to be a custom for royalty in Ferelden given what we see during DA:O) and I've read in another thread that Anders says he knows an Orlesian Mage Warden from the Circle (which would only apply if Anders was from one of the six Circles in Orlais).