180 réponses à ce sujet

[captain.subtle]

AlexXIV wrote...
Well that's like saying 'I'm a Christian because we can't let the communists win'.

That actually is right. Communism actively repressed religion everywhere.

[iTomes]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well that's like saying 'I'm a Christian because we can't let the communists win'. First off Thedas is everything but free. They have monarchies mostly, thus inherited social standings. People of first, second, third class etc. and some regions even have slavery. But even if the people of Thedas were free I doubt they would need the Chantry to unite against the Qun.

well they actually didn't even unite against the blight. but i also think that the chantry propably could work the other way round. for example: the free marches and the chantry arent liking each other anymore (if they ever did im not sure). the qunari invade the free marches and the chantry thinks "hey let the qunari take out these sinners, THEN well do something and reconquer the free marches, so theyll have to believe in andraste then". now that the qunari invaded the free marches they seek a new aim and find tevinter. now the imperial chantry says "wahhhhh, theyre coming for us waahhhh", and the orlesian (or whatever its called i forgot the name) says "well it worked last time why shouldn't it work this time?? allow the qun to destroy the hated imperial chantry". and wham now we have a global crisis because the chantry didn't do anything.

[Aradace]

Isabelle Mortello wrote...

I really don't think that is the case. She wasn't born that  long ago. Besides the "Witch of the Wilds" makes perfect sense to me and If you can kill a semi-god like Andraste....there is something seriously wrong.

God...Demi-God...It matters not...If it bleeds, it can be killed.  So unless the gods DONT bleed, they CAN be killed

[Batman90]

Arijharn wrote...
You know what? I disagree. If for no other reason that even if the Chantry was built on a scaffold of lies and deceit, it still managed to bring an immense amount of happiness and even comfort to the people of Thedas. Besides, killing off the Chantry just seems so... anti-climatic really.

It also brought plenty of pain and misery to the people of Thedas: a significant portion of the population is persecuted and given a choice between dying or living a life in seclusion with little to no personal freedom (Or having all of their emotions and personality stripped from them, thus resulting in them becoming sub-human husks; it's really a lose-lose-lose situation for mages), the bigotry-based Exalted Marches that made significant enemies between the Chantry and the elves (And pretty much else), any non-believer is called a heathen and shunned for their atheism/choice to follow a different faith...

There really is no argument here. Charity and the like could very well exist without religion backing it up. It's just that religion has, over the course of its long, long existence (In both Thedas and the real world), tried to justify its existence to non-believers by claiming "Well, only WE can bring such charity/goodness to the world," which is an outright lie.

I'd like to see more (Western, as this is a common theme among Japanese games) games where liberty and logic win out over religion in the end, and Dragon Age's world is the prime setting for this to take place.

That actually is right. Communism actively repressed religion everywhere.

Here's a neat little factoid: true communism never actually existed, and true communism is the exact opposite of government oppression. There were plenty of countries that may have CALLED themselves(Or rather, were called) communist over the years, yes, but it doesn't change the fact that they were authoritarian socialist or state capitalist.

Modifié par Batman90, 09 août 2010 - 02:55 .

[Arijharn]

Batman90 wrote...
It also brought plenty of pain and misery to the people of Thedas: a significant portion of the population is persecuted and given a choice between dying or living a life in seclusion with little to no personal freedom (Or having all of their emotions and personality stripped from them, thus resulting in them becoming sub-human husks; it's really a lose-lose-lose situation for mages), the bigotry-based Exalted Marches that made significant enemies between the Chantry and the elves (And pretty much else), any non-believer is called a heathen and shunned for their atheism/choice to follow a different faith...

True, but given the similarities between certain real world religions and the Chantry, perhaps it isn't quite a good idea to ruffle those feathers, or if we do see those ruffled feathers, be unbiased about it. For example, you say "The Chantry has ruined lives!" While undoubtedly true, also show examples where the Chantry has enriched them (even if you feel that such 'enrichment' is merely a sham). Religious arguments haven't gone over well in either Thedas or, as you called it, the Real World.

I would however, like to see more of an effect on the idea of the Chantry conflicting with established religions of other races (The Dalish, the Dwarves, the Qunari) than it does to the 'plenty of pain and misery to the people of Thedas.' Not to those within the realms of those that 'should' belong to the Chantry (aka, humans, City Elves)

Batman90 wrote...
There really is no argument here. Charity and the like could very well exist without religion backing it up. It's just that religion has, over the course of its long, long existence (In both Thedas and the real world), tried to justify its existence to non-believers by claiming "Well, only WE can bring such charity/goodness to the world," which is an outright lie.

Also true. It's also true that many people believe their lives have completely changed (for the better) because they found God, or Allah or Buddha. It's also true that because they have found God, that they wish to spread his message because they believe wholeheartedly that what they are doing is good (They don't see it as 'ramming it down someone's throats' at least)

Incidentally, I'm not exceptionally religious, but I do see that it's transformed people even if I think it's an entirely placebo effect.

Batman90 wrote...
I'd like to see more (Western, as this is a common theme among Japanese games) games where liberty and logic win out over religion in the end, and Dragon Age's world is the prime setting for this to take place.

I'm not sure if you are mistaking religious persecution for religion itself. Those things are not the same thing. Intellectually I'm sure that you're more than capable of seeing the difference but I dunno, the 'vibe' I'm reading from you is contrary to this. Apologies if I offend.

What I want to see of the Chantry is well, unbiased really (not in codex entries, but in the world itself)

[captain.subtle]

Batman90 wrote...

Here's a neat little factoid: true communism never actually existed,

Thank goodness the "TRUE" communism never existed.

and true communism is the exact opposite of government oppression.

i don't know how you found that out.

state capitalist.

That term is a contraction in itself.

EDIT: If you pointing to China.... well... They are a messed up but a profit making country. But not laissez faire. so no, they are not capitalists...

Modifié par captain.subtle, 11 août 2010 - 08:37 .

[Arijharn]

captain.subtle wrote...

Batman90 wrote...

and true communism is the exact opposite of government oppression.

i don't know how you found that out.

I think he means that true communism is supposed to wholly serve the interests of the people. As in, everybody is equal. This is why true communism will never work, because people are by their natures, self-centred.

[captain.subtle]

Arijharn wrote...

This is why true communism will never work, because people are by their natures, self-centred.

This. A minor alteration on my side would be to change Self-centered to comfort loving materialists. By this I mean that people would like to improve their lot by getting better commodities: e.g. Better Houses, Better Cars, Better food etc. This requires profit, which one can not have in Marxist communism as far as I understand it.

I would like to point out that "True communism" (I still need HIS explanation) as described by Marx does not dispose off the government. It just replaces the traditional government with the proletariat rule. And since any government CAN have the potential for oppression, I am mildly curious as to how one does away with "government oppression". The only possible option to government is Anarchy, to which any oppressive government is preferable.

Modifié par captain.subtle, 11 août 2010 - 12:30 .

[OldMan91]

Here's a neat little factoid: true communism never actually existed, and true communism is the exact opposite of government oppression. There were plenty of countries that may have CALLED themselves(Or rather, were called) communist over the years, yes, but it doesn't change the fact that they were authoritarian socialist or state capitalist.

Marry me.

I would like to point out that "True communism" (I still need HIS explanation) as described by Marx does not dispose off the government. It just replaces the traditional government with the proletariat rule. And since any government CAN have the potential for oppression, I am mildly curious as to how one does away with "government oppression". The only possible option to government is Anarchy, to which any oppressive government is preferable.

Let's please keep politics out of this forum. If you want to discuss this, point out some other forum or use PMs.



For more information: http://www.marxists....chive/index.htm

[AlexXIV]

Arijharn wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

Batman90 wrote...

and true communism is the exact opposite of government oppression.

i don't know how you found that out.

I think he means that true communism is supposed to wholly serve the interests of the people. As in, everybody is equal. This is why true communism will never work, because people are by their natures, self-centred.

'I am not a Marxist.'  - Karl Marx

[NKKKK]

captain. subtle is content with the corporate dictatorship that we're living in.

[captain.subtle]

NKKKK wrote...

captain. subtle is content with the corporate dictatorship that we're living in.

And you are forgetting the Trilateral commision! COnspiracy theories rule man! The Corporates are actually ruled by the Green -mean-reptilian-alien scum!

[Zevais]

I can hardly believe that I would get 6 pages of replies from this. Thank you all for your opinions. It is a good read.

[Arijharn]

captain.subtle wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

captain. subtle is content with the corporate dictatorship that we're living in.

And you are forgetting the Trilateral commision! COnspiracy theories rule man! The Corporates are actually ruled by the Green -mean-reptilian-alien scum!

Who dwell in Hollow Earth!

[captain.subtle]

Arijharn wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

captain. subtle is content with the corporate dictatorship that we're living in.

And you are forgetting the Trilateral commision! COnspiracy theories rule man! The Corporates are actually ruled by the Green -mean-reptilian-alien scum!

Who dwell in Hollow Earth!

And eat Human brains for their second breakfast....

[Sevec]

Real world religions are regularly twisted to suit someone's violent desires. The Catholic Church used the peace-loving teachings in the Bible as an excuse to kill (somewhere from about 30,000 to 600,000) people for witchcraft. Obviously there weren't that many people back then eating the flesh of babies.

When Flemeth was slain by her hut in the Kocari Wilds, she somehow came back and travelled to the Free Marches. Why wouldn't she be able to survive being burned at the stake, especially if, as Morrigan claims, she's not human?

[Doyle41]

Flemeth isn't Andraste..........she is her sister.

[Zevais]

Sevec wrote...

Real world religions are regularly twisted to suit someone's violent desires. The Catholic Church used the peace-loving teachings in the Bible as an excuse to kill (somewhere from about 30,000 to 600,000) people for witchcraft. Obviously there weren't that many people back then eating the flesh of babies.
When Flemeth was slain by her hut in the Kocari Wilds, she somehow came back and travelled to the Free Marches. Why wouldn't she be able to survive being burned at the stake, especially if, as Morrigan claims, she's not human?

I know I created this thread... but jeez...

[greekmonkey95]

one thing that i think is that the maker is real in dragon age, or else how could the old gods (might i add that they are huge dragons) be put so far underground that it takes giant hordes of darkspawn years to dig deep enough to find them. that being said, another theory is that Flemeth isnt Andraste but, that Andraste is Flemeth! Think about it, she could be jumping from body to body to live and fufill the Makers plans. When she supposedly died she could've jumped bodies and took a new name... Flemeth.

[Doyle41]

greekmonkey95 wrote...

one thing that i think is that the maker is real in dragon age, or else how could the old gods (might i add that they are huge dragons) be put so far underground that it takes giant hordes of darkspawn years to dig deep enough to find them. that being said, another theory is that Flemeth isnt Andraste but, that Andraste is Flemeth! Think about it, she could be jumping from body to body to live and fufill the Makers plans. When she supposedly died she could've jumped bodies and took a new name... Flemeth.

Why sacrifice her daughters or sleep with so many men though? I understand it could be just legend but.......maker is twisted if this is real stuff.

[greekmonkey95]

maybe that were neccesary for everything to work out? maybe she strayed away from the Maker and got power hungry and wants to shape things as she seems fit? or maybe, the Maker knew she would stray and its all part of his ultimate plan? we may never know.

[Staff777]

Gonna bump this thread because i actually thought of this while on the tredmill this afternoon.....strange i know.



Urn of Sacred Ashes Qline.

Cult convinced that Andraste is a dragon....flemeth is a dragon...



Not first to share that idea but i think its the strongest coincidence there is.

[XBenotto18]

Staff777 wrote...

Gonna bump this thread because i actually thought of this while on the tredmill this afternoon.....strange i know.

Urn of Sacred Ashes Qline.
Cult convinced that Andraste is a dragon....flemeth is a dragon...

Not first to share that idea but i think its the strongest coincidence there is.

I killed the high dragon and I went to flemeths hunt and killed her. Having her just come back to life over and over again would be stupid

[cihimi]

You are mad. Andraste is dead.

[Dreadstruck]

cihimi wrote...

You are mad. Andraste is dead.

"YOU KNOW NOTHING!"

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 23 février 2011 - 08:54 .