74 réponses à ce sujet

[SSV Enterprise]

That's fine.

[Iakus]

As far as exploration goes, ME 1 is leaps and bounds ahead of ME 2



Walking (or driving) across the surface of a planet in ME 1 gave me the feeling of a very large, very old galaxy. Humans are newcomers to it, and not entirely welcome. I loved that feeling of enormity. It added to the epic feel of the game.



Even indoors, like the Citadel, I liked being able to wander about and get lost. Maybe dig up a side quest or an npc to talk to. Like I said, I like it whe the galaxy feels "big"



ME 2, while being far prettier, simply didn't do it for me. Everything was a narrow, straight line, or a cramped room. You couldn't go around and explore a planet. N7 missions primarily made up of "Land. Killl everything that moves. Leave." Hubs are tiny, with side missions that could mostly be completed within site of the questgiver.



If the topic is sidequests, I heartilly endorse the idea of long, detailed side missions that has a lot of traveling involved. Neither game really had much of that (though ME 1 was better (less bad?) in this,

[PWENER]

iakus wrote...

As far as exploration goes, ME 1 is leaps and bounds ahead of ME 2

Walking (or driving) across the surface of a planet in ME 1 gave me the feeling of a very large, very old galaxy. Humans are newcomers to it, and not entirely welcome. I loved that feeling of enormity. It added to the epic feel of the game.

Even indoors, like the Citadel, I liked being able to wander about and get lost. Maybe dig up a side quest or an npc to talk to. Like I said, I like it whe the galaxy feels "big"

ME 2, while being far prettier, simply didn't do it for me. Everything was a narrow, straight line, or a cramped room. You couldn't go around and explore a planet. N7 missions primarily made up of "Land. Killl everything that moves. Leave." Hubs are tiny, with side missions that could mostly be completed within site of the questgiver.

If the topic is sidequests, I heartilly endorse the idea of long, detailed side missions that has a lot of traveling involved. Neither game really had much of that (though ME 1 was better (less bad?) in this,

WHAT HEAVE YOU BEEN SMOKING!!!!!!!!!!!

Exploration in ME1 is like looking for buried treasure without a hovel nor a metal detector. Seriously a pain in the ass. The mineral side quest SUCKED SO MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!

ME2's N7 missions are short, sweet and fun. No hassle included.

[guacamayus]

I think ME1 exploration was better than ME2, there were some amazing planets and almost every skybox was a real beauty but the missions got pretty boring after a while with all those 'copy and paste' building interiors.

[SSV Enterprise]

Enormity? Sure, lots of squares of randomly generated hills and valleys with no features aside from cut-and-paste bunkers can be considered enormous. It's also incredibly dull. And "land, kill everything that moves, leave" can be said of virtually all ME1 side missions as well.



As for hubs, the ME1 Citadel alone was larger than any single hub in ME2, true. But it was also the only true hub of ME1. Zhu's Hope and Port Hanshan had very little to do in ME1, and Virmire and Therum lacked any sort of hub. Overall I think ME2 had more things to do through its hubs than ME1.

[Fhaileas]

iakus wrote...

As far as exploration goes, ME 1 is leaps and bounds ahead of ME 2

Walking (or driving) across the surface of a planet in ME 1 gave me the feeling of a very large, very old galaxy. Humans are newcomers to it, and not entirely welcome. I loved that feeling of enormity. It added to the epic feel of the game.

Even indoors, like the Citadel, I liked being able to wander about and get lost. Maybe dig up a side quest or an npc to talk to. Like I said, I like it whe the galaxy feels "big"

ME 2, while being far prettier, simply didn't do it for me. Everything was a narrow, straight line, or a cramped room. You couldn't go around and explore a planet. N7 missions primarily made up of "Land. Killl everything that moves. Leave." Hubs are tiny, with side missions that could mostly be completed within site of the questgiver.

Could not have said it better myself!

[PWENER]

SSV Enterprise wrote...

Enormity? Sure, lots of squares of randomly generated hills and valleys with no features aside from cut-and-paste bunkers can be considered enormous. It's also incredibly dull. And "land, kill everything that moves, leave" can be said of virtually all ME1 side missions as well.

As for hubs, the ME1 Citadel alone was larger than any single hub in ME2, true. But it was also the only true hub of ME1. Zhu's Hope and Port Hanshan had very little to do in ME1, and Virmire and Therum lacked any sort of hub. Overall I think ME2 had more things to do through its hubs than ME1.

The wise one has spoken.

[Whatever42]

I agree with Iakus about the "feeling" of the game. While I did dislike the mako missions and while I thought the ME1 Citadel was too empty and a little bland, overall ME2 did feel a lot more closed in for me. I wouldn't mind if ME3 opened it up a bit. I think (hope) Bioware is on that track - Overload is obviously far more open and people loved it. So I think everyone has reason to hope.

[SithLordExarKun]

iakus wrote...
As far as exploration goes, ME 1 is leaps and bounds ahead of ME 2

Theres no "exploration" in both games(a little in the second ones galaxy map maybe). In ME1, "exploring" was simply driving around the same exact terrain with different textures and different skyboxes along with the very same cut and paste bunkers, theres nothing to explore in the same barren landscape with the same damn bunker.

In ME2 the worlds look far more varied(N7) and actually have a different feel, problem is its pretty much a small and linear path, the only sense of "exploration" i got in ME2 was flying around in the galaxy map finding landable planets.

Last but not least, i'd rather do 20 great side quests like in FO3 and DAO rather than 40 crap side quests in ME1 and 10 shoot em up missions in ME2.

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 09 août 2010 - 01:53 .

[Fhaileas]

I think for ME2 they didn't think they had to focus on evoking the wonder of space or establishing the backdrop quite as hard anymore. They did some decent stuff on Illium and Omega in fleshing out the galaxy and its races, but there was nothing so beautiful and breathtaking in terms of minor mission worlds as Amaranthine or or the sun of Solcrum anymore. While they had some variety in the sidequests, it wasn't as much as I'd have hoped for planets-wise. 

While I was sometimes annoyed at being forced to drive the Mako over a vast space full of mountains designed to slow my vehicle's speed to an absolute CRAWL, I enjoyed the thresher maw battles, the ability to use a tactical vantage point and make the most of my sniper rifle, and above all, the sense of awe I felt in stepping onto a lonely, uncharted world with only the two friends at my side to experience it with me. 

I think what we wanted was not just improved gameplay hooks but a continuation of that alien feeling. Something lonely and isolated, something quietly sinister, something that fills the player with a compelling realization of how small we are and how big and ancient the galaxy really is.

Modifié par Fhaileas, 09 août 2010 - 03:21 .

[Il Divo]

[quote]Fhaileas wrote...

I think what we wanted was not just improved gameplay hooks but a continuation of that alien feeling. Something lonely and isolated, something quietly sinister, something that fills the player with a compelling realization of how small we are and how big and ancient the galaxy really is.[/quote]
[/quote]

And it's a wonderful sensation the first time around. Unfortunately, when we are forced to do this many times ad infinitum, eventually that sensation fades away. The first time was incredible, the third time is alright, and by the tenth it's almost gone. The sensation eventually becomes replaced with another: boredom. This isn't the case with all fans, but for me that feeling of a 'big and ancient galaxy' is all but gone when I've passed through it for the tenth time (or more).
 
Just my sentiments.

[Cris Shepard]

Mass Effect 1 actually had exploration on planets. Mass Effect 2 had Galaxy Map Exploration, 2 different types. In Mass Effect 2, once you got on the planet, it became linear. I'm hoping they can bring back the open world feel to the game, but we'll see. Maybe a main city along the lines of the Citadel from the first game but with more stores, and places to go.. Maybe a few more hub worlds than just 3. How about 10 this time, or maybe 11.. Just throwing random numbers, the more the better IMO.

[Iakus]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

iakus wrote...
As far as exploration goes, ME 1 is leaps and bounds ahead of ME 2

Theres no "exploration" in both games(a little in the second ones galaxy map maybe). In ME1, "exploring" was simply driving around the same exact terrain with different textures and different skyboxes along with the very same cut and paste bunkers, theres nothing to explore in the same barren landscape with the same damn bunker.

In ME2 the worlds look far more varied(N7) and actually have a different feel, problem is its pretty much a small and linear path, the only sense of "exploration" i got in ME2 was flying around in the galaxy map finding landable planets.

Last but not least, i'd rather do 20 great side quests like in FO3 and DAO rather than 40 crap side quests in ME1 and 10 shoot em up missions in ME2.

ME 1 exploration wasn't perfect.  Just better than ME 2's It could definitely use a graphics upgrade and maybe a few more unique things to locate (I musta spent about ten minutes trying to figure out what that dragon skull was for.  Hehe)  But personally, I'd rather have the option to go off-roading on a strange alien planet than just land, kill a dozen Blood Pack, and lift off again.

  I'd think the best exploration would be ME 1 exploration with a graphical facelift, more "goodies" to find,  and hills that were less steep.

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

ME 1 exploration wasn't perfect.  Just better than ME 2's It could definitely use a graphics upgrade and maybe a few more unique things to locate (I musta spent about ten minutes trying to figure out what that dragon skull was for.  Hehe)  But personally, I'd rather have the option to go off-roading on a strange alien planet than just land, kill a dozen Blood Pack, and lift off again.

But I think his point is that you can't really fail at what you never try. For better or worse, Mass Effect 2 did not feature exploration. Mass Effect gave us the terrain, but forgot to fill it with almost anything of interest which ultimately cripples the exploration aspect.

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

And it's a wonderful sensation the first time around. Unfortunately, when we are forced to do this many times ad infinitum, eventually that sensation fades away. The first time was incredible, the third time is alright, and by the tenth it's almost gone. The sensation eventually becomes replaced with another: boredom. This isn't the case with all fans, but for me that feeling of a 'big and ancient galaxy' is all but gone when I've passed through it for the tenth time (or more).
 
Just my sentiments.

But when you get down to it, how long does it really take to drive straight to the bunker/lab/mine/outpost if you ignore the terrain itself?  Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single (non-collection) mission that requires any more transportation along the surface than a 30 second drive to the entrance.  Not being impressed with the effects is understandable, but boredom?  It's easy enough to zip past the terrain if you're really not interested.

Out of curiosity, how would you try to instill the "vast and ancient" feeling in a way that holds people's attention playthrough after playthrough?

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

But I think his point is that you can't really fail at what you never try. For better or worse, Mass Effect 2 did not feature exploration. Mass Effect gave us the terrain, but forgot to fill it with almost anything of interest which ultimately cripples the exploration aspect.

Which goes to show, if you're going to experiment, do it with a new title, not in the middle of the series.  Bird in the hand and all.  In the case of ME 2, Bioware gets an A for effort, but C- in results.  At least in my book

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...
  Not being impressed with the effects is understandable, but boredom?  It's easy enough to zip past the terrain if you're really not interested.

Which is the problem; it all blends into the background. If I do more than two side quests back to back, the effect becomes something like this:

Galaxy Map-->Relay Screen-->Squad Selection-->Drive Mako-->Kill room of enemies-->return to Normandy-->talk to Admiral Hackett.

Rinse and repeat with very small variations in between. Whatever impact each individual side quest may have becomes lost in that generic formula.

Out of curiosity, how would you try to instill the "vast and ancient" feeling in a way that holds people's attention playthrough after playthrough?

Honestly? One element that would help would be sound. You'd be surprised how important little details like that can be in creating an immersive experience. Depending on what planet you are on, perhaps some planets/moons have sound while others do not. And on those planets where there is no sound, instead have the player listen to Shepard's breathing in the background.This helps differentiate each planet and creates more atmosphere. Perhaps on planets where there is little to no gravity, the game could reflect this in how Shepard + squad bounce up and down as they move.

As far as activities? Let us dig up actual Prothean ruins. Let us find new and interesting technology. Or instead like in Red Dead Redemption where you run across bandits, perhaps we could run across random groups of raiders while traversing the terrain, not simply thresher maws. A million different options exist and Mass Effect did not take advantage of any of them, except mineral gathering for all the good that does us. Instead of League of One Medallions, Matriarch Writings, and Turian Insignias, we could have had to collect another two dozen minerals and nothing would have changed beyond a paragraph of text.

I hope this doesn't come across as harsh. This is just my honest opinion on how to make enjoyable exploration.

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...
Which goes to show, if you're going to experiment, do it with a new title, not in the middle of the series.  Bird in the hand and all.  In the case of ME 2, Bioware gets an A for effort, but C- in results.  At least in my book

Damn, you're fast. Almost didn't see that post. >.<

Anyway, much like Mass Effect 2, I give Bioware an A for effort and a C- for results. In both cases, they tried. In both cases, they failed. Most did not approve of Bioware's effort in Mass Effect, so it was scrapped. I don't see why the middle of a trilogy is a bad place to start anew when the first attempt was reviled.

Modifié par Il Divo, 09 août 2010 - 04:27 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

I liked moving around in ME 1 better



However I prefer that ME 2 did not have load screens, or rather used what it did as a way to mask the load screens



If they can pull of ME 1's approach without Load Screens I would be razzle dazzled



I am referring to going to places on the galaxy map

[SithLordExarKun]

iakus wrote...



ME 1 exploration wasn't perfect.  Just better than ME 2's It could definitely use a graphics upgrade and maybe a few more unique things to locate (I musta spent about ten minutes trying to figure out what that dragon skull was for.  Hehe)  But personally, I'd rather have the option to go off-roading on a strange alien planet than just land, kill a dozen Blood Pack, and lift off again.

  I'd think the best exploration would be ME 1 exploration with a graphical facelift, more "goodies" to find,  and hills that were less steep.

ME1's "exploration" was far from even being decent in my opinion for the reasons i already have stated why. Even overlord's driving mission felt more like a real exploration with a world of its own than simply landing on the another planet with a different skybox with the same exact objective: get into the bunker and "pew pew pew".

There is as much repetition in ME1 as there was in ME2.

Personally i don't think your suggestion would work, it would simply be the same barren(and boring)planet with better graphics and repeat the trash that is "exploration" in ME1.

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

Out of curiosity, how would you try to instill the "vast and ancient" feeling in a way that holds people's attention playthrough after playthrough?

Honestly? One element that would help would be sound. You'd be surprised how important little details like that can be in creating an immersive experience. Depending on what planet you are on, perhaps some planets/moons have sound while others do not. And on those planets where there is no sound, instead have the player listen to Shepard's breathing in the background.This helps differentiate each planet and creates more atmosphere. Perhaps on planets where there is little to no gravity, the game could reflect this in how Shepard + squad bounce up and down as they move.

As far as activities? Let us dig up actual Prothean ruins. Let us find new and interesting technology. Or instead like in Red Dead Redemption where you run across bandits, perhaps we could run across random groups of raiders while traversing the terrain, not simply thresher maws. A million different options exist and Mass Effect did not take advantage of any of them, except mineral gathering for all the good that does us. Instead of League of One Medallions, Matriarch Writings, and Turian Insignias, we could have had to collect another two dozen minerals and nothing would have changed beyond a paragraph of text.

I hope this doesn't come across as harsh. This is just my honest opinion on how to make enjoyable exploration.

Those are actually good ideas.  You make a very good point with the effects of sound.  The Prothean ruins idea was actually what I though ME 2 would have before finding out about the Collector thing.

That being said, your suggestions sound more like ideas to touch up ME 1 exploration (with good ideas, I repeat) than the exploration options that ME 2 had.

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Those are actually good ideas.  You make a very good point with the effects of sound.  The Prothean ruins idea was actually what I though ME 2 would have before finding out about the Collector thing.

Much appreciated. Even if I sound confrontational, I do have the highest respect for your opinion (just to be clear).

I understand that those two ideas I mentioned would not necessarily create 'more things' to do, but they go alot farther in producing what 'space' feels like. Whenever I entered a firefight on a moon, I always found myself rolling my eyes unfortunately.

That being said, your suggestions sound more like ideas to touch up ME 1 exploration (with good ideas, I repeat) than the exploration options that ME 2 had.

Perhaps. I would like to see Bioware, once ME3 is done, go back and just revise the entire trilogy and release it as an 'ultimate set' and perhaps finish whatever ideas they may have had (not that this is one of them).

As a fan of Firefly/2001 Space Odyssey, the effect of no sound in space has become much more enjoyable for me . Mass Effect 2's intro is what gave me the idea in the first place. The scene (where Shepard is walking) is far more powerful than it ever could be with sound. I wish the Mass Effect franchise took more advantage of that, though I do realize they deserve artistic license. I however would have enjoyed exploring Mass Effect's side quests far more if the experience was a bit more detailed.

Modifié par Il Divo, 09 août 2010 - 04:40 .

[Iakus]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

 ME1's "exploration" was far from even being decent in my opinion for the reasons i already have stated why. Even overlord's driving mission felt more like a real exploration with a world of its own than simply landing on the another planet with a different skybox with the same exact objective: get into the bunker and "pew pew pew".

There is as much repetition in ME1 as there was in ME2.

Personally i don't think your suggestion would work, it would simply be the same barren(and boring)planet with better graphics and repeat the trash that is "exploration" in ME1.

As far as suggestions go, what do you think?  Is ME 2's "explore the area around the shuttle? really the way to go? Beautiful backgrounds, I'll give you that, but how is it any different than "get into the bunker and "pew pew pew?"  Is there another method you'd endorse? (I do not have Overlord so I can't comment on its exploration capability)

Would ME 1 exploration be better if there were more creatures to encounter?  Not just thresher maws, but other stuff.  Other species of hostile wildlife?  Pirate bases you don't have a quest for, but are still there?  Terrain hazards (like Haestrum's sun?) 

I guess the question is, what's "fun exploration" for you?

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

iakus wrote...

Those are actually good ideas.  You make a very good point with the effects of sound.  The Prothean ruins idea was actually what I though ME 2 would have before finding out about the Collector thing.

Much appreciated. Even if I sound confrontational, I do have the highest respect for your opinion (just to be clear).

I understand that those two ideas I mentioned would not necessarily create 'more things' to do, but they go alot farther in producing what 'space' feels like. Whenever I entered a firefight on a moon, I always found myself rolling my eyes unfortunately.

Believe me, compared to certain other ME 2 "purists" you are the epitome of reason

I'm not too concerned about "things to do" as far as exploration goes.  To me exploration is doing something. It's finding point C between Points A and B.  It's sensation and immersion, not finding more stuff to kill.  ME 1's was flawed, ME 2's was nonexistant

[danimalism]

overlord's hub world was cool. It wasn't some empty rock, it was detailed and lush and awesome. More exploration like that would be fine.



a return to ME1's unc planets would not be fine though.