1227 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Btw, another example of what can be done with the Toolset...

Warden's Fall, machinima mini-series:

it got quite a few praises even from BioWare devs. go figure.

[Kaiser Shepard]

slimgrin wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

So let me get this straight: according to you guys, what made Dragon Age: Origins great weren't the marvelous characters, the country of Ferelden, the epic storyline or the classic combat system... but the abilities to fix a few small bugs yourselves, create a custom piece of equipment or two, mod your characters' appearances and a toolset apparently that difficult to work with that there hasn't been something worth calling a module yet?

If so, consider me at a loss for words.

You have to understand something. PC gamers are used to having so many more options than console gamers. Options for controls, and for controllers. Options for getting involved and creating their own content. Options for higher graphical settings and larger, more intensive games. Thats the pc gaming heritage.

When it comes down to it, games made specifically for pc are a different beast altogether than console games. Maybe you don't game on the pc, or are unfamiliar with all this. But you're attempts at trivializing an amazing gaming platform are pretty lame.

So I guess what I'm saying is: troll elsewhere.

Wait, I am not only trivializing but trolling as well? I'm pretty sure it's you guys that are doing the former: for the lack of a better word, you are "whining" over the exclusion of a mere toolset. Like Onyx said, you already got one last year, and based on comments directed at the new art style and combat system I get the impression that most of you wouldn't care whether or not the game got a toolset. Or am I mistaken?

In any case, I know most of you will get the game at launch regardless.

tmp7704 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

So let me get this straight: according to you guys, what made Dragon Age: Origins great weren't the marvelous characters, the country of Ferelden, the epic storyline or the classic combat system... but the abilities to fix a few small bugs yourselves, create a custom piece of equipment or two, mod your characters' appearances and a toolset apparently that difficult to work with that there hasn't been something worth calling a module yet?

If so, consider me at a loss for words.

Not, it's all the factors you list, combined. Now, the act of taking away two of these factors ("the classic combat system" and ability to tailor the game to one's individual tastes) potentially makes the resulting product a less compelling game for some. I don't think the concept is really as difficult to graps as you try to make it.

Incidentally, since you have confessed just few pages earlier you had no idea about what kinds of mods are out there whatsoever, that statement about no work released so far being worth calling a module... it comes across very presumptuous.

Hmm, you make a much better case. As a former Nintendo fan, I know all too well what you're getting at. I may not agree with what you say, but I see how you might feel betrayed by the company you once loved. I won't defend your right to say it to the death, though.

As for that last part, I based that upon reactions on my post. Please also not the "yet".

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Tell me this is just a cruel joke from Bioware?

one in french

It's always the Orlesians, isn't it?

[zahra]

cmessaz wrote...

Estel78 wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Estel78 wrote...

I didn't notice a lot of bugs. I don't care for mods that change item stats or anything that goes beyond cosmetics so no toolset is no big loss for me.

You haven't? So Alistair has never referred to himself as king for you when he isn't, and his pre-romance kiss scene isn't broken? Among many other things?

No.

Well you must have a magical copy because it is impossible. Alistair will always refer to himself as king when he's not in vanilla.

Lol agreed.

@Estel - With all due respect, sorry, but as a person who owns both console + PC version of the game, I believe that you are either misrepresenting facts or you skipped over that dialog or you always made Alistair king. The" Alistair referring to him as King even when he isn't made one" bug is definitely there on consoles 100 percent of the time. Consoles also don't get to see Anora doing the rallying speech + a lot of dialog (+ a cutscene arriving from the Wilds after killing Flemeth) + quite a whole lot more. If you do have a console copy that does all this, I would say that you have the only perfect console copy of DA and you should sell it on ebay and make a killing.

[Estel78]

shedevil3001 wrote...

for alot of people its replayability that matters and once you've played it you want new and different when dlc is released not all like them so they make mods to spice up their game removing toolset makes some lose intrest in the replay aspect 

There's already a lot of replayability in Bioware games, more than in almost any other games.

If i have seen everything there is to see i get me a new game. Then again, i don't have such a... how should i say it, narrow taste and enjoy many different genres so i have quite a lot to play.

[Gaxhung]

Didn't we see the game in top down view on the dev video featured on Game Informer?

[Morroian]

FedericoV wrote...

I know that tactics could be useful if you spend a lot of time to tweak them. My point is that a party pased tactical game is all about control. Forcing tactics wich remove situational control from the player or hectic pausing is an example of bad game design and at the end it's stupid. Imho, a party based/tactical/pause&play combat with isometric view and lot of power to use is not suited for fast gameplay and need a slower tempo, just like BG/AD&D. If you want an action/rush feel, there are better options.

Well you still do have control via pausing even if some battles were hectic. I can play the game on nightmare mode with an enjoyable level of challenge using the tactics extensively and I'm someone who usually doesn't play games above normal difficulty.

[cmessaz]

Lord_Saulot wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Tell me this is just a cruel joke from Bioware?

I want to get my hopes up, I really do. But I don't think the lack of toolset is a joke, I would place money on it.

Lack of toolset is quite plausible, especially since launching and supporting a tool set requires extra work on Bioware's behalf.  On the other hand, "no overhead view" is what some have doubts about, since it seemingly contradicts the previous claim that PC combat would be about the same.  I really hope the latter is not changed from the first game.

At the risk of being called "ridiculous", this info may just make me refuse to buy DA2. Is it exclusively because of today's info? No, absolutely not. But so far, 90 percent of what I've heard about it is disappointing. I will continue to follow it, as DA:O is one of my favorite all time games. But so far, I've gone from on the fence, to not wanting. This info was just the one that pushed me over the edge.

[Nerevar-as]

Estel78 wrote...

Vandrayke wrote...

shedevil3001 wrote...

its not really so hard to understand that many would be upset by no toolset alot of hard work goes into mods and alot of time and effort to

I get that.  I don't get the, "there's no point in even playing this game," mentality, though.  Like a game cannot possibly be good unless it meets X prerequisites.  

exactly

It´s not that won´t be good, but that it won´t be the game I want to play. Radical example as it was a genre shift, maybe Dreamfall is a good game, but doesn´t feel like a sequel to The Longest Journey. Here I don´t want DA gameplay to feel too different, but so far it seems to be going that way. And the amount of bugs the patches do not cover is big. Awakening has the epilogues not matching the codex, Anora "mourning" Alistair who is standing a meter away,....

[Kaiser Shepard]

tmp7704 wrote...



Btw, another example of what can be done with the Toolset...



Warden's Fall, machinima mini-series:



it got quite a few praises even from BioWare devs. go figure.

Fair enough, even I enjoyed that. Still, it's no playable module.

[zahra]

cmessaz wrote...

Having personally fixed a crap load of bugs in one particular character's dialogue, I can definitely say yes, many many good things were produced with the DA toolset.

I did a whole new playthrough just to experience cmessaz's mods (and will probably do another one, when she updates it again).

Playthroughs on my PS3 : 3

Playthroughs on my pc: A disgustingly large amount, due to mods fixing bugs, adding new experiences and super cool looking armor. 

[aragfore03]

The Console version of Dragon Age sold better than PC? Really? Heh, didn't expect that one.

[Skal JJ]

Please, include Gears of War cover style for crossbow too.

[JamieCOTC]

cmessaz wrote...

Lord_Saulot wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Tell me this is just a cruel joke from Bioware?

I want to get my hopes up, I really do. But I don't think the lack of toolset is a joke, I would place money on it.

Lack of toolset is quite plausible, especially since launching and supporting a tool set requires extra work on Bioware's behalf.  On the other hand, "no overhead view" is what some have doubts about, since it seemingly contradicts the previous claim that PC combat would be about the same.  I really hope the latter is not changed from the first game.

At the risk of being called "ridiculous", this info may just make me refuse to buy DA2. Is it exclusively because of today's info? No, absolutely not. But so far, 90 percent of what I've heard about it is disappointing. I will continue to follow it, as DA:O is one of my favorite all time games. But so far, I've gone from on the fence, to not wanting. This info was just the one that pushed me over the edge.

Call me  ridiculous too.

[Vandrayke]

slimgrin wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

So let me get this straight: according to you guys, what made Dragon Age: Origins great weren't the marvelous characters, the country of Ferelden, the epic storyline or the classic combat system... but the abilities to fix a few small bugs yourselves, create a custom piece of equipment or two, mod your characters' appearances and a toolset apparently that difficult to work with that there hasn't been something worth calling a module yet?

If so, consider me at a loss for words.

And the isometric camera, yeah.

This is an sentiment that gets thrown around a lot, the "who cares about feature X, they should spend that time working on feature Y instead" argument, and I don't really like it. All of these features contribute to the whole of the game. You could use the same argument to say we should cut everything from the game that isn't as important as the story, and then what do you have? A book. Nothing wrong with books, but I'm not asking for a book, I'm asking for a game. Or you could make that argument to say it should focus entirely on combat awesomeness, and then it would just be endless plotless combat. Which some people might enjoy, I don't know.

My point is that all of these arguments are inherently subjective and yet people throw them out like theirs are Truth. The only thing BioWare should focus on is whatever they want to focus on, ultimately. Beyond that, any one person's opinion of what they should focus on is no more valid than anyone else's. My opinion is that their focus should include isometric view and a toolset, and it would be worse without those features.

^ Well put.

For sure.  I guess that I always think more about what the whole package feels like when it's done, though, than I do about specific elements here and there... but obsessing over specific elements here and there is ultimately what yields a quality "whole package" at the end, anyways.  So I guess there has to be some give/take with this kind of thing.  

[Vandrayke]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Estel78 wrote...

Vandrayke wrote...

shedevil3001 wrote...

its not really so hard to understand that many would be upset by no toolset alot of hard work goes into mods and alot of time and effort to

I get that.  I don't get the, "there's no point in even playing this game," mentality, though.  Like a game cannot possibly be good unless it meets X prerequisites.  

exactly

It´s not that won´t be good, but that it won´t be the game I want to play. Radical example as it was a genre shift, maybe Dreamfall is a good game, but doesn´t feel like a sequel to The Longest Journey. Here I don´t want DA gameplay to feel too different, but so far it seems to be going that way. And the amount of bugs the patches do not cover is big. Awakening has the epilogues not matching the codex, Anora "mourning" Alistair who is standing a meter away,....

I LOVED Dreamfall I want another one! 

[AmstradHero]

tmp7704 wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

So the mods that garner the most interest are those that make cosmetic changes to the game? Sounds like all people care about is pretty graphics and having attractive characters...

And people wonder why there won't be a DA2 toolset.

Considering the "pretty graphics" appear extremely important even to BioWare devs who are taking time to re-design the visuals of their game from the grounds up for DA2, in direct response to complaints DAO was lacking in this regard... how exactly do you arrive to such conclusion?

Sorry, that possibly came off a little harsher than I intended. Graphics have to be a focus of games. I'm not surprised given the complaints about DAO's improvements in the graphics arena.

Based on BioWare's initial focus after the release of the toolset, they seemed to expect more quest mods, but they have proven difficult for people to make thus far. I have nothing against cosmetic mods, and I appreciate the effort their creators go to - I know modelling is not easy, and that having more a more attractive game is a big thing for a lot of people. (No, I'm not saying I don't care about graphics at all, I do like "pretty graphics" too) But I do feel that quest mods have been neglected by the community at large at their expense.

[PanosSmirnakos]

tmp7704 wrote...

Btw, another example of what can be done with the Toolset...

Warden's Fall, machinima mini-series:

it got quite a few praises even from BioWare devs. go figure.

Heh, this is a great example to demonstrate the power of the toolset and the abilities of some modders. And how cut scenes in the original vanilla game should be...

[Estel78]

epoch_ wrote...

Estel78 wrote...

sami jo wrote...

The game itself is horribly bugged.

Again, DAO was horribly buggy? I didn't notice that.

Then you're blind because you certainly don't have a special non buggy copy of the game.

Or maybe i have a different viewpoint of what "horribly buggy" is.

[DahliaLynn]

Gaxhung wrote...

Didn't we see the game in top down view on the dev video featured on Game Informer?

Hmmm you mean here? at 03:31?

www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php

Modifié par DahliaLynn, 08 août 2010 - 01:18 .

[ecbricco]

well if this is true my excitement for this game went from a 8 to a 5 mainly cause of the toolset but the only 3rd person view point is a disappointment as well i hope bioware unconfirms this rumor or says something about it 1 way or another or changes theyre mind on it lol *crosses fingers*

[Nerevar-as]

Vandrayke wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Estel78 wrote...

Vandrayke wrote...

shedevil3001 wrote...

its not really so hard to understand that many would be upset by no toolset alot of hard work goes into mods and alot of time and effort to

I get that.  I don't get the, "there's no point in even playing this game," mentality, though.  Like a game cannot possibly be good unless it meets X prerequisites.  

exactly

It´s not that won´t be good, but that it won´t be the game I want to play. Radical example as it was a genre shift, maybe Dreamfall is a good game, but doesn´t feel like a sequel to The Longest Journey. Here I don´t want DA gameplay to feel too different, but so far it seems to be going that way. And the amount of bugs the patches do not cover is big. Awakening has the epilogues not matching the codex, Anora "mourning" Alistair who is standing a meter away,....

I LOVED Dreamfall I want another one! 

Considering the ending it doesn´t surprise me.

[JamieCOTC]

Vandrayke wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

Estel78 wrote...

Vandrayke wrote...

shedevil3001 wrote...

its not really so hard to understand that many would be upset by no toolset alot of hard work goes into mods and alot of time and effort to

I get that.  I don't get the, "there's no point in even playing this game," mentality, though.  Like a game cannot possibly be good unless it meets X prerequisites.  

exactly

It´s not that won´t be good, but that it won´t be the game I want to play. Radical example as it was a genre shift, maybe Dreamfall is a good game, but doesn´t feel like a sequel to The Longest Journey. Here I don´t want DA gameplay to feel too different, but so far it seems to be going that way. And the amount of bugs the patches do not cover is big. Awakening has the epilogues not matching the codex, Anora "mourning" Alistair who is standing a meter away,....

I LOVED Dreamfall I want another one! 

Dreamfall was great!  I wish they would continue it too. 

[Drizzt ORierdan]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Btw, another example of what can be done with the Toolset...

Warden's Fall, machinima mini-series:

it got quite a few praises even from BioWare devs. go figure.

Fair enough, even I enjoyed that. Still, it's no playable module.

You should check then "Emmisary" (which I talked about in a post 10 pages away) and
"Hilltop under Siege"; both great.  Alley of Murders is good too.

Modifié par Drizzt ORierdan, 08 août 2010 - 01:34 .

[Estel78]

Vandrayke wrote...

As an aside, I actually hate DLC because after I'm done playing a game, I don't want to pick it up again just to play 45 minutes of new crap or to put on different armor.  I have a feeling that DLC will evolve significantly with time.  

I'm the same. Well, i don't "hate" DLC, i just don't care for it. Most of the time i've already finished the game multiple times and moved on by the time a DLC comes out.