1227 réponses à ce sujet

[FlamenDialis]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Hey folks,

Victor managed to hunt me down, and I wanted to clear up a few things with regards to what I'm seeing as the two major concerns on this thread.

First off, let's talk about the toolset issue. Obviously in this community there's going to be some concern that we wouldn't release a toolset, so let me clear the air a little: The tools we're using to make Dragon Age 2 are very, very close to the tools you guys have used to make your mods for DA:O. They're not identical, as we've made a few in-house improvements, but they're almost identical. As such, there isn't a new toolset to release, per se.

While we won't be releasing a toolset update in tandem with Dragon Age 2, we ARE investigating what it would take to update the community toolset to match ours, along with providing DA2 content in the future.

As to the subject of tactical view, I can confirm that we will not be doing a tactical view on consoles, though we are looking into some expanded party control that I think will make console players quite happy.

On the PC, however, we are still working with the camera to keep the key elements of the tactical experience there. I was actually playtesting some new camera code when Victor found me, in fact, so I can give you the latest news on that front.

While we likely won't pull as far up as we did in DA:O, I have always felt that the key to tactical play was actually freeing your camera from the character you're controlling to issue precise orders, which is what we're tuning now. So, this means you can still maneuver the camera around the battlefield and issue orders from a remote location, just as you could in Origins.

As you can probably tell from my phrasing, all of this is a bit in-flux right now, so things may change between now and ship, but I wanted to update you guys on the current direction of things.

Mike..

Eh?

What I heard was, "No toolset [blah, blah, blah] You will not be able to pull the camera back as far in DA2 as you did in DA:O [blah, blah, blah] I believe that teh realz essential aspect of DA tactical gameplay is freeing the camera."

Well color me less than reassured. Do you have some screenshots that will help me understand you better, because what I can gather from your words is that while I will not be stuck staring at my pc's keister in da2, you believe that being able to choose a keister-of-choice is the essential element of the tactical experience. As an old school tabletop war gamer and pnp rpg fan, your words ring hollow with me. As an indicidual who has coached American rules football, I find your pov baffling. As a fan of the pc version of da:o I cannot help but wonder if bioware has forgotten the roots of squad-based tactical combat crpgs, because your view of "essential" is different than mine, and it is different than what was expressed by the original DA developers when they described why DA would be the spiritual successor to BG2.

Parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus.

Thank you for the feedback, but I am hardly more enlightend now than I was when I read the French article.

[joriandrake]

dark-lauron wrote...

Victor Wachter wrote...
Mike's a new dad, so it's easy to find him at home right now. It'll be harder around the time of DA3 and beyond when the kid wants to go outside.

Uh-huh, so we can officially say that Dragon Age 3 is announced... even before the release of the second one

You're right

[Dileos]

dark-lauron wrote...

Victor Wachter wrote...
Mike's a new dad, so it's easy to find him at home right now. It'll be harder around the time of DA3 and beyond when the kid wants to go outside.

Uh-huh, so we can officially say that Dragon Age 3 is announced... even before the release of the second one

Dragon Age III confirmed to have no toolset, a spastic talking parrot, PC being voiced by Adam Sandler and Lady GaGa at the same time for both genders, a complete removal of dwarves and elves, the addition of gnomes, no party members, no camera what so ever, and BioWare will kill a small furry animal for every copy that is sold.

[Sarkus]

FlamenDialis wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Hey folks,

Victor managed to hunt me down, and I wanted to clear up a few things with regards to what I'm seeing as the two major concerns on this thread.

First off, let's talk about the toolset issue. Obviously in this community there's going to be some concern that we wouldn't release a toolset, so let me clear the air a little: The tools we're using to make Dragon Age 2 are very, very close to the tools you guys have used to make your mods for DA:O. They're not identical, as we've made a few in-house improvements, but they're almost identical. As such, there isn't a new toolset to release, per se.

While we won't be releasing a toolset update in tandem with Dragon Age 2, we ARE investigating what it would take to update the community toolset to match ours, along with providing DA2 content in the future.

As to the subject of tactical view, I can confirm that we will not be doing a tactical view on consoles, though we are looking into some expanded party control that I think will make console players quite happy.

On the PC, however, we are still working with the camera to keep the key elements of the tactical experience there. I was actually playtesting some new camera code when Victor found me, in fact, so I can give you the latest news on that front.

While we likely won't pull as far up as we did in DA:O, I have always felt that the key to tactical play was actually freeing your camera from the character you're controlling to issue precise orders, which is what we're tuning now. So, this means you can still maneuver the camera around the battlefield and issue orders from a remote location, just as you could in Origins.

As you can probably tell from my phrasing, all of this is a bit in-flux right now, so things may change between now and ship, but I wanted to update you guys on the current direction of things.

Mike..

Eh?

What I heard was, "No toolset [blah, blah, blah] You will not be able to pull the camera back as far in DA2 as you did in DA:O [blah, blah, blah] I believe that teh realz essential aspect of DA tactical gameplay is freeing the camera."

Well color me less than reassured. Do you have some screenshots that will help me understand you better, because what I can gather from your words is that while I will not be stuck staring at my pc's keister in da2, you believe that being able to choose a keister-of-choice is the essential element of the tactical experience. As an old school tabletop war gamer and pnp rpg fan, your words ring hollow with me. As an indicidual who has coached American rules football, I find your pov baffling. As a fan of the pc version of da:o I cannot help but wonder if bioware has forgotten the roots of squad-based tactical combat crpgs, because your view of "essential" is different than mine, and it is different than what was expressed by the original DA developers when they described why DA would be the spiritual successor to BG2.

Parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus.

Thank you for the feedback, but I am hardly more enlightend now than I was when I read the French article.

You seem to misinterpreting or missing what he is saying.  What part of  "freeing the camera from the character" and "still maneuver the camera around the battlefield" make you think all he is promising is moving a locked camera from character to character?  Clearly the point is that you will still be able to move the camera wherever you want, you just probably won't be able to pull the camera back as far as you could in Dragon Age. 

That all being said, I am rather annoyed that Bioware allowed the GI article to come out and insinuate that the PC version wasn't changing much only to now admit that they are playing around with core aspects of what supposedly wasn't changing.  It smells a bit, even if I do think in the end I will be fine with it.  But the reality is that Dragon Age is continuing as a console series with a PC version, meaning Bioware has officially abandoned the PC as a primary market.  You can't claim to be giving the PC comparable love when it is now what has to adapt to what works best for the consoles.

[A. Sayalero]

This is disgusting.

Bioware: marry a damn console, we have CD Projekt.

[Dileos]

A. Sayalero wrote...

This is disgusting.
Bioware: marry a damn console, we have CD Projekt.

uh....what?

[A. Sayalero]

Dileos wrote...

A. Sayalero wrote...

This is disgusting.
Bioware: marry a damn console, we have CD Projekt.

uh....what?

If Bioware despises the PC , CD Projekt does not.

[Dileos]

A. Sayalero wrote...

 Bioware despises the PC , CD Projekt does not.

You do realize that out of all the games made by BioWare only 5 of them were for consoles right?

And only 3 of them were actually good.

Modifié par Dileos, 08 août 2010 - 08:29 .

[A. Sayalero]

Dileos wrote...

A. Sayalero wrote...

 Bioware despises the PC , CD Projekt does not.

You do realize that out of all the games made by BioWare only 5 of them were for consoles right?

And only 3 of them were actually good.

"Now, the game mainly sold on console, so we're going the way of the audience"


Is that respect for the PC?

[GuaroDerp]

So basically, they explained the reason a new toolset isn't coming out. And they also explain that besides this, they are looking into updating the old one.



Not only that, but they say that the camera will not change that much, except maybe you won't be able to go that far up. AND that this is STILL SUBJECT TO CHANGE.



You will have to forgive me, but goddamn you people are overreacting / just plain dumb.

[Sarkus]

Dileos wrote...

A. Sayalero wrote...

 Bioware despises the PC , CD Projekt does not.

You do realize that out of all the games made by BioWare only 5 of them were for consoles right?

And only 3 of them were actually good.

Bioware's last five RPGs:

Primarily designed with the console market in mind: Knights of the Old Republic, Jade Empire, Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2.

Primarily designed with the PC market in mind: Dragon Age

And where is Dragon Age 2 going to fit?  Bioware is primarily a console RPG developer now. 

[Dileos]

A. Sayalero wrote...
"Now, the game mainly sold on console, so we're going the way of the audience"


Is that respect for the PC?

It certainly isn't disrespect, if anything its a smart idea from a marketing perspective.

The original Dragon Age was targeted at PC gamers, and it was eaten up by the console market even though the controls and interface were clunky as hell.

GuaroDerp wrote...

You will have to forgive me, but goddamn you people are overreacting / just plain dumb.

^ This.

Modifié par Dileos, 08 août 2010 - 08:37 .

[Tyrael02]

A. Sayalero wrote...

Dileos wrote...

A. Sayalero wrote...

 Bioware despises the PC , CD Projekt does not.

You do realize that out of all the games made by BioWare only 5 of them were for consoles right?

And only 3 of them were actually good.

"Now, the game mainly sold on console, so we're going the way of the audience"


Is that respect for the PC?

hahaha

[A. Sayalero]

Dileos wrote...

A. Sayalero wrote...
"Now, the game mainly sold on console, so we're going the way of the audience"


Is that respect for the PC?

It certainly isn't disrespect, if anything its a smart idea from a marketing perspective.

The original Dragon Age was targeted at PC gamers, and it was eaten up by the console market even though the controls and interface were clunky as hell.

Neglect the PC is always a bad idea long term. If DAO is a PC game and has sold very well,
why we now offer a crappy port?

Mod Edit: Removed profanity.

Modifié par Seagloom, 08 août 2010 - 12:08 .

[FlamenDialis]

Sarkus wrote...

FlamenDialis wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Hey folks,

Victor managed to hunt me down, and I wanted to clear up a few things with regards to what I'm seeing as the two major concerns on this thread.

First off, let's talk about the toolset issue. Obviously in this community there's going to be some concern that we wouldn't release a toolset, so let me clear the air a little: The tools we're using to make Dragon Age 2 are very, very close to the tools you guys have used to make your mods for DA:O. They're not identical, as we've made a few in-house improvements, but they're almost identical. As such, there isn't a new toolset to release, per se.

While we won't be releasing a toolset update in tandem with Dragon Age 2, we ARE investigating what it would take to update the community toolset to match ours, along with providing DA2 content in the future.

As to the subject of tactical view, I can confirm that we will not be doing a tactical view on consoles, though we are looking into some expanded party control that I think will make console players quite happy.

On the PC, however, we are still working with the camera to keep the key elements of the tactical experience there. I was actually playtesting some new camera code when Victor found me, in fact, so I can give you the latest news on that front.

While we likely won't pull as far up as we did in DA:O, I have always felt that the key to tactical play was actually freeing your camera from the character you're controlling to issue precise orders, which is what we're tuning now. So, this means you can still maneuver the camera around the battlefield and issue orders from a remote location, just as you could in Origins.

As you can probably tell from my phrasing, all of this is a bit in-flux right now, so things may change between now and ship, but I wanted to update you guys on the current direction of things.

Mike..

Eh?

What I heard was, "No toolset [blah, blah, blah] You will not be able to pull the camera back as far in DA2 as you did in DA:O [blah, blah, blah] I believe that teh realz essential aspect of DA tactical gameplay is freeing the camera."

Well color me less than reassured. Do you have some screenshots that will help me understand you better, because what I can gather from your words is that while I will not be stuck staring at my pc's keister in da2, you believe that being able to choose a keister-of-choice is the essential element of the tactical experience. As an old school tabletop war gamer and pnp rpg fan, your words ring hollow with me. As an indicidual who has coached American rules football, I find your pov baffling. As a fan of the pc version of da:o I cannot help but wonder if bioware has forgotten the roots of squad-based tactical combat crpgs, because your view of "essential" is different than mine, and it is different than what was expressed by the original DA developers when they described why DA would be the spiritual successor to BG2.

Parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus.

Thank you for the feedback, but I am hardly more enlightend now than I was when I read the French article.

You seem to misinterpreting or missing what he is saying.  What part of  "freeing the camera from the character" and "still maneuver the camera around the battlefield" make you think all he is promising is moving a locked camera from character to character?  Clearly the point is that you will still be able to move the camera wherever you want, you just probably won't be able to pull the camera back as far as you could in Dragon Age. 

That all being said, I am rather annoyed that Bioware allowed the GI article to come out and insinuate that the PC version wasn't changing much only to now admit that they are playing around with core aspects of what supposedly wasn't changing.  It smells a bit, even if I do think in the end I will be fine with it.  But the reality is that Dragon Age is continuing as a console series with a PC version, meaning Bioware has officially abandoned the PC as a primary market.  You can't claim to be giving the PC comparable love when it is now what has to adapt to what works best for the consoles.

You are also making some assumptions. I don't believe that the camera will be locked onto characters, but I recognize that with a camera stuck at arse-to-shoulder level I will be stuck staring at character arse much as I do in bioware's other console exploits, such as mass effect, je, and kotor. I do not know how far the camera can be pulled back from my character. It appears that Mike believes that "freeing" the camera, without being able to pull it back, is meeting what is essential to achieve a tatical experience. Sorry, but being stuck at keister or shoulder level is NOT my notion of maintaining a tactical experience. Yes, according to Mike I will be able to peer at shrubbery as well as character fundaments, but I will be stuck at a height that makes tactical gameplay far less satisfying.

"you just probably won't be able to pull the camera back..."

Perhaps you are getting sucked in by Mike's view of what is and is not essential. This is not a "just probably" bit of tactical minutiae. The original DA developers didn't see the camera being locked in tight as "just probably" fare and neither do I.

[Dileos]

A. Sayalero wrote...



Neglect the PC is always a bad idea long term. If DAO is a PC game and has sold very well,
why we now offer a ****ty port?

Once again, way to make blatantly stupid assumptions.  If a PC game sold well on consoles, then it makes perfect sense to target the console audience. And there is NO concrete proof that this game is a console port. Its been stated by BioWare numerous times that the PC and console version will play very differently in order to take advantage of each platforms strengths.

People need to learn some reading comprehension before jumpiing aboard the doomsday bandwagon.

Modifié par Dileos, 08 août 2010 - 08:47 .

[A. Sayalero]

Dileos wrote...

A. Sayalero wrote...



Neglect the PC is always a bad idea long term. If DAO is a PC game and has sold very well,
why we now offer a ****ty port?

Once again, way to make blatantly stupid assumptions.  If a PC game sold well on consoles, then it makes perfect sense to target the console audience. And there is NO concrete proof that this game is a console port. Its been stated by BioWare numerous times that the PC and console version will play very differently in order to take advantage of each platforms strengths.

People need to learn some reading comprehension before jumpiing aboard the doomsday bandwagon.

If a PC game sold well on PC, then it makes perfect sense to target the PC audience. And there is concrete proof that this game is a console port. Its been stated by Bioware numerous times that the PC version is more and more like the console.

People need to learn something about the PC RPG before blindly worship Bioware.

[Sarkus]

FlamenDialis wrote...
You are also making some assumptions. I don't believe that the camera will be locked onto characters, but I recognize that with a camera stuck at arse-to-shoulder level I will be stuck staring at character arse much as I do in bioware's other console exploits, such as mass effect, je, and kotor. I do not know how far the camera can be pulled back from my character. It appears that Mike believes that "freeing" the camera, without being able to pull it back, is meeting what is essential to achieve a tatical experience. Sorry, but being stuck at keister or shoulder level is NOT my notion of maintaining a tactical experience. Yes, according to Mike I will be able to peer at shrubbery as well as character fundaments, but I will be stuck at a height that makes tactical gameplay far less satisfying.

"you just probably won't be able to pull the camera back..."

Perhaps you are getting sucked in by Mike's view of what is and is not essential. This is not a "just probably" bit of tactical minutiae. The original DA developers didn't see the camera being locked in tight as "just probably" fare and neither do I.

This isn't about assumptions, its about who is taking an optimistic approach to what Mr. Laidlaw said and who is taking a negative approach.  While I enjoyed the potential of the tactical camera in DAO, I'd be lying if I said I used it all that much.  Maybe it's because every other Bioware RPG since KOTOR hasn't had it or maybe it's because almost no other RPG being made anymore uses that kind of camera, but I just don't require being able to pull back that far to feel it's tactical.  So I'm willing to give the developers the benefit of the doubt about the issue and assume that what they come up with will still provide a resonable amount of tactical control.  Beyond that, I can't be any more precise about what we are going to see because Mr. Laidlaw wasn't any more precise. 

And I don't know what you are talking about when you say "the original DA developers."  Mr. Laidlaw was the lead designer on DAO, just like he is on DA2.  Almost all the other developers seem to be returning in the same roles.  This is not a scenario where a different team of individuals is involved.  Either you trust the people who gave you the first game to give you something this time that maintains the core important aspects of the title you claim to have enjoyed or you don't.

[FlamenDialis]

GuaroDerp wrote...

So basically, they explained the reason a new toolset isn't coming out. And they also explain that besides this, they are looking into updating the old one.

Not only that, but they say that the camera will not change that much, except maybe you won't be able to go that far up. AND that this is STILL SUBJECT TO CHANGE.

You will have to forgive me, but goddamn you people are overreacting / just plain dumb.

"While we likely won't pull as far up as we did in DA:O..."

I have no idea what that means from a practical pov. It can mean that the degree to which we can pull back the camera is infintesimal. insofar as the camera is concerned, Mike only claimed that he was attempting to keep the "key elements" of the tactical experience, and the key stuff for him was free movemnt as opposed to being able to get a broader and more complete view of the battle field.

Oh, and "subject to change" obviously means that we won't get a changes worse than what Mike currently describes. No doubt we should all take a wait and see approach, because with a game that is being released q1 2011, we have loads of time before anything becomes set in stone. You somehow how see boilerplate "covering-my-arse" language as reassuring.

I won't be so gauche as to call you dumb, but...

[A. Sayalero]

Sarkus wrote...

FlamenDialis wrote...
You are also making some assumptions. I don't believe that the camera will be locked onto characters, but I recognize that with a camera stuck at arse-to-shoulder level I will be stuck staring at character arse much as I do in bioware's other console exploits, such as mass effect, je, and kotor. I do not know how far the camera can be pulled back from my character. It appears that Mike believes that "freeing" the camera, without being able to pull it back, is meeting what is essential to achieve a tatical experience. Sorry, but being stuck at keister or shoulder level is NOT my notion of maintaining a tactical experience. Yes, according to Mike I will be able to peer at shrubbery as well as character fundaments, but I will be stuck at a height that makes tactical gameplay far less satisfying.

"you just probably won't be able to pull the camera back..."

Perhaps you are getting sucked in by Mike's view of what is and is not essential. This is not a "just probably" bit of tactical minutiae. The original DA developers didn't see the camera being locked in tight as "just probably" fare and neither do I.

This isn't about assumptions, its about who is taking an optimistic approach to what Mr. Laidlaw said and who is taking a negative approach.  While I enjoyed the potential of the tactical camera in DAO, I'd be lying if I said I used it all that much.  Maybe it's because every other Bioware RPG since KOTOR hasn't had it or maybe it's because almost no other RPG being made anymore uses that kind of camera, but I just don't require being able to pull back that far to feel it's tactical.  So I'm willing to give the developers the benefit of the doubt about the issue and assume that what they come up with will still provide a resonable amount of tactical control.  Beyond that, I can't be any more precise about what we are going to see because Mr. Laidlaw wasn't any more precise. 

And I don't know what you are talking about when you say "the original DA developers."  Mr. Laidlaw was the lead designer on DAO, just like he is on DA2.  Almost all the other developers seem to be returning in the same roles.  This is not a scenario where a different team of individuals is involved.  Either you trust the people who gave you the first game to give you something this time that maintains the core important aspects of the title you claim to have enjoyed or you don't.

If they want the benefit of the doubt,then they say clearly that they will not cut the gameplay typical of a PC that was in DAO.

[Dileos]

A. Sayalero wrote...


If a PC game sold well on PC, then it makes perfect sense to target the PC audience. And there is concrete proof that this game is a console port. Its been stated by Bioware numerous times that the PC version is more and more like the console.

People need to learn something about the PC RPG before blindly worship Bioware.

And now you're being hypocritical. You claimed that Dragon Age sold better on the console, which it did. So I'm not sure where you get off by saying that it sold better on the PC now. Secondly, I want sources as to where they said it was going to be more like the console version. Which is a stupid thing to say on its own considering that nobody knows what the console version is like.

And for example....

Combat on the consoles is being streamlined to better utilize the
controller interface. Combat on the PC should be largely the same.

Thats from the GI article.

In this very thread, BioWare stated that they will still have something akin to a tactical camera AND they will try to update the existing toolset. If they truly hated the PC version then they wouldn't even bother.

Modifié par Dileos, 08 août 2010 - 09:02 .

[A. Sayalero]

Dileos wrote...

A. Sayalero wrote...


If a PC game sold well on PC, then it makes perfect sense to target the PC audience. And there is concrete proof that this game is a console port. Its been stated by Bioware numerous times that the PC version is more and more like the console.

People need to learn something about the PC RPG before blindly worship Bioware.

And now you're being hypocritical. You claimed that Dragon Age sold better on the console, which it did. So I'm not sure where you get off by saying that it sold better on the PC now. Secondly, I want sources as to where they said it was going to be more like the console version. Which is a stupid thing to say on its own considering that nobody knows what the console version is like.

And for example....

Combat on the consoles is being streamlined to better utilize the
controller interface. Combat on the PC should be largely the same.

Thats from the GI article.

Enjoy your Dragon Effect 2 in PS3.
I 'll enjoy The Witcher 2 on my PC , rather than swallow a port.


gadgets.util.runOnLoadHandlers();

window.jstiming.load.tick("dl");

[Dileos]

A. Sayalero wrote...

Enjoy your Dragon Effect 2 in PS3.
I 'll enjoy The Witcher 2 on my PC , rather than swallow a port.


gadgets.util.runOnLoadHandlers();

window.jstiming.load.tick("dl");

And I'll enjoy knowing that you just ran out of ammunition in your misguided little rant.

And I plan on purchasing DAII for my PC, just as I did for DA:O and DA:A.

Modifié par Dileos, 08 août 2010 - 09:09 .

[Rurik948]

We still don't know what Bioware is planning. If it is just a loss of the highest angle of the camera, it will have nearly no impact on the game-play. The other story if a player is confined to close-up view right behind the protagonist like in Mass Effect. It makes combat more action-based and will possibly eliminate any tactical approach, including Tactical Screen, which in my opinion is one of the best RPG features ever used in gaming. It is just too early to arrive at any conclusions. Pretty sure Bioware will clarify this point soon. But I do hope for a consistency of the game-play.

Modifié par Rurik948, 08 août 2010 - 09:09 .

[SoR82]

Well i dont know about yu but im tottally reassured............





just incase its lost in the text that is sarcasm. All i can say is there better be one hell of a collectors edition otherwise you just lost approximatly half your pc gamers on these forums and elsewhere i routinly wander around..... smooth move