27 réponses à ce sujet

[Morfedel]

Ok, so I don't own DA yet. I was an avid player, and modder, of NWN.

I'm now very curious about DA, but my money was going to other things at the time. Then, I heard DA2 being advertised, but of course, I see that it won't have a toolset.

So, the question is... is the Toolset worthy? I mean, I MIGHT buy the game anyway, but I have several I'm considering, and the toolset's true capabilities. But, I just read a toolset thread where the people were asking if there would be a new update, and complaining of some problem that causes them to lose all their work?

So... is the toolset fun and worth actually making modules with? Are user-created modules out there as fun as the NWN ones were? And is it reliable enough? 

[FergusM]

There is not a great level of support in terms of patches, and there are numerous issues to work around. However, there is a very helpful community including several Bioware staffers.



It is a very complicated, time-consuming toolset. But it is also extremely powerful.



There are not that many mods released at this stage. Quality takes time.

[-Semper-]

there is absolutely no level of support by bioware, but there are lot of things to fix. the most gamebreaking bug is the lightmapper shipping with the toolset. this tool creates horrible lightmaps and therefore your levels (mostly indoor) will look bad. but the toolset is stable and you can work. there are also problems with talktables. this won't affect you at all if you are producing content in english.

also there is little variation in monster models and adding custom meshes is hardly possible, so do i believe. right now creating custom skeletons is very difficult due to the fact how the engine reads bone indices. correct me if i am wrong

so if you try to tell a story outside of the already known da:o setting better go for nwn1/nwn2. personally i think the neverwinter nights 2 toolset is the superior one.

Modifié par -Semper-, 07 août 2010 - 11:55 .

[Morfedel]

Wow, I'm beginning to think the same thing. Ugh.

[mikemike37]

while every toolset has its bugs, the DA toolset's ones are mostly work-around-able and have never caused me to lose work. but they are abundant.



the short answer is: its not a quick toolset to use (particularly not compared to NWN1 modding if thats what youre used to), but theres a lot you can do here. You really need to decide whether you want to invest in a long development time for mods. You may want to consider working in a team to get it covered quicker.



To answer Sempers question (was it a question?) Creating creatures with existing DA skeletons (humanoid being the obvious example) is really quite doable with a pleasing result. Making your own skeletons/anims is a little untested, so can't honestly tell you, but we're looking into it.



The lightmapper has its problems, to be sure... but they're not utterly crippling in my opinion. I think I've got some decent enough results, it just takes a lot of trial and error. It certainly isnt as simple/quick as it should be.



if you plan to develop mods for a non-english language, you will need to look into the talktable issues as I understand they're really quite bad.

[Morfedel]

 Ok, so bug issues aside, how would you compare the tool sets? I mean, I know nwn 1's big advantage was that it was easy... NWN 2 was more powerful but much more difficult... what are the pros and cons of modding in NWN2 vs DA?
Aside from the online play option, that is.
Also... as of this point, I know that DA has not been out real long so there isnt a lot of mods out for it yet... but how rich does the modding community for DA and NWN2 look? I remember NWN1's was pretty expansive, though finding true quality was more of a hunt...
I already have NWN2 (or, I think I do... I havent had it installed for awhile, and I just went looking for the disk and can't find it), and I want to make a module... I'm trying to decide whether to go with NWN2 (although I had lots of crashing playing the official game, kinda turned me off), or DA, or what.

[CID-78]

NWN2 has the benefit of plugins which together with easier tools for making exterior levels, flexible XML GUI. day/night cycle, scaling of props and creatures.



in all other fields DAtoolset power beats NWN2, but the work time is yet again increased to produce content.

[Proleric]

Many of the basic tasks (like configuring creatures and items, populating areas, writing conversations and scripting) are somewhat similar to NWN. There tends to be more configuration, less scripting, which saves time.

Level design is more powerful, but takes significantly longer to learn and execute. Lighting is not a showstopper.

Optional features (like cutscenes, conversation staging and VO) are excellent, but each has its own learning curve, and can increase build time exponentially.

For that reason, some projects prefer teamwork, with specialised roles like writer, level artist, general builder-scripter, cinematographer, VO producer and test coordinator.

[FergusM]

In short, going from NWN -> NWN2 -> DA, you go up in power but down in accessibility. Not surprising as games have become more technically complex in that time.

[JasonNH]

Pretty much agree with the consensus above, the only place where I think NWN2 has another advantage is in writing dialogues. It has the ability to logically and/or multiple conditions, attach multiple action scripts per node, and pass arguments to scripts via conversations. Add to the fact that you have the flexibility of NWN1 or NWN2 style dialogues, and I think DA was actually a step backwards here. You can accomplish what you need in DA of course, but it requires more custom script writing causing one more time sink.

NWN2 also has a much wider array of resources with respect to creatures, trees, and textures (particularly with both expansions), so you can create a wider array of worlds. If you mod DA, you are essentially locked into a DA lore module.

I have to give DA a huge nod for the head morphing tool though. The NWN2 heads are pretty hideous, along with the clunky animations to go with their bodies.

Modifié par JasonNH, 08 août 2010 - 12:08 .

[-Semper-]

Morfedel wrote...

what are the pros and cons of modding in NWN2 vs DA?

pro nwn2:

- lots of skills, races, classes, monsters to choose from
- working level building tool with far better lighting engine
- easier and faster to build, even as a one man army
- scaling resources in size
- nwn1/classical dialogue system with no close ups
- the ability to integrate new monsters (completely new meshes with custom skeletons)
- custom and easy ui integration
- easy fx editor
- lots of props to choose from (with the two addons)
- advanced dialogue building tool
- much better minimap creation
- easy integration of custom sounds and music

cons nwn2:

- hard in handling 2da merging (you have to do this manually - right now a modder is programming a merging tool)
- more or less static cutscenes
- sometimes unstable toolset with the chance to breake your module (save as directory will help)
- the need of an external 3d modeling tool to create custom indoor tiles
- problems with custom talktable integration (you have to extend the core talktable)
- no ongoing support by obsidian (BUT they provided lots of patches for their toolset)
- no editing of heads (you will need an external 3d modeling tool to create different heads BUT the integration of totally custom heads is possible - therefore easy integration of different races)
- no rotating around the z axis

pro da:o:
- cutscene management with animation blending and easy camera control
- easier integration of new level props and textures
- far superior 2da handling
- the ability to rotate around z axis
- very stable toolset
- level design is easy and straight foward, gives more flexibility
- no tiles
- easy fx editor
- stunning morph tool for quick and easy head creation (BUT you can't add custom base heads like different races)

cons da:o:
- totally bugged lightmapper
- problems with custom talktables
- few monsters and skills to choose from, only 3 classes
- lots of bugs the toolset suffers from (link)
- no scaling in size
- fewer props to choose from
- ingame level scaling (if that's a con for you)
- scripting is a bit different than from nwn1/nwn2, handling of plots (personally i found it more difficult)
- no support at all by bioware (they provided one patch which fixes only the database exporting issue)
- more or less hardcoded ui
- very difficult to almost impossible integration of new sounds and music
- long time baking process - we talk about hours if your machine does not contain multiple cores (with clunky outcome of the lightmaps)
- toolset tends to crash while morphing heads

Morfedel wrote...

I already have NWN2 (or, I think I do... I havent had it installed for awhile, and I just went looking for the disk and can't find it), and I want to make a module... I'm trying to decide whether to go with NWN2 (although I had lots of crashing playing the official game, kinda turned me off), or DA, or what.

depends on the story you want to tell. if your module/story contains classical adventure with classical monsters i would go for nwn2. if your story is based around the dragon age univers then go for da:o.

ps: with the nwn2 toolset you are able to reproduce the da:o story. with the da:o toolset you are only able to produce content within the da:o setting. i know that there is the beautiful work of the baldur's gate redux creators. despite the fact that this will look like baldur's gate, it will still feel like da:o.

Modifié par -Semper-, 08 août 2010 - 02:54 .

[AmstradHero]

One thing that hasn't been noted here is the player base. My DAO mod Alley of Murders has been downloaded about 20,000 times across a few iterations and sites about about 7 months, whereas my NWN2 mod Fate of a City has been downloaded about 11,000 over a couple of years.
I don't just mod for my own enjoyment, I mod for the players as well. DAO allows me to reach more people because it is a more popular and more recent game, even if NWN2 modding is easier in a number of aspects.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 08 août 2010 - 01:01 .

[-Semper-]

AmstradHero wrote...

One thing that hasn't been noted here is the player base. My DAO mod Alley of Murders has been downloaded about 20,000 times across a few iterations and sites about about 7 months, whereas my NWN2 mod Fate of a City has been downloaded about 11,000 over a couple of years.
I don't just mod for my own enjoyment, I mod for the players as well. DAO allows me to reach more people because it is a more popular and more recent game, even if NWN2 modding is easier in a number of aspects.

that is because your mod was the first story module available only one to two months after the release of da:o, although it adds only one quest to the main campaign. your nwn2 module came out 2 years after the release of nwn2 and is still being played. i highly doubt that in 2 years from now alley of murders will be played. so to speak i think the core fanbase of nwn2, although much smaller than the current da:o one, is far more faithful. in 2 years the da:o community will be shrunken to a very small minority.

it's the same like modding the infinity engine (this is still alive!) - the fanbase won't run away because these settings are abandoned. there is no sequel to draw away the attantion of the players and on top the remaining fans are not focused on the last graphical enhancement and will wait.

Modifié par -Semper-, 08 août 2010 - 02:10 .

[Morfedel]

Hm, and if you had to choose, is there a toolset you like more than the ones already listed? I mean for roleplaying purposes, I wouldn't be interested in a FPS for instance. I was really excited about the Witcher toolset, until I discovered I couldn't create new maps at all in it, for instance.



I don't mind complexity at all, as long as it's rewarded with real power, and is reliable, and will reach a fanbase. Like Amstradhero said, I like modding for myself, but I also want people to download and enjoy it

[CID-78]

more pro and cons for nwn2 toolset



pro nwn2

can resize exterior mesh when working on it.

support plugins so you got plenty of extra tool especially when it comes to making exterior areas.



pro DA

can handle very large areas, with defined mesh resolution and tessilations.



con DA

if you make the area to big the toolset will crash rather then prevent you, so be warned.

poor light quality when working on a area in the toolset

ineffective camra controls for working with a exterior mesh, you are forced to go in and change the camera controls in the setup files to even make it workable. 3dsmax control is not that bad on interior where you can select objects.

require a good mouse with a suitable middle button unless you yet again want to go in to the setting files and dig around.

[Kilrogg_]

CID-78 wrote...
con DA

require a good mouse with a suitable middle button unless you yet again want to go in to the setting files and dig around.

Really? Having a mouse with a middle mouse button is a significant requirement in 2010?

[danien.grey]

-Semper- wrote...
... so to speak i think the core fanbase of nwn2, although much smaller than the current da:o one, is far more faithful. in 2 years the da:o community will be shrunken to a very small minority...

Not to start a spat, but aren't you jumping the gun a bit here?  Unless you've got a crystal ball that I don't have, we have no idea what kind of community we will have in two years' time.  We can claim it will be different, sure, but to claim anything else would be fallacious.

[-Semper-]

Morfedel wrote...

Hm, and if you had to choose, is there a toolset you like more than the ones already listed? I mean for roleplaying purposes, I wouldn't be interested in a FPS for instance. I was really excited about the Witcher toolset, until I discovered I couldn't create new maps at all in it, for instance.

I don't mind complexity at all, as long as it's rewarded with real power, and is reliable, and will reach a fanbase. Like Amstradhero said, I like modding for myself, but I also want people to download and enjoy it

you could mod morrowind or oblivion. or fallout3 if you like the setting. yeah, the djinni toolset lacked the ability to create areas, but cd project released all their tools for exporting with max. there are also exporters for blender as i know. dunno what the witcher2 adds to the modding scene but in an interview a dev stated that they are planning to release a toolset.

you could also look into the udk (unreal engine 3) or ogre3d (open source renderer). these are sdk to develope your game from scratch, but you absolutely will need a team for this task

if i have to choose an rpg editor i would go for nwn2 toolset - right now it's the best rpg editor (if you like dnd rules). yes, nwn2 lacks high end graphical quality and there is no real cutscene management but the gameplay is entertaining and similar to the classic adventures. it's really sad how bioware easily gives away the potential of the da:o toolset as it is very powerful.

@cid-78 thx for adding more points to the list

danien.grey wrote...

Not to
start a spat, but aren't you jumping the gun a bit here?  Unless you've
got a crystal ball that I don't have, we have no idea what kind of
community we will have in two years' time.  We can claim it will be
different, sure, but to claim anything else would be fallacious. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

given the fact that their is no multiplayer support and that the players are very limited in classes, skills and monsters i would bet my money that in 2 years there will be a lot smaller community than for nwn2. you can't repeat the same story over and over for years. that's also why bioware is shipping da2 this fast - they have to feed the masses as long as they are alive.

Modifié par -Semper-, 11 août 2010 - 11:02 .

[FollowTheGourd]

Kilrogg_ wrote...

CID-78 wrote...
con DA

require a good mouse with a suitable middle button unless you yet again want to go in to the setting files and dig around.

Really? Having a mouse with a middle mouse button is a significant requirement in 2010?

In fairness, he did say a suitable middle mouse button. Lots have scroll wheels on them and feel like they require more force to press down without also turning it. Personally I hate that and map the middle mouse button to the extra thumb button on mine. Not really a big deal though.

Modifié par FollowTheGourd, 08 août 2010 - 07:00 .

[ladydesire]

-Semper- wrote...

danien.grey wrote...

Not to
start a spat, but aren't you jumping the gun a bit here?  Unless you've
got a crystal ball that I don't have, we have no idea what kind of
community we will have in two years' time.  We can claim it will be
different, sure, but to claim anything else would be fallacious. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

given the fact that their is no multiplayer support and that the players are very limited in classes, skills and monsters i would bet my money that in 2 years there will be a lot smaller community than for nwn2. you can't repeat the same story over and over for years. that's also why bioware is shipping da2 this fast - they have to feed the masses as long as they are alive.

Then why are Morrowind, Oblivion and Fallout 3 still going strong? None of those games have multiplayer, and probably don't have the same range of monsters as NWN or NWN2, but they don't seem to have lost their steam over the years. I'm not so sure their toolsets are really all that good (no separate stand alone campaigns possible), but they do have them and people seem to like modding for those games.

[-Semper-]

ladydesire wrote...

Then why are Morrowind, Oblivion and Fallout 3 still going strong? None of those games have multiplayer, and probably don't have the same range of monsters as NWN or NWN2, but they don't seem to have lost their steam over the years. I'm not so sure their toolsets are really all that good (no separate stand alone campaigns possible), but they do have them and people seem to like modding for those games.

you are indeed able to create .esm files (stand alone campaigns) - and there are lots of stand alone campaigns. with the help of the nif tools you are capable of creating completely new creatures with custom skeletons and their toolset was supported and therefore struggles with almost no bugs at all. plus they are sandbox games and have a far greater range of developing your character, while da:o is very light at this content. it's completely different.

Modifié par -Semper-, 08 août 2010 - 09:37 .

[Noir201]

Oblivion is always updating with new content, and new mods everyday, and at a fast rate, despite it being a 4 year old game, dragon age mods on nexus as a example doesn't, i only just started playing Oblivion due to being bored with dragon age, and waiting for newer content, but i know how much a nightmare it is to even make a face morph, let alone some of the great mods that have been made.

Fault imo goes to the next to no surport for the toolset from bioware end, which i don't think will be much in terms of mods even after the game is 2 years old.

[ladydesire]

-Semper- wrote...

ladydesire wrote...

Then why are Morrowind, Oblivion and Fallout 3 still going strong? None of those games have multiplayer, and probably don't have the same range of monsters as NWN or NWN2, but they don't seem to have lost their steam over the years. I'm not so sure their toolsets are really all that good (no separate stand alone campaigns possible), but they do have them and people seem to like modding for those games.

you are indeed able to create .esm files (stand alone campaigns) - and there are lots of stand alone campaigns. with the help of the nif tools you are capable of creating completely new creatures with custom skeletons and their toolset was supported and therefore struggles with almost no bugs at all. plus they are sandbox games and have a far greater range of developing your character, while da:o is very light at this content. it's completely different.

I know about esm files, but they are still not really what I consider stand alone; they require you to at least start the main questline before you can play them. They also require external tools to create, since Bethesda didn't include the ability to create them (all you can create in those games are esp files).

[-Semper-]

k, you have to use external programs to create an esm - there you are right. but that's easy and an one click solution and in no way hardcoded. without external tools da:o won't even handle the export of the created resources right and therefore your talk tables won't get recognized.

talkting about an esm file you don't have to start or load the oblivion.esm to get into your stand alone campaign. it's years ago but i've done it myself and other modders too. dunno how it was handled in morrowind, but in oblivion and fallout3 this was doable

www.youtube.com/watch

after 4 years of development look what's possible . it's a german total conversion called nehrim which tooks the gambryo engine of oblivion and creates a more classic adventure feel with static points and the need of masters to earn skills.

Modifié par -Semper-, 09 août 2010 - 07:43 .

[BioSpirit]

-Semper- wrote...
you could also look into the udk (unreal engine 3) or ogre3d (open source engine). these are sdk to develope your game from scratch, but you absolutely will need a team for this task

I was thinking about that my self and I allready ordered some books a week ago. Making a game engine and a toolset isn't an imposible task. There is a lot of skill in the modding community but still making a game engine and a full sized campaign is a major challenge. Having an ability to sell the content might inspire some people to work with such a project.

I took a look into the Ogre3D and downloaded some samples. Most of them will demonstrate the same effects as the DirectX samples do. I don't know yet which one would give a better results, a general purpose graphics engine like Ogre3D or a role-playing specialized engine made from scratch.

It is often more easier to make a software from scratch rather than trying to figure out how a software made by someone else is working. I suppose a good example is the lightmapper. Making a lightmapper for your own engine would be a lot more simple than making it for a DA:O toolset.