424 réponses à ce sujet

[Rubbish Hero]

It's fair to say high quility CRPG are all but dead.
Ironic Bioware of all developers would be the ones to drop the guillotine.

Modifié par Rubbish Hero, 09 août 2010 - 03:12 .

[Beerfish]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

It's fair to say high quility CRPG are all but dead.
Ironic Bioware of all developers would be the ones to drop the guillotine.

The first thing to detemine in disucssions like this is what is the defintion of a high quality rpg or even just an rpg because people have very very different definitions as to what that means.

[Big_Chief]

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Mike Laidlaw's comments (now linked in the original post) say that they are working to keep the tactical combat of the PC similar and/or the same? Soooo...what's the outrage about again? If I may direct you to the nearest window, you may be able to tell that the sky is not, in fact, falling.

[Rubbish Hero]

Big_Chief wrote...

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Mike Laidlaw's comments (now linked in the original post) say that they are working to keep the tactical combat of the PC similar and/or the same? Soooo...what's the outrage about again? If I may direct you to the nearest window, you may be able to tell that the sky is not, in fact, falling.

It will be tacked on as a gesture, like Ghost Recon: Advanced  Warfighter.  At heart, it's a console game, not a CRPG, they dropped all the talk at  it at the drop of a hat for more dollars, it's game over,  everything people loved about CRPG's is coming to an end, a new age of mediocrity has dawned.

Modifié par Rubbish Hero, 09 août 2010 - 04:25 .

[Bugzehat]

Big_Chief wrote...

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Mike Laidlaw's comments (now linked in the original post) say that they are working to keep the tactical combat of the PC similar and/or the same? Soooo...what's the outrage about again? If I may direct you to the nearest window, you may be able to tell that the sky is not, in fact, falling.

He said that camera might not pull up quite as far as in Origins. Forumites like to interpret that as "there will be OTS camera only" (personally I think it could mean an angle that's not quite as high as in Origins but still high enough to give a tactical overview). Similarly, he said they were looking into releasing a compatible toolset -- and a lot of people are interpreting that as "there will be no toolset at all". Yes, it's ridiculous, and no, people aren't going to listen if you point that out.

[Divine Justinia V]

Seriously?

[TheMadCat]

Bugzehat wrote...

Big_Chief wrote...

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Mike Laidlaw's comments (now linked in the original post) say that they are working to keep the tactical combat of the PC similar and/or the same? Soooo...what's the outrage about again? If I may direct you to the nearest window, you may be able to tell that the sky is not, in fact, falling.

He said that camera might not pull up quite as far as in Origins. Forumites like to interpret that as "there will be OTS camera only" (personally I think it could mean an angle that's not quite as high as in Origins but still high enough to give a tactical overview). Similarly, he said they were looking into releasing a compatible toolset -- and a lot of people are interpreting that as "there will be no toolset at all". Yes, it's ridiculous, and no, people aren't going to listen if you point that out.

You don't find it a bit odd that in the article in question there were definitive answers to these question and Mike who gave the interview never actually challenged the article. Rather he took to two hot topics, gave a couple of hollow answers saying "We're looking into this" and "We're still working on that", making sure at the end to clearly point that everything is of course subject to chance, and this is a style that contradicts his usual style of giving definitive answers.

If it really was a mistranslation, I would have figured he simply would have calirfied what was said to the reporters, saying this and that were taken out of context or were lost in translation. Instead we get a typical reflective PR statement which is something typically thrown out when consumers react negatively to something that has quite a bit of truth to it.  I don't know, but the way he went about it seems to lend credence that their is quite a bit of truth to what was noted from the article. We'll see though.

[-Semper-]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

...in the end it doesn't fit the new style and therefore was cut... but hey, you have that new superhot shoulder cam to examine the increased polycount of our new darkspawn. oh, and better don't expect a toolset release because we reached a point where it's too difficult to be handled by mere mortals like you are...

Modifié par -Semper-, 09 août 2010 - 04:37 .

[Bugzehat]

TheMadCat wrote...

You don't find it a bit odd that in the article in question there were definitive answers to these question and Mike who gave the interview never actually challenged the article. Rather he took to two hot topics, gave a couple of hollow answers saying "We're looking into this" and "We're still working on that", making sure at the end to clearly point that everything is of course subject to chance, and this is a style that contradicts his usual style of giving definitive answers.

Um, he explicitly said he thought something was lost in translation, doesn't that count as a "challenge"? The rest is pretty vague, sure -- because, as he said, things aren't set in stone yet. Of course, it's still possible that there will be no toolset and there will be OTS camera only, but people are talking like it's a definite thing, when the only information we have straight from the horse's mouth implies that the opposite will happen.

If it really was a mistranslation, I would have figured he simply would
have calirfied what was said to the reporters, saying this and that were
taken out of context or were lost in translation. Instead we get a
typical reflective PR statement which is something typically thrown out
when consumers react negatively to something that has quite a bit of
truth to it.  I don't know, but the way he went about it seems to lend
credence that their is quite a bit of truth to what was noted from the
article. We'll see though.

I imagine he's simply done a lot of PR recently, and along with being a new dad, probably can't remember exactly what was said to which journalist. What would be the purpose of saying one thing to a magazine and another here? People are going to find out the truth before release one way or another, and if it's going to affect sales, it's going to affect sales -- it doesn't matter what was said on the forums months before release.

I dunno, I get the feeling that people here think users of these forums are more important in terms of sales than they actually are. If there's a forum freakout, devs are free to ignore it without it really hurting their sales -- people here represent a tiny fraction of the people who will actually buy or consider buying the game. There's no need for BW (or, if you like, EA) to engage in some conspiracy to placate hardcore fans. The fact that they don't ignore the forums is something we should be grateful for.

[TheMadCat]

Bugzehat wrote...

Um, he explicitly said he thought something was lost in translation, doesn't that count as a "challenge"?

See, the whole "think" thing, I mean it's either what you said or it wasn't, there can't be a "maybe" in this case. I don't know, I'm probably looking way to hard into that word but like I said a few pages ago the whole statement and followups reek of political BS which is just so contradictory to the typical short, blunt, and definitive answers Mike usually gives us.

I imagine he's simply done a lot of PR recently, and along with being a new dad, probably can't remember exactly what was said to which journalist. What would be the purpose of saying one thing to a magazine and another here? People are going to find out the truth before release one way or another, and if it's going to affect sales, it's going to affect sales -- it doesn't matter what was said on the forums months before release.

Eh, damage control is much easier to apply near or at release then it is months away. You've got more you can show and for every one thing people don't like you can show three they will. First part of the statement is certainly a possibility.

I dunno, I get the feeling that people here think users of these forums are more important in terms of sales than they actually are. If there's a forum freakout, devs are free to ignore it without it really hurting their sales -- people here represent a tiny fraction of the people who will actually buy or consider buying the game.

See, I used to think this as well. But then we had that whole BioWare surprise which ended up being that contest for a very selective group despite being promised to the whole community as a thank you. There was just so much noice and rage and angst about that announcement and for a few days BioWare simply ignored it. But it didn't die down and eventually media outlets that cover gaming caught wind of the noise and that negativity began spreading around viral style. Once this happened BioWare came and squashed it with Ray's letter (Still waiting for a few of those promises from that letter to materalize:pinched:). Ultimately I think this showed that forum noise, even though it's just noise, can spread beyond these walls and bear a negative effect. That's why when I see definitive answers from a source and that very same source comes back with a hollow statement, I wonder. Is it the truth and there was a "mistranslation" or is he just trying to keep the noise at the expected level, (A notch above too much) and prevent the beast from getting out of it's cage again. I don't know and I'm not trying to proclaim I know, all just speculation at the moment and we'll see how it plays out.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 09 août 2010 - 05:11 .

[Talonfire]

In Exile wrote...

Xoanon69 wrote...

If you want to blame someone then blame Bioware. They are the ones who for years have been stringing people along with the promise that DA would be the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate and the PC RPG's of old, and yet after the release of only the first game in the franchise they do a complete U-turn and make it abundantly clear that the series is now being developed for the consoles.

Did you follow the development of DA?

Do you remember what everyone said about it compared to BG? Let me remind you:

They said it was dumbed down because of the party inventory, the heavy capacity to carry 70+ different items and to stack items, the fact that the combat was MMO-like, the fact we did not get statistics in the ability descrption, the fact that we could not attack anyone, the fact we lacked night/day cycles, the fact that we had these ''BS'' origin stories, which removed roleplay by not allowing you to create whatever character you wanted....

The list goes on. DA was absolute lambasted for not being BG when it came out. Yet now these same features are being defended.

The reality is that insofar as BG is concerned, people want an identical game. The fact Bioware did not produce and was never going to produce the same game is absolutely lost on that crowd.

Personally, I didn't know why folks wanted an identical game, Dragon Age was never intended to be a remake of either Baldur's Gate or Baldur's Gate II, nor was it intended to be a Baldur's Gate III. Dragon Age is not, and never was Baldur's Gate. I personally am of the opinion that if I want to play Baldur's Gate, I'll play Baldur's Gate, and in fact I'm playing it right now using the "Baldur's Gate Trilogy" mod. Even the vanilla game works fine on modern operating systems so I'm not itching for a remake of either game, or a sequel.

I did however factor in BioWare's proclamation that Dragon Age was a "spiritual successor" to Baldur's Gate when I played it. Generally a spiritual successor should feel like its predecessor, but I honestly did not get a Baldur's Gate vibe from Dragon Age at all. The tactical party based combat and presence of a P&P emulating rule set was the closest it ever got to being Baldur's Gate, but even those aspects felt off. I'm not particularly bent out of shape about what we know about Dragon Age 2 so far; I know that BioWare wants to "do something else" other than a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate. Seriously though, I don't even know how Origins was a spiritual successor in the first place, as far as I'm concerned it already is something different.

Regardless, I'm still opting to maintain a wait and see approach as we don't really know enough about the camera or toolset yet. I'm hoping that they'll make the top down camera better by making it more like the one in Infinity Engine games. In those games you could move the camera anywhere in the area, and instruct your party to move there. In Dragon Age the camera is locked around your party so you can only view a short distance ahead of your group, and thus you have to constantly click on the ground in front of you if you want to get somewhere. I'm hoping that Laidlaw is referring to an Infinity Engine-like camera when he's talking about a "free camera". The top down camera of Origins didn't work as well as it could have.

[aries1001]

Being a member of these forums and of forums at the RPGWatch and at the RPGCodex, it certainly seems like I have seen all of these arguments before. Oh, wait, I have. Back before when Origins were Origins we had this discussion as well. A lot of people here on the Bio boards and on the two other places I've mentioned did think that Bioware did streamline the RPG experience in Dragon Age: Origins.



I didn't. Not since I played the game - on easy even. And I don't think that streamlining the inventory and the user interface could be as what is called 'dumbing down'. Likewise I don't believe that making it so that you don't have to select an enemy or monster before you can attack it, will be 'dumbing the game down.' It might be streamlining it - yes - but to me, this is a very good thing as it makes the game less frustrated. In DA: Origins you'll have to manually move your character to attack or cast a spell - unlike in Baldur's Gate where you'll just unpause the spacebar and the characters would perform the actions, you ordered them to perform.



As for the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate, I see DA: Origins as the spiritual successor to all of Bioware's Games. I consider DA: Origins their MasterPiece, taking what they've learned from making all of their games and showing what they they're capable of doing - much like in the old times when a craftsman had to make just that, a masterpiece, to become just that - a Master.



I also don't think a game's story or the dialogues or the characters solely rely on a (broken) tactical aerial view that isn't isometric at all. The isomectric camera mode as I understand is 90 degrees slanted top down view, and the aerial view used in DA: Origins is at best maybe 45 degrees-60 degrees when pulled out. And I've played Planescape: Torment and had no problem with its fixed camera view....

[Rubbish Hero]

Beerfish wrote...

Rubbish Hero wrote...

It's fair to say high quility CRPG are all but dead.
Ironic Bioware of all developers would be the ones to drop the guillotine.

The first thing to detemine in disucssions like this is what is the defintion of a high quality rpg or even just an rpg because people have very very different definitions as to what that means.

Well, as far as ones with a decent budget behind them go "AAA" quility, yea, dead.
Everyone jumping the console bandwagon, including Bioware.

[Haexpane]

Dragonite wrote...

  just because they want to fit the game into the consoles, they did it, they just did it! I can't believe this.
 

The truth of the matter is there are OTHER GAMES ON CONSOLES W/ ISOMETRIC VIEW.  So it's not a 'Technical reason" it's much more of a "Bioware - tech" reason.

Summoner 1 had a functional tactical pause and real time view on the PS2 console.  Summoner 1 had a 4 person party, + Summoned party member, real time w/ pause combat etc...

Cut a few polygons from the Beard graphics if you are short on memory

[A. Sayalero]

Seagloom wrote...

Abriael_CG wrote...

The original news are jarring, and Laidlaw's response seemed more like a "we'll see" instead of an actual "debunking" of the interview (the excuse a moderator hastily used to close the thread).

I closed that thread primarily because it had devolved into personal attacks, unconstructive rage against BioWare, and was going off topic. It was no hastily used excuse with page after page of the same aside from a brief respite where some forumites thanked Mike Laidlaw for his post. Maybe the word debuked was poorly chosen, but let's not pretend that thread was anything short of a train wreck towards the end. If you have any further concerns with my decision PM them to me. Thanks.

Bioware is doing something very bad for their own fans feel rage.

[saphirekosmos]

Ayleus wrote...

saphirekosmos

"You know? After hearing all this incessant whining about how Bioware if failing, how they are going in the wrong direction, how they are dying as a traditional CRPG developer, how they are ruining DA, how they are nothing but money grubbing, moustache twirling villians bent on screwing over the "hardcore" and "old school" RPG players I can only think one thing: How hilarious it would be if DA2 plays more or less EXACTLY like DA:O, if it still has the deep story and all that that made the older games fun. If it ends up being better than DA:O in every way, even with some changes.



I mean it would be awesome if the game was like that in it won right, but d@^^!t I'd also love to see all the doomsayers and whiners eat crow. XD"\\\\


My response:
I will gladly eat crow on this if I am wrong. I LOVE DA:O for what it was attempting to do and wanted to support it fully so eating crow is the least I could do to have them carry on like they should. I've poured my money in so far for all DLC and even the damn books (yes, i read the 2 to get "into the feel of the game") so i believe I've earned my right to voice. This is U.S.A. after all. Please be kind. If you think I'm wacko (not talking to anyone in particular) just state your position kindly and calmly. I'm sure the OP and bioware staff would appreciate it as I would.

Yes you do have a right to voice your opinons and I have a right to voice mine. We all have that right. And for the record I am all about constructive critisisim, it is the whole "DA@ will suck, is horrrible, is not a true sequal, killed everything that made DA:O fun, etc" mindset that makes me wanna punch babies. Bottom line is we don't know enough to say one way or another how DA2 is going to turn out. Maybe it will be dumed down, maybe it wont. We simply don't know. And don't pull the whole "we can assume based on what the did with ME2" or "I've been playing since 19xx so I know change when I see it" becae we all know what assumeing does. > Also as for the whole DA2 is following in ME2s foot steps let me say this: it hold no air really. the DA2 team is a seperate team from the ME2 team. Different people have different ideas. The only thing from ME2 is the dialouge wheel. And that can be chalked up to the team seeing said whell and thinking it worked well for a voiced PC. I mean why don't we wait until we have some concrete facts before we condem the damn game. Maybe some actual gameplay video? You know, so we can actually SEE what it looks like rather than jumping the gun and assuming what it will be like.

[DespiertaLosNinos]

Rubbish Hero wrote...
Well, as far as ones with a decent budget behind them go "AAA" quility, yea, dead.
Everyone jumping the console bandwagon, including Bioware.

console bad, dont buy. Only poor kid buy console.  Bioware not make same game Blizzard.  Everything doomed
Gaming dead. dragon age 2 bad. Bioware big turd sellout


There you go Rubbish, feel free to copy and paste that as your response to most things.  I thought I might save you the effort.

[Rubbish Hero]

Haexpane wrote...

Dragonite wrote...

  just because they want to fit the game into the consoles, they did it, they just did it! I can't believe this.
 

The truth of the matter is there are OTHER GAMES ON CONSOLES W/ ISOMETRIC VIEW.  So it's not a 'Technical reason" it's much more of a "Bioware - tech" reason.

Summoner 1 had a functional tactical pause and real time view on the PS2 console.  Summoner 1 had a 4 person party, + Summoned party member, real time w/ pause combat etc...

Cut a few polygons from the Beard graphics if you are short on memory

It seems to me that Bioware have completely sold out for the "larger" audience rather than the actual "core" audience. In the long term, this  will be bad once pc gaming becomes king again as it indeed will however
unlikely it seems due to the flexible nature of the platform. I'm not  saying I wish ill upon the game, I'm just say... actually I am, I hope  this game fails quite badly.

All that buzz talk about consoles being in the past, back to there  roots, the spiritual successor to Baldurs Gate and looking "super hot". What  was all that about? Are they in some kind of alternate reality? Everything so far suggests Dragon Age 2 is less of a game.

Modifié par Rubbish Hero, 09 août 2010 - 06:58 .

[Lyssistr]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

It seems to me that Bioware have completely sold out for the "larger" audience rather than the actual "core" audience. In the long term, this  will be bad once pc gaming becomes king again as it indeed will however
unlikely it seems due to the flexible nature of the platform. I'm not  saying I wish ill upon the game, I'm just say... actually I am, I hope  this game fails quite badly.

All that buzz talk about consoles being in the past, back to there  roots, the spiritual successor to Baldurs Gate and looking "super hot". What  was all that about? Are they in some kind of alternate reality? Everything so far suggests Dragon Age 2 is less of a game.

 If they go hack & slash, indeed it's no longer going "back to the roots". We need more info on this, some sources say h&s, some say tactical, nothing's certain at the moment.

 Even if they do go h&s however, I don't think that tactical RPGs will become a niche, like e.g. adventure games. Hack & slash had become a niche as well (DIII being the exception), with most releases being mediocre, in lack of a better word. Yet Torchlight came from a small studio to bring some h&s awesomeness to the foreground.

 If Bioware wont be making tactical RPGs and there is demand for this type of game, some studio will rise and provide quality. It may not be AAA+ but smaller studios have powerful tools these days and can provide good graphics & sound. If they have good writers, smaller studios can deliver a pleasant experience.

 Platformers went dead and Trine came to the rescue, h&s went downhill and Torchlight came to the rescue.

 Personally, I just hope indie RPG development goes beyond Geneforge 1.000.000 and goes out to create games with good graphics (not necessarily AAA+ quality, but Torchlight/Trine quality), good sounds, good UI and cool stories.

 At the moment things don't look that bright, but the tools are there. Freely available, yet strong, engines, collections of decent texture packs etc. Since there is demand for tactical RPGs, someone will come and provide them.

Modifié par Lyssistr, 09 août 2010 - 07:16 .

[EvilDonkey]

From the other 50 thread topic, that is now locked:



"On the PC, however, we are

still working with the camera to keep the key elements of the tactical

experience there. I was actually playtesting some new camera code when

Victor found me, in fact, so I can give you the latest news on that

front.



While we likely won't pull as far up as we did in DA:O, I

have always felt that the key to tactical play was actually freeing

your camera from the character you're controlling to issue precise

orders, which is what we're tuning now. So, this means you can still

maneuver the camera around the battlefield and issue orders from a

remote location, just as you could in Origins."



Well, I love DA:O on the PC and hate it on the consoles. I cancelled my pre-order after reading the above. Ill have to see it and maybe try it before buying it. If it feels just a bit "consolish" to me, its a no buy.

[Ayleus]

saphirekosmos wrote:



Yes you do have a right to voice your opinons and I have a right to voice mine. We all have that right. And for the record I am all about constructive critisisim, it is the whole "DA@ will suck, is horrrible, is not a true sequal, killed everything that made DA:O fun, etc" mindset that makes me wanna punch babies. Bottom line is we don't know enough to say one way or another how DA2 is going to turn out. Maybe it will be dumed down, maybe it wont. We simply don't know. And don't pull the whole "we can assume based on what the did with ME2" or "I've been playing since 19xx so I know change when I see it" becae we all know what assumeing does. > Also as for the whole DA2 is following in ME2s foot steps let me say this: it hold no air really. the DA2 team is a seperate team from the ME2 team. Different people have different ideas. The only thing from ME2 is the dialouge wheel. And that can be chalked up to the team seeing said whell and thinking it worked well for a voiced PC. I mean why don't we wait until we have some concrete facts before we condem the damn game. Maybe some actual gameplay video? You know, so we can actually SEE what it looks like rather than jumping the gun and assuming what it will be like.



My response:



Well, i said i wouldn't talk anymore....but I will. Damn my eyes!

Ok, I will try to make this respectable.....umm.... we DO have lots of info on the game.

"

[Joystick] Why did you leave/forsake the "a la Baldur's gate" view on PC of the first Dragon Age?

[Mike Laidlaw]For budgetary reasons, we focused our work on a 3rd person view, that asks for very detailed and nice textures so that the player can admire the game with a close-up view. With an aerial view [isometric] we should cover much more ground and so create other textures. Now, the game mainly sold on console, so we're going the way of the audience"

"

with the illusive response from mike:



"On the PC, however, we are still working with the camera to keep the key elements of the tactical

experience there (interjection by me... YOU ARE NOT SAYING ANYTHING HERE MIKE...THIS IS ILLUSIVE AND NOT A STRAIGHT FORWARD ANSWER.....now can I worry??). I was actually playtesting some new camera code when Victor found me, in fact, so I can give you the latest news on that front."

AND:

"While we likely won't pull as far up as we did in DA:O, I

have always felt that the key to tactical play was actually freeing

your camera from the character you're controlling to issue precise

orders, which is what we're tuning now. So, this means you can still

maneuver the camera around the battlefield and issue orders from a

remote location, just as you could in Origins." (AGAIN, THIS IS TELLING OF WHAT MINDSET IS GOING INTO THIS GAME.....HYBRIDIZE PC VERSION FOR CONSOLE! SO SILLY, THEY DON'T NEED TO DO THIS)



finally:

Mike said, "As you can probably tell from my phrasing, all of this is a bit in-flux right now,

so things may change between now and ship, but I wanted to update you guys on the current direction of things." (THIS IS TO GIVE PEOPLE WHO WILL BE DISAPPOINTED WITH THE CHANGES STATED CLEARLY IN THE ARTICLE HOPE SO THAT THEY WILL BLINDLY SUPPORT BIOWARE AND HELP AGAINST ANY MELTDOWN.....UNTIL IT GETS CLOSER TO RELEASE AND THEN IT WILL BE TOO LATE).



http://social.biowar...index/4376174/1



Now, this isn't the only thing we have. New darkspawn look (which stink btw, anyone hear the 2nd podcast from art director (http://social.biowar...1/index/3354749)..... listen to it and tell me if it doesn't sound like they are drastically changing this game art wise for the worse....did i hear him say gears of war (and other 3rd person action games)and japan action style?!?!?), new qunari (which I don't mind b/c at least the explanation of "some have no horns is acceptable to me), and hell....new look for EVERYONE except humans of course!

Couple that with only showing gameplay for console so far at comic con.....only human as playable character.....narrative framed story telling (which I initially liked) so that they can EXAGGERATE ACTION in the game.... Mike even said in an interview that this will help the game jump to the more important parts of the game (so what, the in-between stuff in DA:O like camping and map traveling which while not awesome, helped with the immersion, is not marketable now so scrap it?) And there is more....i'm just tired of typing it



Guys and gals, this game is being streamlined away from cRPG which was the initial premise for the franchise!!!!!!!!!!! It is right there for you to accept, if you are willing. Sure, there is some speculation and even pessimism, but it is warranted. Just look around you...it is there to see.



Sorry for the long post....lots of quotes and what not:)

[EvilDonkey]

@Ayleus



Yeah, thats pretty much how I see it. But we do have limited info, so ill wait and see. If I dont like what I see, ill just not buy it.



I was pretty hypped about DA2 until I read about the Japanese/Asian style, more action, build for console, no mod tool and limited PC -> console view.



I do however like the dialog wheel and the "new" story telling.



Dropped my pre-order and "unliked" on facebook.

[Sylvius the Mad]

EvilDonkey wrote...

I was pretty hypped about DA2 until I read about the Japanese/Asian style, more action, build for console, no mod tool and limited PC -> console view.

I do however like the dialog wheel and the "new" story telling.

I also dislike the dialogue wheel and PC voice-over.