424 réponses à ce sujet

[SirOccam]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

SirOccam wrote...
And again, I'm not criticizing anyone "for making criticisms." If someone hated ME2, fine. If they hate DAO, fine. If they think DA2 will be bad, fine. I don't care. What I am interested in is why people feel the way they do. These forums would be pretty lame if it was only full of "I like this" or "I don't like this" and no resultant discussion.

How is this not a criticism:

What I object to is people using things like "ME2 was bad" as a basis
for arguing that BioWare shouldn't include any ME2-like things in DA2.
When it's being used as a foundation for an argument, that's using it
objectively.

And mostly, it's something that has bugged me for a
while, how people look down on things that are commercially successful.
They rail against the "unwashed masses" and the "herd mentality" and
whatnot, but what I want to know is, what makes the unwashed masses
wrong?

You're objecting to their opinion; that is a criticism. How else can you object to something unless you have passed your judgment on the subject and determined it to be wrong in your mind?

No, again, I'm objecting to the use of "bad" as though it were an objective label. I'm not objecting to someone thinking something was bad.

Regardless, it is perfectly valid for someone to say they do not want ME2 elements in DA2 if they disliked said elements in ME2. The foundation for their argument is the fact that they disliked said feature. Yes, their decision of whether or not to like it is subjective, but it is an objective truth (unless they're lying) that they dislike it, and that can be used as a basis to an argument as to why such a feature should or should not be included.

You are right, that's totally valid. And once more, I have no problem with that. If I hated ME2, I wouldn't be pleased if DA2 began to resemble it in any significant way either. It would be refreshing if people came out and said "I don't like what I'm hearing because it sounds like ME2 and I didn't like ME2." I still might question their assertion that a piece of news actually does make it sound like ME2, but it's not their opinion I'd be objecting to.

It's like when people say DA2 is becoming Mass Effect because there's a voiced protagonist and the dialogue is in a wheel instead of a list. I do not object to their dislike of Mass Effect. What I want to ask those people, though, is why they feel like those changes are significant enough to generalize the whole game as being like Mass Effect. Like I said, I want to know why people feel the way they do. Having a logical foundation for one's arguments is what differentiates stating an opinion and stating something as fact. If they can't (or won't) show any reasoning, then it comes across as though they are simply taking it for granted that Mass Effect was bad. I find that logically fallacious, and therefore I post and ask for elucidation.

Modifié par SirOccam, 11 août 2010 - 03:27 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

SirOccam wrote...
Having a logical foundation for one's arguments is what differentiates stating an opinion and stating something as fact.

No, it isn't. Logical foundations merely lend credence to an opinion. I have logical foundations for why I hate ME2's writing, but that doesn't make it a fact.

[izmirtheastarach]

SirOccam wrote...
Having a logical foundation for one's arguments is what differentiates stating an opinion and stating something as fact.

Generally I find that something actually being a fact is what differentiates it from being an opinion or a fact.

You guys do make for a great read, though.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 11 août 2010 - 03:44 .

[SirOccam]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

SirOccam wrote...
Having a logical foundation for one's arguments is what differentiates stating an opinion and stating something as fact.

No, it isn't. Logical foundations merely lend credence to an opinion. I have logical foundations for why I hate ME2's writing, but that doesn't make it a fact.

I know, I meant having a logical foundation is what makes it an opinion, not a fact. Though that's probaby not a good way of putting it. Let me rephrase...an opinion is open to being questioned. If you are stating a fact, then there's nothing to question.

If you assert that ME2's writing was bad, then that's using it objectively, even though it is subjective. If I ask for elaboration, that doesn't mean I think you can't have that opinion, but I want to know why. If you refuse to elaborate, but keep using it as a basis for other arguments, then you're still using it objectively.

Like if, for example, a member of the ME2 writing team joined the DA2 writing team, and your argument was that this was bad because ME2's writing was bad, then that sounds like you want it to be objective. Technically it's just a subjective opinion built on another subjective opinion, but it comes across as though you expect everyone to just accept that ME2's writing was bad. People will probably want to know what you thought was bad about it, or why you think one writer would have such a significant impact that it should even be an issue. Or any number of other things. That doesn't mean they think your opinion is invalid or demonstrably wrong.

And there's nothing wrong with it being subjective, but I like to know what those reasons are, especially if I thought ME2's writing was the best writing ever (not that I do).

Another example: if I express optimism that DA2 will have a good story, it's based partially on my opinion that DAO's story was really good, but also on the fact that the same writing team that worked on DAO is working on DA2. You can question me on why I thought DAO's story was so good (since that's subjective), but there's no rationalization needed for the second one. It is the same writing team, period.

So this is why I'm so curious about this stuff. People state something, I ask them why they think the way they do, and they get all defensive, like I'm saying they're not allowed to have opinions. I just want to know WHY, say, a voiced protagonist is bad. "It was in ME2 and I didn't like ME2" might be a reason to you, but it just opens up a whole new set of questions for me. Similarly, slamming DA2 because BioWare are implementing changes they think will be popular only raises questions from me, such as "why is that a bad thing?"

It's no different than when people slam Coldplay or the TV show Friends or whatever else. Yeah, I get that you don't like it, but it sounds an awful lot like you don't like it because so many people do like it.

Modifié par SirOccam, 11 août 2010 - 04:01 .

[SirOccam]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

SirOccam wrote...
Having a logical foundation for one's arguments is what differentiates stating an opinion and stating something as fact.

Generally I find that something actually being a fact is what differentiates it from being an opinion or a fact.

I didn't say it separates an opinion from a fact, I said it differentiates "stating an opinion" from "stating something as fact." You can easily state an opinion as a fact without it actually being a fact. The difference is that facts don't need reasoning to support them. Opinions do, at least if they're supposed to be more interesting than "I like the color blue."

[CrapCommando]

The reason given in the article was "budgetry reasons" surely EA can afford to give DA 2 a little extra money for a tactical camera and mod tools. I think many PC players would be happy to wait a little longer even to have these features included. Without the mod tools then customisation options virtually disappear for all but the most experienced modders and the loss of a tactical denies players the option to play the game in a more tactical way, which is a big draw card for many. Please Bioware, if you are considering removing these features think again, think of the loyal fans who loved the first DA.

[Lyssistr]

I think it's not fit to compare DA2 to ME2 for one reason, ME2 wasn't marketed as "return to the roots" different franchise, different purpose.



Personally speaking, the diversity from several sources on if the game is h&s or not, some say this -some say that - go figure - together with absence of proper top down view, possible absence of user mods has totally killed my appetite. Still, I'll wait for videos on youtube before I decide, these will settle the dust and make things clear.



It's not that I don't like h&s games, in fact I may play more h&s than tactical, the thing is I trust other companies for my h&s and my reaction, if they indeed decide to go that way, would be the same as in a hypothetical scenario where Blizzard announced a tactical Diablo III.



If it was ME3 being a quake clone, I couldn't care less tbh, ME was more like a spiritual successor to Kotor and it does that just fine. DA franchise was about returning to roots/spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate/old school revival, most old-school games were build with PC gameplay in mind.



I'm not saying that DA2 will be a bad game if they chose to make it h&s, just that it will no longer be the "return to roots" thing, which is why I got involved with DA franchise in the first place.



TLDR: not a matter of good or bad, some changes may simply shift the focus of this franchise.

[Damusique]

To me it's like this:



ME1 + ME2 = Great action/TPS/with-some-RPG-elements...and I mean GREAT spent many hours on those awesome games.



DA: Origins = Great Party-based RPG, kind of like RPG's from the past (though could be better, wtf was with that leashed tactical camera? give me free tactical camera and fog-of-war please)



Anyway the point is they are different...both Great...but different. I therefore do not see Bioware's purpose in moving DA closer to action-(kinda)rpg when they already have Mass Effect owning that genre.

[Ayleus]

WOW!!! Seriously....is this a f***ing kindergarden class or what? Do you people (no names specifically, but you'll see) have brain damage....what is the problem. This thread is for ppl who essentially don't like the changes to DA2 where it looses the old school feel. My god.....



"They have a right to be constructive, to be polite. They don't have the right to "bash" the developers on their board. This isn't a fan board, these are the official BioWare forums."



This is a completely foolish thing to say....the language is snide and likely to start a word battle (which it did) with responses like "I'm not bashing...we have right to say blah blah" STFU. Get out of here. If you don't like ppl complaining about what you hold so dear....GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. There are plenty of threads with ppl who don't mind what is happening...thats fine. Again, for the 100th damn time it feels like.....DA franchise targeted the old school cRPG crowd initially. We have ever right to be upset when they mostly (probably to get worse) switch gears and leave us behind for profit. Every damn right in the world. Bioware should listen. And you should learn how to understand things in context......







SirOcca



"And mostly, it's something that has bugged me for a while, how people look down on things that are commercially successful. They rail against the "unwashed masses" and the "herd mentality" and whatnot, but what I want to know is, what makes the unwashed masses wrong?"



This isn't about right or wrong.....why is everyone going apeshyt over the dumbest things. IF YOU LIKE THE GAME, GO TO A THREAD WITH LIKE MINDED PPL. You won't see me in a "DA2 is completely awesome no questions asked" thread bellowing how I dislike the info so far....so don't come in here and start on about how ME2 or DA2 is a good this or a good that. We are talking about bioware following the trend of appealing to the console audience (ex.s....no iso cam and no toolset mainly....but VO and dialogue wheel as well amongst others) How does this thread get off on such stupid shyt like this. Oh, it because ppl come in and start sturring up trouble by "debating" and next thing we know....we're talking about what is the "Greatest way to make a game." We all know its subjective....good lord, what revelations are we coming to here?



Again....read this carefully: This thread is primiarly to say "Hey, bioware....there are ppl who really don't like the direction you are taking your games...namely DA2 in this case." or even "Do you even care about your intially targeted audience bioware?"



Sigh, I'm so tired of listening to childish bs and topics bouncing around like teletubbies on crack (I have no idea where this came from....it's scaring me actually now that i think about it). Seriously guys, do you really have nothign better to do?

[Damusique]

Ayleus wrote...

WOW!!! Seriously....is this a f***ing kindergarden class or what? Do you people (no names specifically, but you'll see) have brain damage....what is the problem. This thread is for ppl who essentially don't like the changes to DA2 where it looses the old school feel. My god.....

"They have a right to be constructive, to be polite. They don't have the right to "bash" the developers on their board. This isn't a fan board, these are the official BioWare forums."

This is a completely foolish thing to say....the language is snide and likely to start a word battle (which it did) with responses like "I'm not bashing...we have right to say blah blah" STFU. Get out of here. If you don't like ppl complaining about what you hold so dear....GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. There are plenty of threads with ppl who don't mind what is happening...thats fine. Again, for the 100th damn time it feels like.....DA franchise targeted the old school cRPG crowd initially. We have ever right to be upset when they mostly (probably to get worse) switch gears and leave us behind for profit. Every damn right in the world. Bioware should listen. And you should learn how to understand things in context......



SirOcca

"And mostly, it's something that has bugged me for a while, how people look down on things that are commercially successful. They rail against the "unwashed masses" and the "herd mentality" and whatnot, but what I want to know is, what makes the unwashed masses wrong?"

This isn't about right or wrong.....why is everyone going apeshyt over the dumbest things. IF YOU LIKE THE GAME, GO TO A THREAD WITH LIKE MINDED PPL. You won't see me in a "DA2 is completely awesome no questions asked" thread bellowing how I dislike the info so far....so don't come in here and start on about how ME2 or DA2 is a good this or a good that. We are talking about bioware following the trend of appealing to the console audience (ex.s....no iso cam and no toolset mainly....but VO and dialogue wheel as well amongst others) How does this thread get off on such stupid shyt like this. Oh, it because ppl come in and start sturring up trouble by "debating" and next thing we know....we're talking about what is the "Greatest way to make a game." We all know its subjective....good lord, what revelations are we coming to here?

Again....read this carefully: This thread is primiarly to say "Hey, bioware....there are ppl who really don't like the direction you are taking your games...namely DA2 in this case." or even "Do you even care about your intially targeted audience bioware?"

Sigh, I'm so tired of listening to childish bs and topics bouncing around like teletubbies on crack (I have no idea where this came from....it's scaring me actually now that i think about it). Seriously guys, do you really have nothign better to do?

Oh wow much rage.

Though you're mostly right, especially:
"DA franchise targeted the old school cRPG crowd initially. We have ever
right to be upset when they mostly (probably to get worse) switch gears
and leave us behind for profit."
Feels bad man

[SirOccam]

Ayleus wrote...

WOW!!! Seriously....is this a f***ing kindergarden class or what? Do you people (no names specifically, but you'll see) have brain damage....what is the problem. This thread is for ppl who essentially don't like the changes to DA2 where it looses the old school feel. My god.....

...

Sigh, I'm so tired of listening to childish bs and topics bouncing around like teletubbies on crack (I have no idea where this came from....it's scaring me actually now that i think about it). Seriously guys, do you really have nothign better to do?

Consider me duly chastened. I only wish I could be as mature as you. Thank you for demonstrating what thoughtful discourse is supposed to look like.

Apparently the point of threads is for people who all think exactly the same thing to come together and tell each other how brilliant they are. I never realized.

Modifié par SirOccam, 11 août 2010 - 05:25 .

[Ayleus]

@Damusique



lol I know...... my patience is a bit thin sometimes. I'm actually turned cool right after I posted......suppose it just got to the boiling point with all the nonsense building up on this thread and I just needed to release. I guess I should expect such things in forums like this though huh

[Ayleus]

SirOccam

"Consider me duly chastened. I only wish I could be as mature as you. Thank you for demonstrating what thoughtful discourse is supposed to look like."



And thanks for you sarcasm....way to contribute Can we all get back on topic plz?

[Onyx Jaguar]

No

[SirOccam]

Ayleus wrote...

SirOccam
"Consider me duly chastened. I only wish I could be as mature as you. Thank you for demonstrating what thoughtful discourse is supposed to look like."

And thanks for you sarcasm....way to contribute Can we all get back on topic plz?

Sure.

OMGZ SUCH A GR8 IDEA!!11!1

[Damusique]

SirOccam wrote...

Ayleus wrote...

SirOccam
"Consider me duly chastened. I only wish I could be as mature as you. Thank you for demonstrating what thoughtful discourse is supposed to look like."

And thanks for you sarcasm....way to contribute Can we all get back on topic plz?

Sure.

OMGZ SUCH A GR8 IDEA!!11!1

This one is very clever

[Onyx Jaguar]

indeed

[SirOccam]

Hey, by Ayleus' definition, that's what contributing to a thread is.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Poster 1: yarr RAEG

Poster 2: Sarcastic comment

Poster 1: yarr RAEG @sarcasm



Poster 3: Profit



Also hte lack of isometric camera would suck unless it isn't completely nerfed

[Ayleus]

Oh, btw, here is a link to bioware's responses to people's concerns:



http://social.biowar...ex/3099230&lf=8



I even quoted one of them above (meant to put this in there darnit). It doesn't sound good. Its mostly just, "Sorry, we understand your displeasure, but we like what we do." Although, here is something interesting....



"CarlSpackler wrote...

This is perhaps the most frustrating part of your response. I guess I didn’t phrase my questions very well as this seems to miss the mark a little. Let me try and be more clear, DAO’s character narrative worked a certain way. DA2 is changing this model (albeit perhaps slightly), this much we know. This is information you have revealed. Now perhaps the change once seen will be less pronounced than we believe, but the changes are hardly completely unknown quantities. All I was trying to ask is what went into the decision process here? Why change what was a popular and successful model? When was this decided?



blah blah



but this response is a bit telling of the behind the scenes business.....



Mike Laidlaw:



"With regards to the "why did we make these changes?" question, as in what was the thought process behind it-- I'll leave that to the people who actually make those decisions. But at the end of the day it's the creative direction we wanted to take-- I'm not sure how much more we can explain that. We changed the formula, and even if the response from the most ardent fans is "OMG HOW COULD YOU" that's what we wanted to do, and it's not intended as a "slap in the face" as some people here like to paint it -- we're picking a path for ourselves, not running a committee, and the particulars of what went into that decision are often as much personal as they are business."



Anybody find the "I'll leave that to the people who actually make those decisions" part intriguing? Sounds like we have EA uppers (which greg and ray are I've heard through the vine) truly commanding the ship doesn't it. It's speculative, sure....but this stuff does make you feel like the square peg just went into the square hole and we can start to give credit to ppl who blame EA for their roots departure



Oh well, I suppose it doesn't matter. These forums don't really matter. They don't care and it's being made the way they want it regardless of the core fanbase's opinion.

[Ayleus]

Just to support the ray/greg works directly for EA theory.....



http://www.gamasutra...php?story=24227



"it was announced that BioWare co-founders Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk will head up EA's new RPG/MMO Group. Along with BioWare, it includes EA's other big MMO developer, Mythic Entertainment, which maintains Warhammer Online, Dark Age of Camelot, and Ultima Online."



Just thought it was interesting. I used to believe that ppl talking about EA owning bioware was just talk and that bioware had almost all control over their studios and EA was just the publisher.....apparently they do more than publish. Whoops

[Saibh]

Ayleus wrote...

Just to support the ray/greg works directly for EA theory.....

http://www.gamasutra...php?story=24227

"it was announced that BioWare co-founders Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk will head up EA's new RPG/MMO Group. Along with BioWare, it includes EA's other big MMO developer, Mythic Entertainment, which maintains Warhammer Online, Dark Age of Camelot, and Ultima Online."

Just thought it was interesting. I used to believe that ppl talking about EA owning bioware was just talk and that bioware had almost all control over their studios and EA was just the publisher.....apparently they do more than publish. Whoops

...What's...your...point? That now that BioWare has bigger opportunities, they choose to take them? I do not see one "And then all of the eeeevil staff of EA moved in on BioWare's turf and took over the writing and direction of the games."

Am I missing something?

[Kenrae]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Saibh wrote...
What exactly is your point? You've already said "you probably have the right to complain about complainers!". Great. Then any complaining on your part about complaining is just hypocritical, wouldn't you say?

I was trying to understand what you get out of hypocritically complaining about complainers. I personally find a lot of pleasure in debating. I'm making my points fairly clearly imo.

I can complain about ME2. You can complain about my complaint. I can complain about your complaint about my complaint.

If person A makes a subjective point and explains their reasons, that is fine. If Person B complains about the mere fact that someone is complainging, that's odd. If Person C points out that complaining about complaining is hypocritical, that's funny and makes a point to Person B. At which point Person B gets offended and tries to turn the tables on Person C, which is also funny.

Granted, that is my opinion. Feel free to complain about it. :happy:

Now I feel dizzy:lol: