424 réponses à ce sujet

[Kenrae]

JoePinasi1989 wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel + SirOccam + Saibh = Discussion of the Century

EDIT

LOL, sorry, I'm finished, that's all! You guys may prattle on in peace about the virtues of the difference of opinion.

At least reading them is interesting. That's good for a change.

[Kenrae]

SirOccam wrote...
It's no different than when people slam Coldplay or the TV show Friends or whatever else. Yeah, I get that you don't like it, but it sounds an awful lot like you don't like it because so many people do like it.

I don't like Coldplay because I find them boring and they make me sleep. I couldn't feel more cold about some music.
Is that good enough?

[Ayleus]

I'm sorry to bring up the word, but if Saibh doesn't embody the very definition of a crusading fanboy, then I don't know what does. Coming into negative threads about DA2 and battling for the side of EA's bioware. Look kid, buy your streamlined game and be happy. Your need to come in here and make these instigative comments is both revealing and sad. So many "Saibh friendly" threads and you choose the ones where you can argue and carry on worse than the ppl you war against. You're a child....and if you aren't by biological age, then you are mentally. I've seen you in other threads, and it's always the same do-no-wrong-bioware crap without ever listening or learning anything from what others have to say (especially bioware themselves ). Oh well, not everyone is a gem. I hope they close down this thread. Hell, do away with the whole damn forum....its a joke and so am I for thinking that voicing my concerns on this forum with other like minded core fans would matter in the slightest. DA franchise seems consolized probably never to turn back to its initial promise....although I'll keep my eye on it just in case even though it looks bleak.

[Damusique]

Saibh wrote...

Ayleus wrote...

Just to support the ray/greg works directly for EA theory.....

http://www.gamasutra...php?story=24227

"it was announced that BioWare co-founders Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk will head up EA's new RPG/MMO Group. Along with BioWare, it includes EA's other big MMO developer, Mythic Entertainment, which maintains Warhammer Online, Dark Age of Camelot, and Ultima Online."

Just thought it was interesting. I used to believe that ppl talking about EA owning bioware was just talk and that bioware had almost all control over their studios and EA was just the publisher.....apparently they do more than publish. Whoops

HURDUR EA is ma BFF's they not evil and force respected companies to make **** games

Am I missing something?

Reading between the lines

[SirOccam]

Ayleus wrote...

its a joke and so am I for thinking that voicing my concerns on this forum with other like minded core fans would matter in the slightest.

I'm genuinely curious...do you really think people should only post in topics they agree with? If so, then what's the point of the forums? Just a glorified set of petitions for people to sign?

[Onyx Jaguar]

So the fact that the founders of Bioware now have high positions within EA is a bad thing

[AllThatJazz]

Ayleus wrote...

I'm sorry to bring up the word, but if Saibh doesn't embody the very definition of a crusading fanboy, then I don't know what does. Coming into negative threads about DA2 and battling for the side of EA's bioware. Look kid, buy your streamlined game and be happy. Your need to come in here and make these instigative comments is both revealing and sad. So many "Saibh friendly" threads and you choose the ones where you can argue and carry on worse than the ppl you war against. You're a child....and if you aren't by biological age, then you are mentally. I've seen you in other threads, and it's always the same do-no-wrong-bioware crap without ever listening or learning anything from what others have to say (especially bioware themselves ). Oh well, not everyone is a gem. I hope they close down this thread. Hell, do away with the whole damn forum....its a joke and so am I for thinking that voicing my concerns on this forum with other like minded core fans would matter in the slightest. DA franchise seems consolized probably never to turn back to its initial promise....although I'll keep my eye on it just in case even though it looks bleak.

You're the one throwing around personal insults at people who don't agree with your views. I don't think you're in a good position to be labelling someone else as a 'child'. Resorting to name-calling is a sure fire way to undermining an otherwise interesting debate, and to getting this thread locked. If you would like to be able to discuss the problems you have with this game without the input of those who do not share your opinion, why don't you start a private group? Otherwise, everybody is entitled to post here. 

[Gatt9]

Saibh wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

This is exactly my point. Everyone whose expectations are not being met are saying so. That's fine. People are allowed to express their opinions. I'm sick and tired of people saying crap like "Stop bashing BioWare!!!"

Erm, why should they? If BioWare is disappointing them then they have every right to say so.

They have a right to be constructive, to be polite. They don't have the right to "bash" the developers on their board. This isn't a fan board, these are the official BioWare forums.

Mostly, all of the complaints come off as unmitigated whining with no basis in fact and without looking at the whole picture, and all of it we've heard a hundred times.

You may want to do some homework on that topic.  You've got quite alot of misconceptions.

Gaming history is rife with this exact topic,  "X is the greatest,  everything must be X!!!".  History shows what happens,  Industry contracts,  by a fairly large margin.

The last time this happened was the RTS craze in the late 90's/early 00's.  Blizzard released Warcraft 2 and Starcraft,  Westwood released Command and Conquer and Red Alert.  Suddenly,  every single game had to be an RTS,  every single studio had to be making one.

What happened next was predictable.  Studios bellied up left and right.  Microprose switched it's X-com franchise to RTS...and when it didn't sell,  Microprose bellied up.  Down went one of the founders of gaming.  Looking Glass,  widely regarded as a Blizzard quality studio died because it's parent,  Ion Storm,  dumped ridiculous amounts of money into an RTS(Dominion?) that it couldn't give away.  No money for the studio who made System Shock and Thief.

Many studios died on the switch,  the industry contracted rapidly and the ramifications still exist today (That's no small part of the reason why Atari is on the ropes,  and why Activision was one bad game away from Bankruptcy till they got Blizzard). 

This is no different,  "Every game must be a Shooter!  Only Shooters are worth making!".  The end result will be the same.  Who's the victims?  Shaping up to be Bioware and Bethseda.  Over-invested in a "Fad" the marketers insist is the only way to make a game,  both parents appear over-extended and ready to topple.  Alienating fanbases in pursuit of a mythical audience, with backlash increasing.  Now they also have to contend with a gaming market that's clearly shrinking and a "Me too!" product line.

It's exactly how many studios have fallen,  and it's *going* to repeat itself here.

You really should learn the history of the topic if you want to discuss it,  because all of the signs are here that we're up for a massive contraction in the market,  and that Bioware's priming itself to be a casualty. 

If you assert that ME2's writing was bad, then that's using it objectively, even though it is subjective. If I ask for elaboration, that doesn't mean I think you can't have that opinion, but I want to know why. If you refuse to elaborate, but keep using it as a basis for other arguments, then you're still using it objectively.

It's not really an assertion or a matter of opinion,  it's really fact.  Examples....

-One of our strongest ships captained by our hero went down,  but ten people were missing,  go to it's site and search for them!

Turns out,  those ten highly trained professionals on one of the fleets premiere ships thought the best thing to do in a firefight was hide in a box,  even when the evacuation order was given.  Then the highly trained recovery team couldn't figure out how to open said boxes and look inside.

Really?  Or was it just bad design and scripting that lead to a fedex mission where people just decided to hide things in boxes despite the fact that it made no sense?

-Make your way through the infected zone to the hospital. 

As I go through,  I loot empty apartments.  I then arrive at a apartment where it's owners are still there.  I send them to the hospital...and then loot the apartment...in front of them...without a word of complaint...in 2010...

The very next apartment has looters in it...who I'm allowed to scold for looting and get morality points for it...even though I've been looting...even in front of the owners...in 2010...

I quit a little while later.  I just couldn't take it any more.  I've played bad games,  I'm one of the couple dozen people who bought Battlecruiser 3000AD on release and didn't return it.  Mass Effect 2 was irredeemable.  10 years ago it would've gotten "Coaster of the year" left and right.  From terrible writing to terrible implementation to terrible AI to terrible design decisions to the fact that it wasn't even an RPG even though it claimed the title.

[Onyx Jaguar]

How is Zeni-Max at all suffering?



Last time I checked Bioware and Bethesda are being rather consistant in selling ability, and EA isn't anywhere near THQ status.



And I could not follow you at all in regards to ME 2

[Saibh]

Ayleus wrote...

I'm sorry to bring up the word, but if Saibh doesn't embody the very definition of a crusading fanboy, then I don't know what does. Coming into negative threads about DA2 and battling for the side of EA's bioware. Look kid, buy your streamlined game and be happy. Your need to come in here and make these instigative comments is both revealing and sad. So many "Saibh friendly" threads and you choose the ones where you can argue and carry on worse than the ppl you war against. You're a child....and if you aren't by biological age, then you are mentally. I've seen you in other threads, and it's always the same do-no-wrong-bioware crap without ever listening or learning anything from what others have to say (especially bioware themselves ). Oh well, not everyone is a gem. I hope they close down this thread. Hell, do away with the whole damn forum....its a joke and so am I for thinking that voicing my concerns on this forum with other like minded core fans would matter in the slightest. DA franchise seems consolized probably never to turn back to its initial promise....although I'll keep my eye on it just in case even though it looks bleak.

Everyone, look! My very own personal troll! He's my first troll, you see.

Ooh, do tricks, do tricks! I'll feed ya, honey~

Modifié par Saibh, 11 août 2010 - 07:46 .

[Saibh]

Damusique wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Ayleus wrote...

Just to support the ray/greg works directly for EA theory.....

http://www.gamasutra...php?story=24227

"it was announced that BioWare co-founders Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk will head up EA's new RPG/MMO Group. Along with BioWare, it includes EA's other big MMO developer, Mythic Entertainment, which maintains Warhammer Online, Dark Age of Camelot, and Ultima Online."

Just thought it was interesting. I used to believe that ppl talking about EA owning bioware was just talk and that bioware had almost all control over their studios and EA was just the publisher.....apparently they do more than publish. Whoops

HURDUR EA is ma BFF's they not evil and force respected companies to make **** games

Am I missing something?

Reading between the lines

So, uh, you didn't like DAO? Cause, you know, that one was made under the EA license. If you don't like DAO, and aren't going to like DA2, why are you here?

[Dave of Canada]

Saibh wrote...

Everyone, look! My very own personal troll! He's my first troll, you see.

Ooh, do tricks, do tricks! I'll feed ya, honey~

Forgotten.. about.. *sob* me?

*puts his head down, walks away into the rain*

Yesterday,

All my troubles seemed so far away,

Now it looks as though they're here to stay,

Oh, I believe in yesterday.

[Saibh]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Everyone, look! My very own personal troll! He's my first troll, you see.

Ooh, do tricks, do tricks! I'll feed ya, honey~

Forgotten.. about.. *sob* me?

*puts his head down, walks away into the rain*

Yesterday,

All my troubles seemed so far away,

Now it looks as though they're here to stay,

Oh, I believe in yesterday.

I've written you away from my life. You didn't keep me pleased, Dave. I need a real troll. Me and Ayleus will be good together. Just...forget we ever happened.

Modifié par Saibh, 11 août 2010 - 07:54 .

[Dave of Canada]

Saibh wrote...

I've written you away from my life. You didn't keep me pleased, Dave. I need a real troll. Me and Ayleus will be good together. Just...forget we ever happened.

i'vge alreadgy started drrinking, thank ioyu verty muchas.'

that it, qi'm eswearing odff forum women.

[SirOccam]

Gatt9 wrote...

If you assert that ME2's writing was bad, then that's using it objectively, even though it is subjective. If I ask for elaboration, that doesn't mean I think you can't have that opinion, but I want to know why. If you refuse to elaborate, but keep using it as a basis for other arguments, then you're still using it objectively.

It's not really an assertion or a matter of opinion,  it's really fact.  Examples....

-One of our strongest ships captained by our hero went down,  but ten people were missing,  go to it's site and search for them!

Turns out,  those ten highly trained professionals on one of the fleets premiere ships thought the best thing to do in a firefight was hide in a box,  even when the evacuation order was given.  Then the highly trained recovery team couldn't figure out how to open said boxes and look inside.

Really?  Or was it just bad design and scripting that lead to a fedex mission where people just decided to hide things in boxes despite the fact that it made no sense?

I have no idea what you're referring to here. At first it sounds like returning to the Normandy's crash site, but I don't recall anything about finding 10 people.

Regardless, you not liking the writing in the game does not mean the writing is objectively bad for everyone. I thought most of the writing was fine. Not stellar, certainly, but more than decent. Some of it was even...dare I say it...quite good. In my opinion, that is.

-Make your way through the infected zone to the hospital. 

As I go through,  I loot empty apartments.  I then arrive at a apartment where it's owners are still there.  I send them to the hospital...and then loot the apartment...in front of them...without a word of complaint...in 2010...

The very next apartment has looters in it...who I'm allowed to scold for looting and get morality points for it...even though I've been looting...even in front of the owners...in 2010...

Mordin's recruitment mission, I assume? How does that indicate bad writing? It has nothing to do with writing, and besides, you can do the exact same thing in DAO and *countless* other RPGs.

I quit a little while later.  I just couldn't take it any more.  I've played bad games,  I'm one of the couple dozen people who bought Battlecruiser 3000AD on release and didn't return it.  Mass Effect 2 was irredeemable.  10 years ago it would've gotten "Coaster of the year" left and right.  From terrible writing to terrible implementation to terrible AI to terrible design decisions to the fact that it wasn't even an RPG even though it claimed the title.

Another "fact." How is it not an RPG? You play a role, do you not? And it is a game?

Modifié par SirOccam, 11 août 2010 - 08:23 .

[Damusique]

Saibh wrote...

Damusique wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Ayleus wrote...

Just to support the ray/greg works directly for EA theory.....

http://www.gamasutra...php?story=24227

"it was announced that BioWare co-founders Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk will head up EA's new RPG/MMO Group. Along with BioWare, it includes EA's other big MMO developer, Mythic Entertainment, which maintains Warhammer Online, Dark Age of Camelot, and Ultima Online."

Just thought it was interesting. I used to believe that ppl talking about EA owning bioware was just talk and that bioware had almost all control over their studios and EA was just the publisher.....apparently they do more than publish. Whoops

HURDUR EA is ma BFF's they not evil and force respected companies to make **** games

Am I missing something?

Reading between the lines

So, uh, you didn't like DAO? Cause, you know, that one was made under the EA license. If you don't like DAO, and aren't going to like DA2, why are you here?

It's damn obvious EA did not have as much as a hand in DA:Origins as they now have in DA 2....

EA: Hmmm that Dragon Age sold well...best milk that franchise before the fanboys get over it! Bioware a sequel on the double *whip crack*

Bioware: Yes masters but these quality RPG's they take time.

EA : WHAT ?!?! ME2 sold well just do it like that!! 

Bioware: Actually we are trying to make this a seperate style, a call back to the cRPGs of old. So if we can ju-

EA: MONEY NOAW !!!

[taine]

Saibh wrote...

Ayleus wrote...

I'm sorry to bring up the word, but if Saibh doesn't embody the very definition of a crusading fanboy, then I don't know what does. Coming into negative threads about DA2 and battling for the side of EA's bioware. Look kid, buy your streamlined game and be happy. Your need to come in here and make these instigative comments is both revealing and sad. So many "Saibh friendly" threads and you choose the ones where you can argue and carry on worse than the ppl you war against. You're a child....and if you aren't by biological age, then you are mentally. I've seen you in other threads, and it's always the same do-no-wrong-bioware crap without ever listening or learning anything from what others have to say (especially bioware themselves ). Oh well, not everyone is a gem. I hope they close down this thread. Hell, do away with the whole damn forum....its a joke and so am I for thinking that voicing my concerns on this forum with other like minded core fans would matter in the slightest. DA franchise seems consolized probably never to turn back to its initial promise....although I'll keep my eye on it just in case even though it looks bleak.

Everyone, look! My very own personal troll! He's my first troll, you see.

Ooh, do tricks, do tricks! I'll feed ya, honey~

No no, not a troll, a flame-thrower.

Also, this thread has taken an unexpected turn for the better.

[Damusique]

SirOccam wrote...

Another "fact." How is it not an RPG? You play a role, do you not? And it is a game?

This is a **** argument. When I play COD MW2 I play the role of Soap, but that does not make it an RPG. I play Mario 64 am I not playing the role of Mario? Yet that is not an RPG.

[Saibh]

Damusique wrote...

It's damn obvious EA did not have as much as a hand in DA:Origins as they now have in DA 2....

You know this, because...?

Ah, that's right.

Psychics.

I forgot, the board is full of 'em.

You have no idea how much influence EA had over DAO or has now over DA2. If EA had wanted something removed or changed from DAO to make it more "mainstream" so it'd sell better, guess what? They'd have gone ahead and done that. Evidently, they didn't. Look into your crystal ball again.

Modifié par Saibh, 11 août 2010 - 10:05 .

[Kenrae]

Saibh wrote...

Damusique wrote...

It's damn obvious EA did not have as much as a hand in DA:Origins as they now have in DA 2....

You know this, because...?

Maybe the fact that DAO was being developed some years before EA owned Bioware .

[SirOccam]

Damusique wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Another "fact." How is it not an RPG? You play a role, do you not? And it is a game?

This is a **** argument. When I play COD MW2 I play the role of Soap, but that does not make it an RPG. I play Mario 64 am I not playing the role of Mario? Yet that is not an RPG.

Well it depends on how you define "play a role." I think the defining factor is that you make decisions for these characters AS these characters. That's different than just playing a main character...you're not really taking on the role in that case. There has to be a certain amount of depth to the character beyond you simply controlling his or her movements.

Well regardless, how do YOU define the essence of what makes an RPG an RPG? And why isn't Mass Effect 2 one (if you agree with him on that point)? Even if you do agree that it's not an RPG, surely you don't actually agree with his assertion that this is a fact, and not an opinion?

[iTomes]

SirOccam wrote...

Damusique wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Another "fact." How is it not an RPG? You play a role, do you not? And it is a game?

This is a **** argument. When I play COD MW2 I play the role of Soap, but that does not make it an RPG. I play Mario 64 am I not playing the role of Mario? Yet that is not an RPG.

Well it depends on how you define "play a role." I think the defining factor is that you make decisions for these characters AS these characters. That's different than just playing a main character...you're not really taking on the role in that case. There has to be a certain amount of depth to the character beyond you simply controlling his or her movements.

Well regardless, how do YOU define the essence of what makes an RPG an RPG? And why isn't Mass Effect 2 one (if you agree with him on that point)? Even if you do agree that it's not an RPG, surely you don't actually agree with his assertion that this is a fact, and not an opinion?

Damusique, please be silent. considering that you dont get to play Soap for more then a few missions in MW2 youre argument really sucks. besides, i agree with SirOccam but id like to add: IMO the most important point is that you can define the personality of youre main character. if hes a nice guy or a badass or whatever, you decide. if you cant make choices for your character and cant chose dialog options or something like that, its not an rpg. if my character says "we must kill general shepherd" or "itsa meee, mariooo" without me giving me the choice if i actually want to do/say this. my characters in these games are predefined and, because of that, MW2 or the mario series are no rpgs.

[Damusique]

iTomes wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Damusique wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Another "fact." How is it not an RPG? You play a role, do you not? And it is a game?

This is a **** argument. When I play COD MW2 I play the role of Soap, but that does not make it an RPG. I play Mario 64 am I not playing the role of Mario? Yet that is not an RPG.

Well it depends on how you define "play a role." I think the defining factor is that you make decisions for these characters AS these characters. That's different than just playing a main character...you're not really taking on the role in that case. There has to be a certain amount of depth to the character beyond you simply controlling his or her movements.

Well regardless, how do YOU define the essence of what makes an RPG an RPG? And why isn't Mass Effect 2 one (if you agree with him on that point)? Even if you do agree that it's not an RPG, surely you don't actually agree with his assertion that this is a fact, and not an opinion?

Damusique, please be silent. considering that you dont get to play Soap for more then a few missions in MW2 youre argument really sucks. besides, i agree with SirOccam but id like to add: IMO the most important point is that you can define the personality of youre main character. if hes a nice guy or a badass or whatever, you decide. if you cant make choices for your character and cant chose dialog options or something like that, its not an rpg. if my character says "we must kill general shepherd" or "itsa meee, mariooo" without me giving me the choice if i actually want to do/say this. my characters in these games are predefined and, because of that, MW2 or the mario series are no rpgs.

Righhht because you have any idea what your Shepard is about to say when you click those one word answers <_<.

Anyway, the game Mass Effect 2 is a sort-of-RPG imo. This is because a key factor in RPG's is CHOICE. By this I do not just mean kill good cop/kill bad criminal, destroy base/keep base, I mean it in ALL aspects of the game. This includes having the ability to decide how to play your character, how to 'grow' your character (allocation of stats/talents), how to equip your character.

As Mass Effect does not effectively allow you to do many of these things, it does not make full RPG status.

On this: "If he's a nice guy or badass or whatever, you decide". Really? So you have never picked a response thinking you were going to be a nice guy, and it turns out you're just being an idiot? or a badass response and Shepard goes and delivers the line like an evil maniac? 

I should note that despite this, I really enjoyed ME1/2, but I enjoyed it as the action-nearly-rpg it is (the great movie-like thing it had going was awesome) , and I would like to be able to continue the Dragon Age franchise as the call back to cRPG's it was meant to be, not some ME with swords.

[Kenrae]

Damusique wrote...
Righhht because you have any idea what your Shepard is about to say when you click those one word answers <_<.

Actually, yes, it's always as I expected but more elaborated.

[Damusique]

Kenrae wrote...

Damusique wrote...
Righhht because you have any idea what your Shepard is about to say when you click those one word answers <_<.

Actually, yes, it's always as I expected but more elaborated.

Sovereign: "I am Sovereign" 

Wheel choice: Impossible!

Shepard: "Sovereign isn't just some reaper ship Saren found, it's an actual reaper!" 

Oh sweet so now im playing one of those guys who points out obvious **** as it is happening...BUT DA KEWL VOICES R WORTH IT!