424 réponses à ce sujet

[Divine Justinia V]

BomimoDK wrote...

VittoriaLandis wrote...

I don't mean to start anything, but can you stop saying "thank the consoles for this" or "thank the console players for that".

It's not at all like we've wrote a letter to EA/BioWare asking them to ruin your PC version.

/endrant+spam+ot

They can't help it, it's just their supperior intellect getting the better of them. I dunno. There is something about it, but not everything is due to the console market. It's a wonder that the PC version even Differs from the Console version at all. never happens anymore, except this game. yet here they are... making a fuss about it.

[Brockololly]

In Exile wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Forget what is console, or pc, or dumbed down, or outdated. This is about Bioware being generous to their audience and providing a multi-faceted experience, for both pc and console gamers. We are asking them to put in the extra effort. That means providing the broadest gaming experience possible: multiple views, a tool set, and total freedom with customizing your character and control schemes.

When you say broadest experience possible, you mean a special and distinct game for the PC than the consoles, with the consoles getting at worst a port of the game if not an entirely redesigned game, no?

Look - lambast Bioware for failing to design the game you want. Critize them for removing features or like. But keep the entitlement aside.

I don't think its entitlement at all- what I thought Slimgrin was saying was simply that if BioWare is going to bother with DA2 as a multiplatform game, they should make each version utilize the strengths of each platform. Make the 360 version best for the 360, the PS3 version utilize the strengths of the PS3 and make the PC version take advantage of the PC's strengths.

In the case of the PC, taking full advantage of it as a gaming platform means updating the toolset, keeping a meaningful isometric view and all of the features that were present in the PC version of Origins.

[FlamenDialis]

AlanC9 wrote...

relhart wrote...

I took his post as confirmation that the article was accurate.  

Huh? He said that there will be an iso view, just not as far out as the DA camera. And that some form of toolset has not been ruled out. (I'm betting paid DLC, myself)

So "accurate" isn't quite the term here.

Sorry Alan, but Mike did not say that there would be an iso-view for the pc. He did say that players would not be able to pull the camera as far back as was possible in DA:O, and he noted that he believed that the key aspect of the tactical experience was the ability to move the camera freely. Furthermore, he noted that no deciscions regarding the aforementioned aspects had been finalized.

"On the PC, however, we are still working with the camera to keep the key
elements of the tactical experience there. I was actually playtesting
some new camera code when Victor found me, in fact, so I can give you
the latest news on that front.

"While we likely won't pull as far
up as we did in DA:O, I have always felt that the key to tactical play
was actually freeing your camera from the character you're controlling
to issue precise orders, which is what we're tuning now. So, this means
you can still maneuver the camera around the battlefield and issue
orders from a remote location, just as you could in Origins."

Again, please note that Mike never states that iso will be maintained.

Some people are reading Mike's remarks with uncharacteristic and unwarranted optimism.

Numquam cede

Modifié par FlamenDialis, 09 août 2010 - 04:34 .

[Querne]

Nice, that Mike finally said the truth.
DA was made for PC and transferred to consoles. DA2 ist made for consoles and now they are trying to rescue some of the PC features without much financial affort, because they can´t afford to adjust both to their platform.
So DA:O was probably the last real PC RPG they made.
R.I.P.

Modifié par Querne, 09 août 2010 - 04:57 .

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...
I don't think its entitlement at all- what I thought Slimgrin was saying was simply that if BioWare is going to bother with DA2 as a multiplatform game, they should make each version utilize the strengths of each platform. Make the 360 version best for the 360, the PS3 version utilize the strengths of the PS3 and make the PC version take advantage of the PC's strengths.

It's absolutely entitlement. It's not about graphical capabilities, or even so much about the interface for the game they want to design being accomodated to the PC.

No, it's about a PC-special platform, with PC-special functionality. If Bioware does not provide isometric, they are betraying the PC.

I absolutely appreciate the anger over not taking advantage over a keyboard and mouse to accomodate a generic console controller scheme. If Bioware pushes down this road, I'd be as irate as anyone else.

Let's say that you're right, though. Bioware is failing to take advantage of the PC. How would the Witcher, who precisely do NOT make isometric, tactical gameplay at all relevant to their game and instead rely exclusively on WASD controls and point-and-click real-time action gameplay not do precisely what you accuse Bioware of doing?

My issue is with the blatant hypocrisy of the veneration.

In the case of the PC, taking full advantage of it as a gaming platform means updating the toolset, keeping a meaningful isometric view and all of the features that were present in the PC version of Origins.

A toolset is entirely independent from the game. That's absolutely entitlement, because you're demanding to be catered to do with a special design that isn't even related to the game itself, to create whatever content you want to enhance your particular version of the gaem.

[Querne]

In Exile wrote...

Let's say that you're right, though. Bioware is failing to take advantage of the PC. How would the Witcher, who precisely do NOT make isometric, tactical gameplay at all relevant to their game and instead rely exclusively on WASD controls and point-and-click real-time action gameplay not do precisely what you accuse Bioware of doing?

What has TW to do with it? Is that another Bioware title? Do you command a whole party there where you could NEED an tactical view? Was there a first part of TW where you could and now they get rid of it because of consoles? 
In every thread sooner you come out with TW even if it was about the weather. 

The logic behind "in TW it´s ok, so it must be ok for you here" is your very own.

Modifié par Querne, 09 août 2010 - 05:17 .

[In Exile]

Querne wrote...

What has TW to do with it? Is that another Bioware title? Do you command a whole party there where you could NEED an tactical view? Was there a first part of TW where you could and now they get rid of it because of consoles? 
In every thread sooner you come out with TW even if it was about the weather. 

The logic behind "in TW it´s ok, so it must be ok for you here" is your very own.

The Witcher debate started when someone posted that now only CD Projekt is producing RPGs for the PC. Which is nonsense, because by the very standard espoused on this forum, the Witcher dramatically lacks features that would make it an RPG. More to the point, the Witcher 2 is adding elements in the same way that DA2 is adding elements - the paraphrase, QTE. It already had a fixed protagonist and lacked a party. So this is a side conversation, but one that I particularly was debating, hence why it is relevant.

As a general point, why does it matter what Dragon Age was when we talk about whether or not Bioware is betraying the PC?

[Brockololly]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

Let's say that you're right, though. Bioware is failing to take advantage of the PC. How would the Witcher, who precisely do NOT make isometric, tactical gameplay at all relevant to their game and instead rely exclusively on WASD controls and point-and-click real-time action gameplay not do precisely what you accuse Bioware of doing?
[/quote]

Ummmm.. what about the Witcher? I guess I'm just sort of confused why that was brought up- the Witcher doesn't have party based tactical combat, so yeah, they don't really need the isometric view as much as a party based game like DAO or DA2 would.
[/quote]

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...

Ummmm.. what about the Witcher? I guess I'm just sort of confused why that was brought up- the Witcher doesn't have party based tactical combat, so yeah, they don't really need the isometric view as much as a party based game like DAO or DA2 would.

Someone else brought it up to venerate it as somehow saving the RPG genre, or that it was the "true" RPG left on the market geared to the PC.

But from a design standpoint, both the Witcher and its sequel are far closer to DA2 than to DA. So to praise a game for going in a different direction than DA2, when in fact it's quite similar to DA2 is just strange.

As for the general point re: entitlement, I stand by what I said.

We can speak of taking advantage of the PC versus not with regard to hardware. But design choices, like the type of gameplay we will have, has nothing to do with taking advantage of the platform and everything to do with the kind of game you want to design.

ETA: To speak plainly, all this Witcher stuff just comes off as a discussion between me ad QQNwizard. I assumed that slimgrin was refering to QQNwizard's reply to me since it was right underneath the post and related to how PC-centric the development was supposed to be for a multiplatform game.

I suppose I was mistaken in reading it that way.

Modifié par In Exile, 09 août 2010 - 05:32 .

[Biotic Budah]

I think it boiled down to which platform they sell the most games on with respect to all of this. I think they went console first, then PC from what was said in an earlier post by someone else.

[Ayleus]

Man, I've read this whole thread (and many others in and out of this forum) concerning all theses changes to DA2 and all I can say is....... *sigh* Ya know, no words can express my disappointment with this company. SO much promise to us "elite" PC RPG gamers with the "old school rpg" compromise that was DA:O (which I LOVED btw)...and now they ****** it all away for streamlined sales figures even though DA:O DID WELL ON PC!!!!! Bioware has sold their soul ppl (stupidly I might add). Its over. Money has reared its ugly influence and ruined another fine art franchise so that it can appeal to the masses. Mark my words.....when alot of money becomes within reach, even the most noblest of souls are corrupted. They don't care about your opinions PC elistists (and i refer to myself as well)...... they only care about their salaries as is all business especially when it gets too big for its britches.



I only hope that I am wrong in the end. Noone on this planet wishes this more than me. But i think I see it clear as day now....just as i saw it within the 1st hour of playing the consolized ME2. Sigh....I will probably end up pirating DA2 and not liking it....even though it's free . What a world huh fellas.

[Saibh]

Ayleus wrote...

Man, I've read this whole thread (and many others in and out of this forum) concerning all theses changes to DA2 and all I can say is....... *sigh* Ya know, no words can express my disappointment with this company. SO much promise to us "elite" PC RPG gamers with the "old school rpg" compromise that was DA:O (which I LOVED btw)...and now they ****** it all away for streamlined sales figures even though DA:O DID WELL ON PC!!!!! Bioware has sold their soul ppl (stupidly I might add). Its over. Money has reared its ugly influence and ruined another fine art franchise so that it can appeal to the masses. Mark my words.....when alot of money becomes within reach, even the most noblest of souls are corrupted. They don't care about your opinions PC elistists (and i refer to myself as well)...... they only care about their salaries as is all business especially when it gets too big for its britches.

I only hope that I am wrong in the end. Noone on this planet wishes this more than me. But i think I see it clear as day now....just as i saw it within the 1st hour of playing the consolized ME2. Sigh....I will probably end up pirating DA2 and not liking it....even though it's free . What a world huh fellas.

Yay, I get to suck on the lifesblood of a company yay!

You know, I was willing to forgive all the doom and gloom you were going on about, regardless of the fact you are utterly wrong and the devs took time out of their day (Victor Wachter even hunted Mike Laidlaw down because we were in full meltdown mode) to explain to us that things are not as dire as they seem, but you know? I think I'm going to take the "I'm a conniving thief" to completely disregard any legitimacy to your opinion.

I think your "I'm going to pirate because I don't like it" is an excuse to pirate anyway.

[Riona45]

Saibh wrote...
I think your "I'm going to pirate because I don't like it" is an excuse to pirate anyway.

Yeah, probably.  People who pirate can probably rationalize the pirating of any game.

[SDNcN]

Riona45 wrote...

Saibh wrote...
I think your "I'm going to pirate because I don't like it" is an excuse to pirate anyway.

Yeah, probably.  People who pirate can probably rationalize the pirating of any game.

I never really understand why people threaten developers with piracy anyways.
I just read:

"This game will be horrible because of X . . . I still plan on playing it though, but I'm not paying for it, so **** you I win."

Modifié par SDNcN, 09 août 2010 - 06:19 .

[TheMadCat]

SDNcN wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Saibh wrote...
I think your "I'm going to pirate because I don't like it" is an excuse to pirate anyway.

Yeah, probably.  People who pirate can probably rationalize the pirating of any game.

I never really understand why people threaten developers with piracy anyways.
I just read:

"This game will be horrible because of X . . . I still plan on playing it though, but I'm not paying for it, so **** you I win."

Unfortunatly they always win in the end.

And why is it people who say they're going to pirate a game not get a temp ban? I mean I've seen about a dozen various users talk about how they're going to pirate DA2. Isn't the discussion of piracy like the biggest sin on this board.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 09 août 2010 - 06:28 .

[joriandrake]

TheMadCat wrote...

SDNcN wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Saibh wrote...
I think your "I'm going to pirate because I don't like it" is an excuse to pirate anyway.

Yeah, probably.  People who pirate can probably rationalize the pirating of any game.

I never really understand why people threaten developers with piracy anyways.
I just read:

"This game will be horrible because of X . . . I still plan on playing it though, but I'm not paying for it, so **** you I win."

Unfortunatly they always win in the end.

And why is it people who say they're going to pirate a game not get a temp ban? I mean I've seen about a dozen various users talk about how they're going to pirate DA2. Isn't the discussion of piracy like the biggest sin on this board.

I just woke up, and read through the thread, where is anyone claiming here that he/she will pirate the game?

[TheMadCat]

joriandrake wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

SDNcN wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Saibh wrote...
I think your "I'm going to pirate because I don't like it" is an excuse to pirate anyway.

Yeah, probably.  People who pirate can probably rationalize the pirating of any game.

I never really understand why people threaten developers with piracy anyways.
I just read:

"This game will be horrible because of X . . . I still plan on playing it though, but I'm not paying for it, so **** you I win."

Unfortunatly they always win in the end.

And why is it people who say they're going to pirate a game not get a temp ban? I mean I've seen about a dozen various users talk about how they're going to pirate DA2. Isn't the discussion of piracy like the biggest sin on this board.

I just woke up, and read through the thread, where is anyone claiming here that he/she will pirate the game?

Here is a good start by Ayleus a few posts up...

.I will probably end up pirating DA2 and not liking it....even though it's free . What a world huh fellas.

And I've seen various people make this claim across various threads.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 09 août 2010 - 06:58 .

[SirOccam]

Ayleus wrote...

Man, I've read this whole thread (and many others in and out of this forum) concerning all theses changes to DA2 and all I can say is....... *sigh* Ya know, no words can express my disappointment with this company. SO much promise to us "elite" PC RPG gamers with the "old school rpg" compromise that was DA:O (which I LOVED btw)...and now they ****** it all away for streamlined sales figures even though DA:O DID WELL ON PC!!!!! Bioware has sold their soul ppl (stupidly I might add). Its over. Money has reared its ugly influence and ruined another fine art franchise so that it can appeal to the masses. Mark my words.....when alot of money becomes within reach, even the most noblest of souls are corrupted. They don't care about your opinions PC elistists (and i refer to myself as well)...... they only care about their salaries as is all business especially when it gets too big for its britches.

Wow. Such melodrama. "Even the most noblest of souls are corrupted?" Seriously? Because there may not be a top-down view or a toolset? One can only wonder at your reaction when something truly tragic happens.

I think the underlying problem with your argument is that you are confusing "not catering to my particular tastes" with "worse." Clearly, every change they make that you disagree with can be chalked up to forfeiting their souls in pursuit of the biggest paycheck. It couldn't be that what you like isn't always what's best, oh no, not that.

[Wyndham711]

DA:O was originally a PC exclusive game developed solely the PC in mind - later came the decision to port it on consoles. DA2 is a multiplatform game from the start, they have even stated that they don't have a lead platform at all. Especially with consoles being their biggest market these days, this will inevitably lead to a much more homogenized experience between all platforms. Putting in extra resources to create an isometric camera just for the PC crowd doesn't make sense businesswise for a truly multiplatform game.

[Ayleus]

LOL..... I love the console vs. PC arguement because you have the PC elitists (like me) who KNOW of the ways things can be and the consolers who KNOW of their way. It's a never ending battle. Both have truths....HOWEVER, it is TRUE ABSOLUTELY that the console experience is more limited (not story-based events necessarily mind you...just the tactical aspect) than PC.....sorry consoles, its a fact of life...like dying. I am a PC RPG enthusiast and I now know what is going on with Bioware. It's the same thing that is going on with many so called PC game companies these days....it's called the bottom line. NOTE to PC ENTHUSIASTS......the gig is up. The only way you are going to get a chance at your highly customizable, unique, excessively and intelligently thought out games is from small companies who have a lot to prove and can't count on fanboyism and mainstreaming to meet their bottom lines. They are the ones that will have the best probability of providing you with your unique, complex PC experiences. Just remember to support them financially. Its ok to pirate....just buy the damn game once they prove themselves. And don't be picky....you know what i mean.



Bioware seems (as of now) a lost cause. ME2 was a hint....and now DA2 seems to be following along the same lines.....mainstreaming for profit. It really is simple folks. Lore may remain mostly consistent, but streamlining is going to take away from the gameplay experience most definitely......even console gamers must agree....even though they may LIKE the changes to a more simplified form.



I must note that I hope to the powers that be that I am wrong. I am waiting (impatiently i might add) for some good news finally for this game. No more "new art design", "action based scheme", or even "concentration on console" crap....and believe me folks-o-thread, you probably will not be able to blame this recent revelation on "poor translation" as I've heard from alot of posters on this thread.



I wish all the best, and I hope that my comments are not seen as too hostile or ban worthy....we (me and other "PC RPG hardcorers") have our reasons for disappointment and even hatred because we really did make Bioware what they are....and it really does seem like they have abandon us for streamlining profits. Oh well, buck up PC'ers....its not over. There will be others. It just won't be the ppl we've come to depend on.

[TheMadCat]

Wyndham711 wrote...

DA:O was originally a PC exclusive game developed solely the PC in mind - later came the decision to port it on consoles. DA2 is a multiplatform game from the start, they have even stated that they don't have a lead platform at all. Especially with consoles being their biggest market these days, this will inevitably lead to a much more homogenized experience between all platforms. Putting in extra resources to create an isometric camera just for the PC crowd doesn't make sense businesswise for a truly multiplatform game.

Of course, but what I personally find a tad disappointing is how just 3 or 4 years ago this was a PC exclusive as you said, and this was the franchise BioWare touted that would resurrect the classic RPG on the PC and help bring the platform back to the forefront. Jump forward a few years, certain features which are trademarks of the classic RPG are being reworked for better compatibility with it's console brethren and they seem to be shifting their focus more towards the console market. 

It's business, I understand and accept that fact no problem and certainly won't hold a grudge against them for it as several others seem intent on doing. But that doesn't mean myself and any others can't see it as a bit disheartening at the same time.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 09 août 2010 - 07:27 .

[Saibh]

Ayleus wrote...

I wish all the best, and I hope that my comments are not seen as too hostile or ban worthy....we (me and other "PC RPG hardcorers") have our reasons for disappointment and even hatred because we really did make Bioware what they are....and it really does seem like they have abandon us for streamlining profits. Oh well, buck up PC'ers....its not over. There will be others. It just won't be the ppl we've come to depend on.

I said this once elsewhere to another, but exactly where do you come off calling yourself a "hardcore" PC gamer? Because you can't be pleased? Because you refuse to acknowledge there was any flaw with old-school RPGs? 

I don't think DAO and BG really resemble each other at all--no more than JE or KotOR resemble it, anyhow.

Modifié par Saibh, 09 août 2010 - 07:31 .

[Wyndham711]

TheMadCat wrote...


Of course, but what I personally find a tad disappointing is how just 3 or 4 years ago this was a PC exclusive as you said, and this was the franchise BioWare touted that would resurrect the classic RPG on the PC and help bring the platform back to the forefront. Jump forward a few years, certain features which are trademarks of the classic RPG are being reworked for better compatibility with it's console brethren and they seem to be shifting their focus more towards the console market. 

It's business, I understand and accept that fact no problem and certinaly won't hold a grudge against them. But that doesn't mean myself and any others can't see it as a bit disheartening at the same time.

Very true, I'm truly saddened by this development (not just in regards to BioWare but as a general trend in the industry) too. I wish so many of the old, great PC devs weren't so scared of the platform as they seem to be these days, resorting into routine ports at best, abandoning the platform completely at worst. They have had success on PC before, and some more tenacious ones are still having much success on it today.

[Gaxhung]

Maybe Bioware should just make console exclusive games from now on. I don't have PS3 or 360, but just to see all the whiners cry more, it would be worth it.

[Anarya]

Ayleus wrote...
A lot of words

How can you sit there and whine about the death of PC gaming and then say you're going to pirate DA2? Would you cater to people that are getting your product for free? YOU are the problem here.