424 réponses à ce sujet

[-Semper-]

AllThatJazz wrote...

And in the end (this is not a response to you, btw, but to the post above yours), it is irrelevant how rich these companies are, whether I approve of how rich they are, and whether piracy will significantly impact their profit margin or not. I have the right, as a consumer, to withhold my money from them,  to complain at the quality of the product they are offering if I find it not to my tastes (as people are doing here), even to take legal action if I feel strongly that I am being ripped off. Consumers can be an incredibly powerful group when enough feel the same way. This right does not extend to stealing. Ripping someone off because you feel ripped off makes not a right but two wrongs, as the saying goes.

thx for speaking to me personally...

yes, you have the rights and yes, piracy is still a crime - i never neglect that nor do i support stealing products! but piracy has not that impact on business as everybody claims. if someone want to proof me wrong then please show me some examples of firms which went dead only because of piracy - you won't find any

ps: even the holy church faked their reliques just to decoy visitors into their churches to earn money... they played with their belief and horribly fooled them.

[AllThatJazz]

-Semper- wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

And in the end (this is not a response to you, btw, but to the post above yours), it is irrelevant how rich these companies are, whether I approve of how rich they are, and whether piracy will significantly impact their profit margin or not. I have the right, as a consumer, to withhold my money from them,  to complain at the quality of the product they are offering if I find it not to my tastes (as people are doing here), even to take legal action if I feel strongly that I am being ripped off. Consumers can be an incredibly powerful group when enough feel the same way. This right does not extend to stealing. Ripping someone off because you feel ripped off makes not a right but two wrongs, as the saying goes.

thx for speaking to me personally...

yes, you have the rights and yes, piracy is still a crime - i never neglect that nor do i support stealing products! but piracy has not that impact on business as everybody claims. if someone want to proof me wrong then please show me some examples of firms which went dead only because of piracy - you won't find any

ps: even the holy church faked their reliques just to decoy visitors into their churches to earn money... they played with their belief and horribly fooled them.

Sorry, Semper - sheer laziness on my part . But like I said in my last post, whether they suffer as a result of piracy or not is not the point for me. I keep reneging on my promise to shut up, don't I. *sticks tape over mouth* Hmmmppppmmh mmmmmmmmp! 

[Saibh]

-Semper- wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

And in the end (this is not a response to you, btw, but to the post above yours), it is irrelevant how rich these companies are, whether I approve of how rich they are, and whether piracy will significantly impact their profit margin or not. I have the right, as a consumer, to withhold my money from them,  to complain at the quality of the product they are offering if I find it not to my tastes (as people are doing here), even to take legal action if I feel strongly that I am being ripped off. Consumers can be an incredibly powerful group when enough feel the same way. This right does not extend to stealing. Ripping someone off because you feel ripped off makes not a right but two wrongs, as the saying goes.

thx for speaking to me personally...

yes, you have the rights and yes, piracy is still a crime - i never neglect that nor do i support stealing products! but piracy has not that impact on business as everybody claims. if someone want to proof me wrong then please show me some examples of firms which went dead only because of piracy - you won't find any

ps: even the holy church faked their reliques just to decoy visitors into their churches to earn money... they played with their belief and horribly fooled them.

We can't present figures either way, but I think there's a more substantial argument that piracy hurts the business. In any case, it certainly doesn't encourage single-player PC games.

[-Semper-]

Saibh wrote...

We can't present figures either way, but I think there's a more substantial argument that piracy hurts the business. In any case, it certainly doesn't encourage single-player PC games.

yes, it hurts - but more in way of getting a splinter in one of your fingers. it's not like an amputation of a whole limb or chopping your head off.

normally in business every known company goes this route: they started small and delivered a successful product which earns them lots of dollars. they paid all their bills and there is plenty of money left to develope a sequel of that product. a sequel has to be superior in all aspects to gain the same success. to fulfill this task the company has to invent new technology and therefore has to hire a larger group of people which increases the bills significantly. over the years they grow larger and larger and slip to a point where they have to develope their product to reach masses, only to pay the bills and to earn money for advanced sequels. now monopolization strikes - it's easy as that. logical and taught by every business school.

if your product, your marketing, your customer support or your handling of money is bad you definitely pass out. it has nothing to do with piracy, if any this is just a tiny factor. to begin with that is why piracy comes to live. it's just a byproduct of successful products which drives a shadowy existence.

Modifié par -Semper-, 09 août 2010 - 11:09 .

[AllThatJazz]

MMMMmmmmmmmpph! *removes tape from mouth* But if it was all that inconsequential, why bother with anti-piracy software at all? It has to be a problem for smaller companies, if not the huge corporations.

[Ayleus]

I just want to make it known that I do NOT support piracy for the sake of only getting free stuff...... I support piracy as a challenge to developers to produce quality produces which I strongly believe will both satisfy hardcore and casual players alike if implemented properly.



Heck, all you have to do is have a couple of "automated level ups" (do you want fighter, rogue, or wizard character style) for players who don't give a crap about customization and then give us PC hardcore folk our enjoyment we found in the first game....which is proven by sales!!!



You can keep the story and events the same and just give a "hit enter" option to bi-pass dialogue if you want to for other "rush through players". There is no need to "3rd person, action-rpg" this franchise. THIS IS THE BIGGEST MISTAKE YOU WILL MAKE!!!!!!



you may say you aren't....but with all that I've heard so far (and I'm still TRYING to hold out hope), "don't ****** in my face and tell me it's raining" when you seem to have your priorities set bioware.



Look ppl....does it really take until the game is out and finished for you to go...."ah crap, this isn't what I expected." Speak now ppl.....this is your only chance. As I see it, I think i'm going to be banned for my opinions...no matter how valid they may be. Just wait for "more info" most will tell you.....well, when is it enough to make an opinion. I think we've reached that point to understand where this game is going. Guys and Gals, it will not get better unless you are willing to speak up and tell them in mass what is wrong with this picture!



AGAIN....please, I plead with you bioware to show me to be an ass. DAVID, MARY, ...art director guy....Darrah (sorry man, I don't remember the name exactly....many apologies), expose my conspiracy theories to be idiotic and unfounded. Tell me it will be alright. Yes, I'm a nerd....but I'm a nerd that has supported fully your company since the beginning except ME2. I want to be wrong here......believe me!!

*Sigh* ....it really feels like most ppl just don't care anymore....



(I'm sure I'll receive crap from this...."whiner", "PC A-Hole Ethusiast", etc.)



Bioware....I hold out hope. Give me something to believe in here......I'm loosing faith!!!!

[-Semper-]

AllThatJazz wrote...

MMMMmmmmmmmpph! *removes tape from mouth* But if it was all that inconsequential, why bother with anti-piracy software at all? It has to be a problem for smaller companies, if not the huge corporations.

because greed drives big companies crazy! they absolutely want to squeeze the last cent out of the market so they invented copy protection (not only in software business) to maximize their payout. but copy protection also hamrs their loyal customers which leads to a bad product somehow. especially this happens at the software market. copy protection is also available for cloths and books and so on but this will not harm the customers - as there are also no pr company whiners, but these products are also copied in masses! so they have to term a black sheep to calm down their customers. now look at the market and deep inside of you: seems like the pr was successful

smaller companies often try to be on par with the triple a blockbusters with their first strike but lacking in money, technology and manpower. they simply can't compete with these products, their products have to stand out with unknown features but often this aint not the case. the end of the story: the masses won't buy the product because it's overprized and tries to emulate a top title. now it lacks sales but is being copied in a small number and there is no money to pay the bills. to begin with this was bad business and not the pirate's fault alone, just a small factor.

Modifié par -Semper-, 09 août 2010 - 11:23 .

[Ayleus]

just so everyone knows...i'm done with my speeches. Let the cards fall where they may. Bioware......I'm trying to hold out hope. I'll cross my fingers .

[Saibh]

Ayleus wrote...

I just want to make it known that I do NOT support piracy for the sake of only getting free stuff...... I support piracy as a challenge to developers to produce quality produces which I strongly believe will both satisfy hardcore and casual players alike if implemented properly.

Seriously, you're just trying to justify yourself. It's not okay, it's never okay. Sometimes demos exist, sometimes they don't. Like Jazz said earlier, you don't eat an apple at the store to decide if you want apple pie.

[AllThatJazz]

-Semper- wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

MMMMmmmmmmmpph! *removes tape from mouth* But if it was all that inconsequential, why bother with anti-piracy software at all? It has to be a problem for smaller companies, if not the huge corporations.

because greed drives big companies crazy! they absolutely want to squeeze the last cent out of the market so they invented copy protection (not only in software business) to maximize their payout. but copy protection also hamrs their loyal customers which leads to a bad product somehow. especially this happens at the software market. copy protection is also available for cloths and books and so on but this will not harm the customers - as there are also no pr company whiners, but these products are also copied in masses! so they have to term a black sheep to calm down their customers. now look at the market and deep inside of you: seems like the pr was successful

And small independent companies? Where even just a few thousand extra sales can make the difference between being able to find a publisher for their next game or not? Why is it a surprise, therefore, when smaller developers allow themselves to be taken over by EA and the like? Because having more resources available means they can 'afford' a greater level of piracy, for one thing. And yet the end result is one that many people criticise and, in turn, use as an excuse to pirate further - the 'mass targeting',  'mainstreaming',  'dumbing down' or 'consolisation' of games, or whatever you want to call it. And yet some form of targeting to more than a niche crowd is the inevitable result of being a subsidiary - the powers that be want to target as many people as possible across as many platforms as possible, rather than merely catering to a relative few. In the end, the only proper way to support a game developer is to buy the product. Whether directly or indirectly,  piracy harms the industry.

[AllThatJazz]

Saibh wrote...

Ayleus wrote...

I just want to make it known that I do NOT support piracy for the sake of only getting free stuff...... I support piracy as a challenge to developers to produce quality produces which I strongly believe will both satisfy hardcore and casual players alike if implemented properly.

Seriously, you're just trying to justify yourself. It's not okay, it's never okay. Sometimes demos exist, sometimes they don't. Like Jazz said earlier, you don't eat an apple at the store to decide if you want apple pie.

Oooh, in a nutshell! 

[Kenrae]

Saibh wrote...

Ayleus wrote...
I just want to make it known that I do NOT support piracy for the sake of only getting free stuff...... I support piracy as a challenge to developers to produce quality produces which I strongly believe will both satisfy hardcore and casual players alike if implemented properly.

Seriously, you're just trying to justify yourself. It's not okay, it's never okay. Sometimes demos exist, sometimes they don't. Like Jazz said earlier, you don't eat an apple at the store to decide if you want apple pie.

I'm not going to discuss the matter at hand, so please don't take my sentence a being for or against piracy, but...

Eating an apple renders it useless. The equivalent would be having an apple-cloning machine.

[-Semper-]

AllThatJazz wrote...

And small independent companies? Where even just a few thousand extra sales can make the difference between being able to find a publisher for their next game or not? Why is it a surprise, therefore, when smaller developers allow themselves to be taken over by EA and the like? Because having more resources available means they can 'afford' a greater level of piracy, for one thing. And yet the end result is one that many people criticise and, in turn, use as an excuse to pirate further - the 'mass targeting',  'mainstreaming',  'dumbing down' or 'consolisation' of games, or whatever you want to call it. And yet some form of targeting to more than a niche crowd is the inevitable result of being a subsidiary - the powers that be want to target as many people as possible across as many platforms as possible, rather than merely catering to a relative few. In the end, the only proper way to support a game developer is to buy the product. Whether directly or indirectly,  piracy harms the industry.

as stated above:

-Semper- wrote...

smaller companies often try to be on par
with the triple a blockbusters with their first strike but lacking in
money, technology and manpower. they simply can't compete with these
products, their products have to stand out with unknown features but
often this aint not the case. the end of the story: the masses won't buy
the product because it's overprized and tries to emulate a top title.
now it lacks sales but is being copied in a small number and there is no
money to pay the bills. to begin with this was bad business and not the
pirate's fault alone, just a small factor.

it's also bad business in form of marketing. their indy game is well known within a small group of people. they can't afford the task developing for all the gaming platforms and they analyzed the market in a wrong way. but look at the creators of the witcher: this games was successful even without copy protection. look at bioware - there was a time where this company consists of only a few people. their marketing was right because there was no other competitor. look at deck13, a new german company, who build their games with the help of an open source engine. look at crytek with their huge international success - that was also a newly born developer and their game was pirated in masses. the same goes for piranha bytes and gothic.

there are many examples where piracy did not kill companies but not a single one the other route. it's always the fault of the developers/publishers and not everybody is born to run a company.

Modifié par -Semper-, 09 août 2010 - 11:48 .

[Saibh]

Kenrae wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Ayleus wrote...
I just want to make it known that I do NOT support piracy for the sake of only getting free stuff...... I support piracy as a challenge to developers to produce quality produces which I strongly believe will both satisfy hardcore and casual players alike if implemented properly.

Seriously, you're just trying to justify yourself. It's not okay, it's never okay. Sometimes demos exist, sometimes they don't. Like Jazz said earlier, you don't eat an apple at the store to decide if you want apple pie.

I'm not going to discuss the matter at hand, so please don't take my sentence a being for or against piracy, but...

Eating an apple renders it useless. The equivalent would be having an apple-cloning machine.

But buying the apple pie doesn't take away from the fact you stole from the store, does it?

[Rixxencaxx]

Pc gamers should'nt buy dao2

they don't deserve our attention neither our money



end of line

[-Semper-]

Saibh wrote...

But buying the apple pie doesn't take away from the fact you stole from the store, does it?

yes, but the loss of this product is in fact a loss of a selled copy because there is no pie to sell. software is bit different. it's like cloning the pie and this will indeed not end in a not sellable product.

[apoc_reg]

It seems every peice of information you read on this game is announcing another change for the worst.  And maybe Bioware will and are back tracking slightly on the mass efecterisation of DA2 but its obviously going to have a big effect on the PC version.

It makes me very sad! Its not like DAO didnt do well on PC! Oh well i'll just keep playing that

[Kenrae]

Saibh wrote...

Kenrae wrote...
I'm not going to discuss the matter at hand, so please don't take my sentence a being for or against piracy, but...

Eating an apple renders it useless. The equivalent would be having an apple-cloning machine.

But buying the apple pie doesn't take away from the fact you stole from the store, does it?

No, of course, but that's not what we're talking about. It's just a semantic discussión on my part, not a moral one. Software piracy (I'm talking about personal copies, not buying it from someone who has pirated it) isn't theft, which doesn't mean it isn't bad. Both killing and robbing are ilegal but everybody agrees they're two different concepts.

And we're going quite off-topic with this discussion, I'll leave it at that.

[AllThatJazz]

 Piracy might not be the defining factor in why an Indy company goes out of business/gets bought out, but I believe it is a factor. And the bigger you are, the more of a hit you can afford to take, wherever that hit comes from. I don't have a degree in Economics or what have you, but it seems like common sense? Gah, look, in the end stealing is stealing is stealing is stealing. Regardless of any reasons (bar survival - no-one's family member is going to starve to death/die of a horrible disease without a nicked copy of DA, right? ) it's not okay.

I have to log off now, I need lunch. x

[Kenrae]

apoc_reg wrote...

It seems every peice of information you read on this game is announcing another change for the worst.  And maybe Bioware will and are back tracking slightly on the mass efecterisation of DA2 but its obviously going to have a big effect on the PC version.

It makes me very sad! Its not like DAO didnt do well on PC! Oh well i'll just keep playing that

As a friend of mine told me, it's called "damage control". Politicians do it constantly.

If you have a bunch of negative information, hand them out one after another. Give the people some time to accept them, let the anger calm down, then give out the next one. In the end, people won't remember the general picture, only the last couple of bad news.

[-Semper-]

AllThatJazz wrote...

 Piracy might not be the defining factor in why an Indy company goes out of business/gets bought out, but I believe it is a factor.

as i stated it is - but it will never destroy a company or the whole gaming business. it's simply a byproduct and has not the power so many believe because they are taught so.

on the other hand: successful indy developers should release their first games for free funded through commercials. they should develope for iphone and let apple do the publishing. there are so many ways to keep your bills relatively small if there is no contract with a big publisher because your idea simply was not good enough or doesn't fit the publishers sense of gaming. nowadays it's somehow harder to strike into the market, at the same time there are open source engines and tons of hobbyists creating stunning stuff.

[Dragonite]

JoePinasi1989 wrote...

What a tired and convoluted discussion.

*And no, I am not required to have anythin' useful to add. NOTHING said here has been useful!

Yes, you are absolutely right.

[In Exile]

Xoanon69 wrote...

If you want to blame someone then blame Bioware. They are the ones who for years have been stringing people along with the promise that DA would be the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate and the PC RPG's of old, and yet after the release of only the first game in the franchise they do a complete U-turn and make it abundantly clear that the series is now being developed for the consoles.

Did you follow the development of DA?

Do you remember what everyone said about it compared to BG? Let me remind you:

They said it was dumbed down because of the party inventory, the heavy capacity to carry 70+ different items and to stack items, the fact that the combat was MMO-like, the fact we did not get statistics in the ability descrption, the fact that we could not attack anyone, the fact we lacked night/day cycles, the fact that we had these ''BS'' origin stories, which removed roleplay by not allowing you to create whatever character you wanted....

The list goes on. DA was absolute lambasted for not being BG when it came out. Yet now these same features are being defended.

The reality is that insofar as BG is concerned, people want an identical game. The fact Bioware did not produce and was never going to produce the same game is absolutely lost on that crowd.

I'm not terribly surprisd myself.  The writing was on the wall even before the first game came out when they gave PC gamers the finger by announcing that even though the game was finished they were going to delay the release for months whilst they worked on a console version.

The writing was on the wall when Bioware produced KoTOR, Jade Empire and Mass Effect in quick succession after NWN. They switched their design philosophy and key element focus half a decade ago, but no one apparently wanted to see Bioware for what they were. So they do a throwback game in DA and suddenly this is a fundamental betrayal.

[In Exile]

-Semper- wrote...

on the other hand: successful indy developers should release their first games for free funded through commercials. they should develope for iphone and let apple do the publishing. there are so many ways to keep your bills relatively small if there is no contract with a big publisher because your idea simply was not good enough or doesn't fit the publishers sense of gaming. nowadays it's somehow harder to strike into the market, at the same time there are open source engines and tons of hobbyists creating stunning stuff.

The issue is that you're expecting gamers to take to these free-funded and ad infested free games that these indie developers would release for non-gaming centered platforms like the iPhone.

While there may well be a lot of hobbyist that are created low-tech games, that is very different from a company that has to pay bills and salaries for a small group of people. Even if you design a game for almost nothing, with a team of 4 people, to have even a decent living relative to the industry you'd need a budget of 200k per year, not counting equipment, etc.