477 réponses à ce sujet

[captain.subtle]

jln.francisco wrote...

you're welcome to have the last word.

Assuming its directed towards me, "Thank you!"

[Everwarden]

Heavenblade wrote...

My Hawkes Super-Chantry would be 100% more awesome and 100% less terrible than the current chantry.

"Magic is awesome, everyone should learn it even if they cannot practice it!" would be the first command. My chantry would teach children all kinds of practical things, such as how to swing a sword, make healing poultices and curative medicines, seduce qunari women, the basics underlying magic, etc.

The second command would be "The Followers of Andraste are no fun, and thus should be punished in the fashion of their false goddess." Burned alive with spells and then skewered by my Super-Templars, the militant arm of my Super-Chantry. Becoming a Super-Templar has very strict requirements.

The third command would be "Cookies are good. A baker who never bakes cookies should be stripped of his oven and sent to work in the salt mines."

That's all for now. Prophet Hawke will come up with more as he gets bored.

BY THE MAKER! What a FANTASTIC idea! You might well be the Martin Luther of the Dragon Age world! I would follow you, great prophet!

[tmp7704]

jln.francisco wrote...

The thing is though, they could be right.

Or they could be making it up as they go along. There's no way to tell so for them to use this as an excuse to emprison an entire population is beyond reprehensible.

I think if it was pure conjecture, the Tevinter mages would be first to point out that an attempt to enter the Golden City has never happened etc. At least some of it must base on facts, then. Also, i don't see that particular event used as excuse to imprison. It is more a case of remembering what the Tevinter Imperium stood for as the whole -- it is a solid example of what happens when the mages are actually given free hand to do as they please. The magic was used to both rule and oppress the man, until eventually people said enough. What you witness in present Thedas is still leftover of that backlash, but the mages only have themselves*, their hubris and the way they used to treat the common men to blame for it.

*) or more precisely other mages

Modifié par tmp7704, 12 août 2010 - 04:10 .

[captain.subtle]

tmp7704 wrote...

I think if it was pure conjecture, the Tevinter mages would be first to point out that an attempt to enter the Golden City has never happened etc. At least some of it must base on facts, then. Also, i don't see that particular event used as excuse to imprison. It is more a case of remembering what the Tevinter Imperium stood for as the whole -- it is a solid example of what happens when the mages are actually given free hand to do as they please. The magic was used to both rule and oppress the man, until eventually people said enough. What you witness in present Thedas is still leftover of that backlash, but the mages only have themselves*, their hubris and the way they used to treat the common men to blame for it.

*) or more precisely other mages

I am NOT suggesting ANYTHING,.... Just diverting your attention to this thread. Do read the dev quotes if you get the time.... Its fun to see how David manages to evade the actual issue and still drop hints.

Modifié par captain.subtle, 12 août 2010 - 04:42 .

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

The circles effectively function as prisons so there's naturally going to be friction between prisoners and guards. Stanford prison experiment has explored that, to rather disturbing conclusions. I don't really know how avoidable it is, this isn't my area of experience.

Especially when said guards love to murder the prisoners, according to a particular guard named Cullen...

tmp7704 wrote...

I point out mages can do that, yes. How would the Uldred's disaster end if it wasn't for player's timely arrival? Either in circle getting completely wiped or in the abominations breaking out to rampage free through the country adding to the Blight rather than helping to stop it.

Considering that the templars didn't do anything, and a mage Warden can end up resolving the problem, it shows that the templars are inept and unnecessary. Probably the reason why there's a Magi boon avaliable at the end of Origins...

tmp7704 wrote...

The thing is, while most mages are reasonable and willing to do the good things, it only takes few who don't to turn things upside down and any mage can become one of such few, even despite their own will. This is a huge risk and we don't really know how many abominations the templars do cut down before they get out of hand. (or in case of maleficarum, after they get out of hand)

Well, a human like Vaughan abused his authority and raped elven women. I guess under your strict guidelines, that's a cause for removing all humans from Ferelden because they've proven time and again to be unable to harm elves.

tmp7704 wrote...

I can't say i've experienced cases of preaching hatred towards mages from the Chantry when playing non-mage characters, that i can remember. Could you give some examples to jog my memory?

Yes, because forcing people to be in a literal prison, turning them into slaves, ingraining people to hate you because of what the Tevinters did, and stealing your children from you are signs of freedom, right? You mean mages can't have a title, can't leave the tower, get automatically killed even if they're runaway children, are depised, all because people love them? I'm guessing the mistrust and the whole "locked in a prison in the middle of nowhere" because there's no hatred towards mages? I guess when Anora told me a mage cannot become King, that was simply because the Chantry preaches tolerance and love for mages?

tmp7704 wrote...

It's made rather clear in the game there's no clear "universal truth" version of what exactly happened regarding the Dales. It's also worth noting the timeline specifies the exalted march on the Dales was called after the elves attacked and pillaged some nearby human towns, not the other way around. In any case, i'm not sure if it has much to do with the issue of mage treatment.

Yeah, the fact that Orlais has that little problem taking over other nations like the Anderfels and Ferelden must be a huge red herring that the same thing didn't happen to the Dales... Sure...

tmp7704 wrote...

There isn't much i can say regarding this -- yes, there's obvious difference between these two. Having the mages imprisoned ensures these who get taken over by a demon or simply get illusions of grandeur can be kept away from population they could harm through their actions. The same mage being free can pose much more danger, and having been instructed how magic works and/or being told it's bad to be bad isn't going to do much for these who for one reason or another decide to be above such trivialities. You can only reason with reasonable people and being a mage isn't guarantee of automagically being perfectly reasonable.

Or, a sensible person might come up with the solution to actually train mages properly without mistreating them, killing them, or removing their souls and turning them into slaves. Without any feelings of resentment, they are less likely to lash out or make deals with demons in order to survive against templars trying to kill them. Just a guess...

tmp7704 wrote...

My point was, we see very small glimpse of the Dalish, so i wouldn't be quick to extrapolate such little info on "abominations don't happen to the dalish, ever". And yes, i'm referencing a Dalish keeper who got so blinded by racial hatred he wouldn't even realise he's putting their own folk in danger exacting his revenge, and another keeper who was also too dumb to see the truth but quick to jump to conclusions. In other words, being a mage doesn't prevent the person from acting stupid especially when under strong emotions, but them being the mage means consequences of their stupidity are far more drastic than what a stupid regular person can do.

First, Velanna wasn't a Keeper, she was a First, and her actions were condemned by the Keeper.

Also, her people were enslaved and two of their homelands were destroyed by humans they helped free from slavery, so I'm guessing she wasn't exactly trustful when she found human weapons lying inside the corpses of the Dalish elves who were with her. Considering that the templar Cullen admits that templars enjoy killing mages, I'm guessing Velanna isn't the only one who does stupid things. Considering that the templars have been doing stupid things for over 700 years, I'm guessing the consequences of their stupidity are a bit more drastic, especially since they lord over the mages throughout Thedas.

tmp7704 wrote...

You know, using your own argument from just before "we don't see any rites" in the game, does it mean not one such thing has happened?

But the obvious siliness of this argument aside, the point was, that's 2 keepers out of 3 we get to meet, and in just 1-2 years too. If that was to be treated as sample of how things are on average, then just think how much mess and grief such things possibly cause to the population, repeated over course of these same 700 years you mention?

That's funny, it sounded like you made supporting imprisoning innocent people because tends to result in them revolting sounded to me like you were failing to establish any substantial proof that having mage-hating, drug abusing soldiers watching over innocent men, women and children and treating them with disdain did anything but cause trouble. Let's see... in your POV, treating people like garbage and slaves is okay because a system that systematically wipes out magical information (like Morrigan's shapeshifting abilities that even a learned student of the arcane arts knows nothing about) and coming from a nation that tends to try to "take over" over nations (like the Anderfels, the Dales, Ferelden, the Free Marches, ect.) are a better alternative than freedom?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 12 août 2010 - 04:50 .

[tmp7704]

captain.subtle wrote...

I am NOT suggesting ANYTHING,.... Just diverting your attention to this thread. Do read the dev quotes if you get the time.... Its fun to see how David manages to evade the actual issue and still drop hints.

Do you mean that bit where he talks of breaking rules of magic and how such act would most likely be a big event whenever it happened? The implications of that are... interesting.

[captain.subtle]

yup. To clarify MY opinion he meant the assault on the Golden city. The golden city was GOLDEN in fact earlier (he said that in an earlier post!).....

[Mr.snugglekill]

Well its black now no rasicam intended but why worry about the golden city now?!

[captain.subtle]

Mr.snugglekill wrote...

Well its black now no rasicam intended but why worry about the golden city now?!

Its fun to do so!

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that the templars didn't do anything, and a mage Warden can end up resolving the problem, it shows that the templars are inept and unnecessary. Probably the reason why there's a Magi boon avaliable at the end of Origins...

That's not really fair way to look at it. The templars did contain the abominations inside the tower until the Warden shows up. They are also awaiting instructions from Denerim and if it wasn't for player's arrival they'd eventually attempt to wipe out the circle after receiving the green light for that. But like all other factions in the game, they are subjects to the "time never advances and nothing changes without the player's actions" so yes, technically they 'never do anything' just like about anyone else in Ferelden. But that's a game warping the 'reality' of the setting, not the way things actually are.

Well, a human like Vaughan abused his authority and raped elven women. I guess under your strict guidelines, that's a cause for removing all humans from Ferelden because they've proven time and again to be unable to harm elves.

Under 'my strict guidelines' that's a case for being very careful about who gets handed the authority, and to try and have supervision and control mechanics in place. Incidentally, this is the basic reason we utilize systems like democracy rather than feudalism nowadays -- it's people's way to try and curb cases where irresponsible people get in positions where they could abuse power they're given. Of course, it doesn't work out well all the time but it's an attempt just the same. It's also why we employ police forces, gun control and other systems which aim to limit amount of damage an individual can cause, should they turn out to be irresponsible. As opposed to just handing free nukes to anyone who asks and then letting them run around as they please.

tmp7704 wrote...

I can't say i've experienced cases of preaching hatred towards mages from the Chantry when playing non-mage characters, that i can remember. Could you give some examples to jog my memory?

Yes, because forcing people to be in a literal prison, turning them into slaves, ingraining people to hate you because of what the Tevinters did, and stealing your children from you are signs of freedom, right? You mean mages can't have a title, can't leave the tower, get automatically killed even if they're runaway children, are depised, all because people love them? I'm guessing the mistrust and the whole "locked in a prison in the middle of nowhere" because there's no hatred towards mages? I guess when Anora told me a mage cannot become King, that was simply because the Chantry preaches tolerance and love for mages?

I think my question was pretty specific. If you can't answer it straight, does it mean my impression was right and there isn't actually any cases of "ingraining people to hate you" to be experienced in the game? Mistrust out of valid reasons can be quite different thing from hate, but you seem to extrapolate the former into the latter.

Yeah, the fact that Orlais has that little problem taking over other nations like the Anderfels and Ferelden must be a huge red herring that the same thing didn't happen to the Dales... Sure...

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. The timeline is about as objective source of info as you can get it regarding the settings since it exists "outside the settings" so to speak. Consider how it doesn't try to make it sound like "Ferelden attacked first" when it came to invasion of that nation, yet when it comes to Dales you'll presume it's lying simply because it doesn't suit your personal interpretation of the events?

Or, a sensible person might come up with the solution to actually train mages properly without mistreating them, killing them, or removing their souls and turning them into slaves. Without any feelings of resentment, they are less likely to lash out or make deals with demons in order to survive against templars trying to kill them. Just a guess...

That's again ignoring the cases of individuals who are going to see the very existence of their power as excuse to exercise it at the expense of others. Resentment is just one trigger for people's behaviour. Others can simply get it in their heads they deserve to do as they please because they aren't like these magic-lacking peasants. Or just act out of resentment caused by individual, accidental experiences. We all lose out tempers at one point or another. Except our outbursts rarely end with say, burning down half of the city because in your anger you tried to set the other guy on fire.

First, Velanna wasn't a Keeper, she was a First, and her actions were condemned by the Keeper.

The Keeper's first is a person trained to take over after the Keeper dies. She's certainly old enough to have received full training as far as handling her powers is concerned. And that her actions were condemned isn't exactly a point -- having one mage disapprove some other mage is abusing the power isn't any helpful to people who are on the receiving end of said abuse. Unless that other mage maybe actually steps in rather than just wag their finger. The point being that some of mages who were never part of the Circle etc still choose to use their powers to wreak havoc. Something that'd supposedly not happen if only they received proper training without mistreatment etc.

Also, her people were enslaved and two of their homelands were destroyed by humans they helped free from slavery, so I'm guessing she wasn't exactly trustful when she found human weapons lying inside the corpses of the Dalish elves who were with her.

Certainly, events which happened hundreds of years ago and which she was never personally the target of are good enough excuse to ignore the obvious question why would anyone choose to leave perfectly good weapons conveniently placed in manner to point to them as the culprits. Especially when the forest is otherwise littered with the darkspawn. And it's also perfectly fine to go from that to murdering willy-nilly random people who had nothing to do with these events but just happen to pass by.

If you are so quick to accept her attitude towards humans and the way she goes about handling these events as valid, why do you think her own clan didn't? Despite they also "had their peopel enslaved and homelands destroyed etc"?

Let's see... in your POV, treating people like garbage and slaves is okay because a system that systematically wipes out magical information (like Morrigan's shapeshifting abilities that even a learned student of the arcane arts knows nothing about) and coming from a nation that tends to try to "take over" over nations (like the Anderfels, the Dales, Ferelden, the Free Marches, ect.) are a better alternative than freedom?

In my point of view magic is a 50/50 thing -- it can be used for good, but there's also evidence of far too many mages who abuse it at the expense of others, and that's even without getting into the whole demon possession deal. Given this, it's very much a case of "good of many outweights the good of a few" and as such yes, a lesser evil. Would it be nice to be able to allow the mages who would never possibly abuse their power and who would never possibly get possessed and who would never lose their cool... to go free? Sure. But as long as it's not possible to determine these from all others who wouldn't meet these conditions, that's very much a pipe dream. "Freedom for all mages" sounds nice, but it does come with a heavy price/risk, one you keep to either ignore or pretend it doesn't exist.

Modifié par tmp7704, 12 août 2010 - 06:36 .

[mione]

This is one aspect of DA2 I am most excited about learning more of. What ever decision is made Thedas will never be the same again.

[AlexXIV]

jln.francisco wrote...

The magic was used to both rule and oppress the man, until eventually people said enough. What you witness in present Thedas is still leftover of that backlash, but the mages only have themselves*, their hubris and the way they used to treat the common men to blame for it.

*) or more precisely other mages

And there my head goes. I had to click on this damn thread again.

Hehe, that's why you don't discuss with the Chantry. Just burn them.

[tmp7704]

jln.francisco wrote...

No that giant metal door contained the abominations. The Templars were cowering in fear like the worthless maggots they are.

In other news, a gun was sentenced for 20 years in prison for murder.

Gregoir even admits for all their posturing for all their shiny armor, the Templars were ready only for a single abomination. And there was at least a platoon sized force of Templars in the tower. If that many templars can only be relied upon to defeat a single abomination, it does not speak well for their order.

Or it gives an idea of scale of threat even a single abomination poses to anyone not protected by the power of being the protagonist (and apparently the only person in Thedas capable of using the healing and mana pots)

Stepping out of the game settings for a while of course that's what Gregoir will tell you. Wouldn't be much of a game if the player arrived to the tower only to find the situation professionally handled, would it? Just like the Dalish are apparently incapable of fighting werewolves and dwarves can't do anything without outsider holding their hand.

pffft. i won't play this game. No thank you, I get enough of it in real life. I point out where magic is viewed as a curse, ect you reply 'well they're not exactly preaching genocide.

Like it or not, they in fact aren't or you would be able to provide actual cases where they do. Such is a risk of trying to paint the opposition more bloodthirsty than they actually are.

[AlexXIV]

tmp7704 wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

No that giant metal door contained the abominations. The Templars were cowering in fear like the worthless maggots they are.

In other news, a gun was sentenced for 20 years in prison for murder.

Gregoir even admits for all their posturing for all their shiny armor, the Templars were ready only for a single abomination. And there was at least a platoon sized force of Templars in the tower. If that many templars can only be relied upon to defeat a single abomination, it does not speak well for their order.

Or it gives an idea of scale of threat even a single abomination poses to anyone not protected by the power of being the protagonist (and apparently the only person in Thedas capable of using the healing and mana pots)

Stepping out of the game settings for a while of course that's what Gregoir will tell you. Wouldn't be much of a game if the player arrived to the tower only to find the situation professionally handled, would it? Just like the Dalish are apparently incapable of fighting werewolves and dwarves can't do anything without outsider holding their hand.

pffft. i won't play this game. No thank you, I get enough of it in real life. I point out where magic is viewed as a curse, ect you reply 'well they're not exactly preaching genocide.

Like it or not, they in fact aren't or you would be able to provide actual cases where they do. Such is a risk of trying to paint the opposition more bloodthirsty than they actually are.

Well if I didn't get it wrong, all magic-users are locked in the Circle tower where they have the choice to enter the fade to fight demons or get burned their emotions out from their head. And even if they pass they still can't go anywhere without some templars watching over them for the rest of their lifes.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]tmp7704 wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that the templars didn't do anything, and a mage Warden can end up resolving the problem, it shows that the templars are inept and unnecessary. Probably the reason why there's a Magi boon avaliable at the end of Origins...[/quote]

That's not really fair way to look at it. The templars did contain the abominations inside the tower until the Warden shows up. They are also awaiting instructions from Denerim and if it wasn't for player's arrival they'd eventually attempt to wipe out the circle after receiving the green light for that. But like all other factions in the game, they are subjects to the "time never advances and nothing changes without the player's actions" so yes, technically they 'never do anything' just like about anyone else in Ferelden. But that's a game warping the 'reality' of the setting, not the way things actually are. [/quote]

How is that not fair? They were inept, they couldn't handle the abominations, and all of Ferelden would have come under siege because they couldn't defeat them and instead ran away. You can't argue that templars are necessary and then say I'm not being fair when I mention how they couldn't do their jobs in resolving the threat of the abominations. Game mechanics don't change the story of templars not being capable of doing the job. Game mechanics don't explain how templars were handled their butts and needed outsiders to resolve the problem they couldn't, since the templars did nothing and the Warden contained the threat of the abominations. In regards of time, if the Warden didn't defeat the abominations, then the templars would have been overwhelmed and it might have plunged all of Ferelden into chaos and destruction because the templars weren't up to the task of defeating the abominations.

[quote]tmp7704 wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Yes, because forcing people to be in a literal prison, turning them into slaves, ingraining people to hate you because of what the Tevinters did, and stealing your children from you are signs of freedom, right? You mean mages can't have a title, can't leave the tower, get automatically killed even if they're runaway children, are depised, all because people love them? I'm guessing the mistrust and the whole "locked in a prison in the middle of nowhere" because there's no hatred towards mages? I guess when Anora told me a mage cannot become King, that was simply because the Chantry preaches tolerance and love for mages? [/quote]

I think my question was pretty specific. If you can't answer it straight, does it mean my impression was right and there isn't actually any cases of "ingraining people to hate you" to be experienced in the game? Mistrust out of valid reasons can be quite different thing from hate, but you seem to extrapolate the former into the latter. [/quote]

Since you asked for specific... Jowan mentions that the reason the Arlessa Isolde didn't want anyone knowing that Connor was a mage was because she was a religious woman as it was an embarassment to have a son as a mage. Considering Knight-Commander Greagoir's comments about mages bringing the world to the brink of ruin, I'm guessing mistrust is the wrong word.

[quote]tmp7704 wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Yeah, the fact that Orlais has that little problem taking over other nations like the Anderfels and Ferelden must be a huge red herring that the same thing didn't happen to the Dales... Sure...   [/quote]

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. The timeline is about as objective source of info as you can get it regarding the settings since it exists "outside the settings" so to speak. Consider how it doesn't try to make it sound like "Ferelden attacked first" when it came to invasion of that nation, yet when it comes to Dales you'll presume it's lying simply because it doesn't suit your personal interpretation of the events? [/quote]

Considering that the Chantry spread its influence with its first Divine, Justinia I, and they took over territory besides Ferelden, like parts of the Free Marches and the Anderfels, you can call me doubtful as to their version of events of the "the Exalted March of the Dales."

[quote]tmp7704 wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Or, a sensible person might come up with the solution to actually train mages properly without mistreating them, killing them, or removing their souls and turning them into slaves. Without any feelings of resentment, they are less likely to lash out or make deals with demons in order to survive against templars trying to kill them. Just a guess... [/quote]

That's again ignoring the cases of individuals who are going to see the very existence of their power as excuse to exercise it at the expense of others. Resentment is just one trigger for people's behaviour. Others can simply get it in their heads they deserve to do as they please because they aren't like these magic-lacking peasants. Or just act out of resentment caused by individual, accidental experiences. We all lose out tempers at one point or another. Except our outbursts rarely end with say, burning down half of the city because in your anger you tried to set the other guy on fire. [/quote]

Odd, I thought you were ignoring the abuses committed by the templars who watch over the mages and that you continue to ignore that I'm not arguing that mages shouldn't be properly taught magic, I'm saying that mages should not be imprisoned because they have magical ability.

[quote]tmp7704 wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

First, Velanna wasn't a Keeper, she was a First, and her actions were condemned by the Keeper. [/quote]

The Keeper's first is a person trained to take over after the Keeper dies. She's certainly old enough to have received full training as far as handling her powers is concerned. And that her actions were condemned isn't exactly a point -- having one mage disapprove some other mage is abusing the power isn't any helpful to people who are on the receiving end of said abuse. Unless that other mage maybe actually steps in rather than just wag their finger. The point being that some of mages who were never part of the Circle etc still choose to use their powers to wreak havoc. Something that'd supposedly not happen if only they received proper training without mistreatment etc. [/quote]

So, what you're saying is that I'm correct: Velanan wasn't the Keeper. Her actions were crticized by the Keeper Ilshae. And she was responding to a group of humans who attacked them by trying to burn them out of the forest as she makes clear in Velanna's Exile.

[quote]tmp7704 wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, her people were enslaved and two of their homelands were destroyed by humans they helped free from slavery, so I'm guessing she wasn't exactly trustful when she found human weapons lying inside the corpses of the Dalish elves who were with her. [/quote]

Certainly, events which happened hundreds of years ago and which she was never personally the target of are good enough excuse to ignore the obvious question why would anyone choose to leave perfectly good weapons conveniently placed in manner to point to them as the culprits. Especially when the forest is otherwise littered with the darkspawn. And it's also perfectly fine to go from that to murdering willy-nilly random people who had nothing to do with these events but just happen to pass by.

If you are so quick to accept her attitude towards humans and the way she goes about handling these events as valid, why do you think her own clan didn't? Despite they also "had their peopel enslaved and homelands destroyed etc"? [/quote]

Yes, because as we all know events that happened in the past have absolutely no impact on what happens in the present. It isn't like the Dalish are homeless or the target of attacks by humans or anything like that...

I'm not excusing her actions, killing innocents isn't right, whether it's the humans who initially attacked the Dalish or Velanna responding out of anger because Seranni was kidnapped. However, your argument doesn't stack up to explain why mages should be imprisoned.

[quote]tmp7704 wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Let's see... in your POV, treating people like garbage and slaves is okay because a system that systematically wipes out magical information (like Morrigan's shapeshifting abilities that even a learned student of the arcane arts knows nothing about) and coming from a nation that tends to try to "take over" over nations (like the Anderfels, the Dales, Ferelden, the Free Marches, ect.) are a better alternative than freedom? [/quote]

In my point of view magic is a 50/50 thing -- it can be used for good, but there's also evidence of far too many mages who abuse it at the expense of others, and that's even without getting into the whole demon possession deal. Given this, it's very much a case of "good of many outweights the good of a few" and as such yes, a lesser evil. Would it be nice to be able to allow the mages who would never possibly abuse their power and who would never possibly get possessed and who would never lose their cool... to go free? Sure. But as long as it's not possible to determine these from all others who wouldn't meet these conditions, that's very much a pipe dream. "Freedom for all mages" sounds nice, but it does come with a heavy price/risk, one you keep to either ignore or pretend it doesn't exist.[/quote]

So rather than have mages properly instructed on magic, you think imprisonment is a better option? I don't agree. Mages are instrumental in stopping the Blights, helping invading forces (like the Chantry using them to stop the invading Qunari forces), healing others, and dealing with the darkspawn. There's no reason that they shouldn't be properly instructed without restorting to the vile methods of the templars and the Chantry. I hope DA2 deals with this issue.

[Daur]

I will be playing against the chantry in DA2 because my first character in DA:O (male human noble) within ten minutes of starting had a conversation with a priest. During said conversation a comment appeared that implied my character was atheist ( I am one in real life) so naturally I selected that one as it is a role playing game.....and then I get treated like a piece of crap for not buying into the fairy tales of the worshippers of a burnt woman!



I will most certainly enjoy my revenge

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

How is that not fair? They were inept, they couldn't handle the abominations, and all of Ferelden would have come under siege because they couldn't defeat them and instead ran away. You can't argue that templars are necessary and then say I'm not being fair when I mention how they couldn't do their jobs in resolving the threat of the abominations. Game mechanics don't change the story of templars not being capable of doing the job. Game mechanics don't explain how templars were handled their butts and needed outsiders to resolve the problem they couldn't, since the templars did nothing and the Warden contained the threat of the abominations. In regards of time, if the Warden didn't defeat the abominations, then the templars would have been overwhelmed and it might have plunged all of Ferelden into chaos and destruction because the templars weren't up to the task of defeating the abominations.

Very well, if you want to feign ignorance on how the setup of the game renders everyone but the player unable to act so that the player actually has something to do and demonstrate their own skills... we can play it your way. Going strictly by what the game shows you, the templars manage to keep the abominations inside the mage tower. That's what they're supposed to do and this is what they actually do. As the player you can spend literally years doing everything else but visit the mage tower, and you'll never see a single one getting out of the tower. This is hardly "ineptitude", "not doing anything" and "being unable to handle the situation". And your prediction how "the templars would get overwhelmed" is just that, a prediction which the actual game events don't support because it never happens even without the player coming to the tower.

Good luck explaining how that happens if the templars are supposedly incompetent and not doing anything (without invoking the game mechanics -- these, as you claim, don't explain these things)

Since you asked for specific... Jowan mentions that the reason the Arlessa Isolde didn't want anyone knowing that Connor was a mage was because she was a religious woman as it was an embarassment to have a son as a mage.

You can actually ask Isolde about her reasons to be so horrfied about her son having magic and she will tell you this:

Isolde: "Magic... runs in my family. The ones who had it were all terrible, sinful men. I didn't know what to do when I found out! (desperate, almost bursting into tears)"

she also states that her concern was her son would be taken away if it became public knowledge because "Eamon would only demand we do the right thing"

This doesn't seem to be organization-inspired hate but rather first-hand experience with mages in her own family, oddly enough.

Considering that the Chantry spread its influence with its first Divine, Justinia I, and they took over territory besides Ferelden, like parts of the Free Marches and the Anderfels, you can call me doubtful as to their version of events of the "the Exalted March of the Dales."

Again though, externally-published timeline isn't "their version of events". Or if it is, then why wouldn't it lie just the same about other conquests, trying to make it equally justified?

Odd, I thought you were ignoring the abuses committed by the templars who watch over the mages and that you continue to ignore that I'm not arguing that mages shouldn't be properly taught magic, I'm saying that mages should not be imprisoned because they have magical ability.

Well, that's one way not to answer the question. I have explained in the very part you were replying to that i don't find the idea of "teaching mages properly" to be good replacement for containment and elaborated on my reasons for that. I can only take it you are under belief that if only "mages are taught properly" then none of them would ever abuse their power, or fail to resist attempt of a demon to take them over, etc?

So, what you're saying is that I'm correct: Velanan wasn't the Keeper. Her actions were crticized by the Keeper Ilshae. And she was responding to a group of humans who attacked them by trying to burn them out of the forest as she makes clear in Velanna's Exile.

No, what i'm saying is, Velanna is a mage who despite never being held prisoner in a circle and despite being "taught properly" by equally free and highly skilled mage, still uses the magic to harm people on large scale, even ones which had nothing to do with her supposed "reason", and she does it basing on wrong idea in the first place, and on prejudices she was criticized for.

In other words, she's doing the very thing you claim wouldn't ever happen if only the mages were allowed to be free and properly educated. Do you disagree with this?

I'm not excusing her actions, killing innocents isn't right, whether it's the humans who initially attacked the Dalish or Velanna responding out of anger because Seranni was kidnapped. However, your argument doesn't stack up to explain why mages should be imprisoned.

Let's see, one misguided Velanna was enough to cut off large province from supplies and bring it close to ruin. But you honestly don't see why there may be reluctance about having dozens equally powerful and potentially equally just misguided individuals (never mind ones who will choose to abuse their power because they consider it perfectly within their rights) roam free and do as they please without any supervision, when it can be otherwise relatively easily avoided?

So rather than have mages properly instructed on magic, you think imprisonment is a better option? I don't agree. Mages are instrumental in stopping the Blights, helping invading forces (like the Chantry using them to stop the invading Qunari forces), healing others, and dealing with the darkspawn. There's no reason that they shouldn't be properly instructed without restorting to the vile methods of the templars and the Chantry. I hope DA2 deals with this issue.

Again, how is "being properly instructed" supposed to prevent some mages from abusing their powers simply because they want to or because they snap in anger, or someone more cunning tricks them into it or for whatever reasons? We have people properly instructed on driving before they get their licenses too, it doesn't exactly eliminate "road rages" from happening daily, does it?

(and before you counter with "oh but we still don't prohibit people from driving" no we don't. But i reckon that's only because a single moron behind a wheel still wield way less destructive force than equally dumb mage. If every case of bad driving had potential to cause hundreds of casualties and took significant military force to bring down, you can bet few people were allowed to drive their own cars. Much like few people are allowed to legally own cannons and other similarly destructive equipment)

Modifié par tmp7704, 13 août 2010 - 01:05 .

[Solstice-x]

Replaying the game as my male city elf has made me realize exactly how evil you can get. I sold my cousin out for coin, now THAT is evil.

[tmp7704]

jln.francisco wrote...

No it isn't but even if it were, those doors seem perfectly capable of doing the job for them.

Yes, a most fortunate thing abominations are apparently too dumb to realize they could always just blow a hole in a wall or simply use a window.

The reason is simple. It's for fear mages might realize they aren't horrible repulsing creatures who have been cursed by the Maker himself and that they do not deserve to be imprisoned in so beastly a manner.

Most of the mages well realizes that -- there wouldn't be so many factions within the Circles with their own ideas how the mages should be handled if they really all believed they "deserve it" rather than recognize it's being done as precaution.
 

And what's to stop an arl's son from waltzing into a wedding celebration kidnapping half a dozen young women and trying to rape and murder them?

A pair of elves, apparently. Or just one elf with wine bottle.
 

Or what's to stop a very noble commander from obeying a direct order to abandon her king to the darkspawn?

Guts to stand up to obvious act of treason and willingness to take charge herself? Pity Cauthrien lacked that.

You really don't get how power works do you? I'll ask you again, how would you behave if you were drafted?

You do realize people get sentenced for war atrocities they commit and the "i was under orders" doesn't work as excuse in these cases, do you?

And if you are so well versed in how the power works, what reasons do you have to support creating more free room for abuse of said power when it can be actually prevented? That it already happens is hardly reason to add more fuel to this fire nor a justification for it, is it?

Modifié par tmp7704, 13 août 2010 - 01:56 .

[Riona45]

tmp7704 wrote...
I think my question was pretty specific. If you can't answer it straight, does it mean my impression was right and there isn't actually any cases of "ingraining people to hate you" to be experienced in the game?

Actually the mage origin introduces you to a self-hating mage.  Don't remember her name, but she had dark hair and you meet her in the tower chapel.  The dialogue with her strongly implies that she hates herself and her magic because of what the Chantry teaches about it.

EDIT:  Oh yeah, then there's what Jowan tells you about how his own family treated him when they discovered his magic.

PS:  By the way, are you aware that the devs have mentioned many times that the codex entries weren't intended to represent absolute truth, but rather what the unreliable narrators believe is the truth?  Or, more cynically, the "truth" they want other people to read.

Modifié par Riona45, 13 août 2010 - 03:05 .