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Playing Against the Chantry


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#301
tmp7704

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jln.francisco wrote...

You mean the window that leads several hundred feet down onto hard stone or several more hundred feet of water?

No, i mean windows which you can see on every floor (including the ground level) if only you look up a bit.

I was thinking more of how a soldier who feels for the enemy and wishes he were on their side would react when rounds are coming down range. He's going to fire back. You'll find your personal ethics and morals really won't matter in the grand scheme of things. People with power will still have what they want happen even if you personally don't agree with it.

Then i repeat, why are you so against keeping some of such people under supervision to prevent this sort of situations? As far as i can tell on one hand you're arguing people don't deserve to be policed in such manner (which is basically ethics, something you claim yourself doesn't matter  much in grand scheme of things) and at the same time you make argument people with power are going to abuse it and they'll have what they want because that's how the power works.

#302
captain.subtle

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jln.francisco wrote...



You're almost as ridiculous as your friend captain.subtle.


Two stones with one bird? <3

#303
AlexXIV

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captain.subtle wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...



You're almost as ridiculous as your friend captain.subtle.


Two stones with one bird? <3


Shale disapproves -50

#304
captain.subtle

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AlexXIV wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...



You're almost as ridiculous as your friend captain.subtle.


Two stones with one bird? <3


Shale disapproves -50


Not if the bird dies, no.

#305
AlexXIV

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captain.subtle wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...



You're almost as ridiculous as your friend captain.subtle.


Two stones with one bird? <3


Shale disapproves -50


Not if the bird dies, no.


But to Shale a rock is worth 2 birds at least, if not more.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 13 août 2010 - 03:47 .


#306
quicksilver_502

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considering the chantry spans most of thedas i think destroying it might be ambitious but it would be nice to damage it. my mage character was always a hostile to the chantry.

#307
tmp7704

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Riona45 wrote...


Actually the mage origin introduces you to a self-hating mage.  Don't remember her name, but she had dark hair and you meet her in the tower chapel.  The dialogue with her strongly implies that she hates herself and her magic because of what the Chantry teaches about it.

Considering how she words her beliefs -- "being born with magic must be a punishment" -- it appears to be more of her own interpretation. Simply put, if the Chantry was actually teaching this as the other person claimed they do,  then she'd be instead saying it is punishment.

I think the point still stands; there doesn't seem to be any situations in the game where the player is actually instigated by the representatives of the Chantry to hate mages. Which would mean the theory of the Chantry actively spreading hate towards the mages remains just that, unconfirmed theory. You'd think if it was as common as it was stated for a fact, there'd be no problems at all with experiencing it first hand in the game.

Even more curiously, if you threaten the Grand Cleric in Lothering there's number of insults she can respond with, but they're only race and gender based -- elves and females get custom ones, everyone else gets a generic response. But you'd think if the Chantry is so used to hating the mages for what they are, she'd be very quick to make the magic the point of insult.



EDIT:  Oh yeah, then there's what Jowan tells you about how his own family treated him when they discovered his magic.

Jowan tells you his mother hated him to the point she made his father give him away. However he also tells you it's because "he got on her bad side, which was easy to do". And since she fought with Jowan's father about it, that means Jowan's father didn't view the issue like that at all.



PS:  By the way, are you aware that the devs have mentioned many times that the codex entries weren't intended to represent absolute truth, but rather what the unreliable narrators believe is the truth?  Or, more cynically, the "truth" they want other people to read.

Yes. If you notice i don't refer to the codex entries.

Modifié par tmp7704, 13 août 2010 - 04:01 .


#308
captain.subtle

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AlexXIV wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

captain.subtle wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...



You're almost as ridiculous as your friend captain.subtle.


Two stones with one bird? <3


Shale disapproves -50


Not if the bird dies, no.


But to Shale a rock is worth 2 birds at least, if not more.


Rocks are immortal.

#309
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As far as i can tell on one hand you're arguing people don't deserve to be policed in such manner (which is basically ethics, something you claim yourself doesn't matter much in grand scheme of things) and at the same time you make argument people with power are going to abuse it and they'll have what they want because that's how the power work




My problem is the double standard you're holding for mages (who while powerful in the blow **** up sense, lack the strength to make decisions that affect countries on a grand scale) and others in a position of power. Should mages have some sort of police that tries to monitor them, of course. Everyone should be policed in some way and people who posses weapons and the like, should have to jump through a few hoops. But the people making these decisions should at the least be relied upon to not mistake a harmless hedge witch for an abomination. My complaint with the Templars and the entire Tower situation is that it is unnecessary, likely to create those same feelings that give rise to abominations and that the Order tasked with policing mages is incompetent, xenophobic and chosen with no regard for competency or talent.



Considering how she words her beliefs -- "being born with magic must be a punishment" -- it appears to be more of her own interpretation. Simply put, if the Chantry was actually teaching this as the other person claimed they do, then she'd be instead saying it is punishment.




Are you ****ing serious? Wow, man. You and subtle really take the cake.

#310
Archereon

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You know, if I was Christian I'd probably be frightened by a lot of the comments in this thread, and glad that most Americans are religious.

#311
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Archereon wrote...

You know, if I was Christian I'd probably be frightened by a lot of the comments in this thread, and glad that most Americans are religious.


And you'd be equally ridiculous for taking the ramblings online over a fictitious religion seriously.

Do folks really think non believers want to burn every church they see or eat good Christian children for breakfast? Wait, don't answer that.

#312
C9316

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I'd rather have the choice to fight for or against the Chantry. I don't want my game ruined a little by being forced to burn the chantry.

#313
Archereon

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jln.francisco wrote...

Archereon wrote...

You know, if I was Christian I'd probably be frightened by a lot of the comments in this thread, and glad that most Americans are religious.


And you'd be equally ridiculous for taking the ramblings online over a fictitious religion seriously.

Do folks really think non believers want to burn every church they see or eat good Christian children for breakfast? Wait, don't answer that.


It's fairly obvious that the Chantry is allegorical for the Christian Church.  While its doubtful anyone really believes that, the view of Christianity many of the comments here display would really disturb me.  If I was Christian.

#314
C9316

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Archereon wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

Archereon wrote...

You know, if I was Christian I'd probably be frightened by a lot of the comments in this thread, and glad that most Americans are religious.


And you'd be equally ridiculous for taking the ramblings online over a fictitious religion seriously.

Do folks really think non believers want to burn every church they see or eat good Christian children for breakfast? Wait, don't answer that.


It's fairly obvious that the Chantry is allegorical for the Christian Church.  While its doubtful anyone really believes that, the view of Christianity many of the comments here display would really disturb me.  If I was Christian.

I'm a christian and these comments don't disturb me. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

#315
tmp7704

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jln.francisco wrote...

My problem is the double standard you're holding for mages (who while powerful in the blow **** up sense, lack the strength to make decisions that affect countries on a grand scale) and others in a position of power.

As long as we ignore the ability to control others through the blood magic which allows to make decisions that affect countries on a grand scale from behind the curtains. That being primary reason blood magic is forbidden, btw.
 

Should mages have some sort of police that tries to monitor them, of course. Everyone should be policed in some way and people who posses weapons and the like, should have to jump through a few hoops. But the people making these decisions should at the least be relied upon to not mistake a harmless hedge witch for an abomination. My complaint with the Templars and the entire Tower situation is that it is unnecessary, likely to create those same feelings that give rise to abominations and that the Order tasked with policing mages is incompetent, xenophobic and chosen with no regard for competency or talent.

Who do you then think would be competent to handle this task? Before you answer "the mages" keep in mind using the very same situation you use to deem the templars incompetent (the tower disaster) the mages appear even less capable of handling such situations -- everyone who wasn't with Uldred gets either killed or imprisoned and then about to be turned into abominations themselves. And they didn't see it coming any better than templars did, even though Uldred was actually one of their own.

Also, without having the mages gathered in places where they can be reasonably monitored, how do you actually supervise them? You keep a list of all harmless hedge witches and do travels to check up on them every couple months, and if some harmless witch did turn into abomination meantime and wiped out its village and few others nearby then oh well, too bad for the peasants, but at least the witch could be happy while it lasted?

I'll fully grant you that the solution they use in the game isn't by any means perfect and certainly, the mages get rough end of the bargain. I just don't exactly see a viable alternative given this is medieval setting with severe limitations when it comes to communication and travel speed, compared to what we're used to and take for granted. Just consider free reign a demon had in Redcliffe, and that's in the castle and village of one of highest ranking officials of the country.

Are you ****ing serious? Wow, man. You and subtle really take the cake.

Yes, i'm asterisk serious. Ridiculous to pay attention to what actually happens and is said in the game instead of relying on one's preconceptions, i know.

#316
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As long as we ignore the ability to control others through the blood magic which allows to make decisions that affect countries on a grand scale from behind the curtains. That being primary reason blood magic is forbidden, btw.




An irrational fear because were blood mages really capable of feats on that level why isn't the Grand Cleric or the Divine under one's control right now? There are plenty of maleficarum out there that the Templars have failed to capture, you kill quiet a few of them throughout Origins. Or why didn't Uldred force Cailan or that Chantry Mother to do what he wanted back at Ostagar? Why did he bargain with Loghain for the Circle's independence if he could just force a regular human to do what he wanted?



If Blood Mages really were that powerful you wouldn't be able to do squat about them anyway.



Before you answer "the mages" keep in mind using the very same situation you use to deem the templars incompetent (the tower disaster) the mages appear even less capable of handling such situations -- everyone who wasn't with Uldred gets either killed or imprisoned and then about to be turned into abominations themselves. And they didn't see it coming any better than templars did, even though Uldred was actually one of their own.




Not everyone was captured or imprisoned. Several Blood Mages were surviving on their own though we are forced to kill them because the developers hate letting you add allies to your ranks.



You are right though. the mages didn't see the situation coming any better then the Templars. I don't see why this means Templars automatically win when it was their responsibility to safeguard against this kind of situation. (by the way, Wynne and her group of mages did a lot more to halt the abomination advance then the Templars and they managed to rescue innocent bystanders in the process.) My point stands, the Templars can't do their job.



Also, without having the mages gathered in places where they can be reasonably monitored, how do you actually supervise them?




How can you expect to monitor a political leader?



If your fear is them becoming abominations there are signs for that. Abominations don't happen except for extremely trying emotional times and once you know someone is a mage you can protect against that with support groups or family or whatever. If the family is abusive or the mage is prone to lack of self control or whatever have you, you can have more experienced mages take them under their wing or have some well trained competent individual look after them.



This is not to say it won't happen but as it already happens all over Thedas with or without Templar supervision I'd say it's worth a try.

I just don't exactly see a viable alternative given this is medieval setting with severe limitations when it comes to communication and travel speed, compared to what we're used to and take for granted.




They got magic haven't they? How's about working on some means of long distance communication? (or some means of improving roads and travel lines? Sten even remarks over just how much of Fereldan's infrastructure. Not holding that against the Templars, I'm just saying. Fereldan has earned its reputation for being a little backwards. Most of the communication problems have more to do with Fereldan itself then the tech available to them.)



Besides, the dwarven army managed to make a force march all the way from Orzammar to Redcliffe full gear and with those short legs. If they can do it, humans can to.



Yes, i'm asterisk serious. Ridiculous to pay attention to what actually happens and is said in the game instead of relying on one's preconceptions, i know.




What you said was absurd. From what I understand of people in that mage's situation she behaved exactly like someone who has internalized the hate she is feeling from an outside source. If you don't see that, oh well, I don't very much care. I'm just disgusted with how with a wave of your hand you decided that poor girl is responsible for her own self hate and obvious depression.

#317
captain.subtle

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I believe that it is the intention of the Devs as well to portray Blood Magic as inherently Evil as opposed to to Conflicted....



one can see that Wynne appears in the game as the Voice of Compassion, reason and goodness in general. Her opinions are normally unbiased (yes, she believes in Chantry but in a philosophical way and NOT theologically) and well reasoned. She seems to have been put into the game as the voice of Conscience.... which you can ignore.... or murder (Anyone read the Book Of Thoth?)


#318
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one can see that Wynne appears in the game as the Voice of Compassion, reason and goodness in general




To you. For me she was the voice of Mothers of America and the disney channel..



Morrigan offered more in terms of practical advice even though much her political and social ideas were about as well developed as Ayn Rand's. Which is to say, not at all.

#319
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Well.. .Disney did make the movie Mary Poppins.


Modifié par captain.subtle, 14 août 2010 - 07:26 .


#320
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captain.subtle wrote...

Well.. .Disney did make the movie Mary Poppins.


i will never forgive Julie Andrews for that. 

#321
captain.subtle

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jln.francisco wrote..

i will never forgive Julie Andrews for that. 


:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

#322
tmp7704

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jln.francisco wrote...

An irrational fear because were blood mages really capable of feats on that level why isn't the Grand Cleric or the Divine under one's control right now? There are plenty of maleficarum out there that the Templars have failed to capture, you kill quiet a few of them throughout Origins. Or why didn't Uldred force Cailan or that Chantry Mother to do what he wanted back at Ostagar? Why did he bargain with Loghain for the Circle's independence if he could just force a regular human to do what he wanted?

Good questions. But considering you get to use the Litany of Adralla yourself, don't you really know answers to them already? It's more than reasonable to expect head figures to be protected from such attempts very much like they're protected from regular assassinations. But the act of being protected doesn't make the threat itself any less real, or irrational.

Not everyone was captured or imprisoned. Several Blood Mages were surviving on their own though we are forced to kill them because the developers hate letting you add allies to your ranks.

I can't remember but weren't these mages initially on Uldred's side, but started to have second thoughts when the situation developed beyond what they expected? In any case they don't get to do much which is a pity but maybe you're right it's to keep that part from becoming too hard to balance (if the extra assist was optional then the latter encounters could get either too easy or to hard if the player didn't opt for that help. hard to tell)

You are right though. the mages didn't see the situation coming any better then the Templars. I don't see why this means Templars automatically win when it was their responsibility to safeguard against this kind of situation. (by the way, Wynne and her group of mages did a lot more to halt the abomination advance then the Templars and they managed to rescue innocent bystanders in the process.) My point stands, the Templars can't do their job.

I mostly look at it from the viewpoint, the templars are trained to resist the magic while the mages not so much. The game claims if the templars can prepare then they're practically impossible to harm by a mage which unfortunately never actually happens in the game with the cap on the mental resistances and such. Still, if this ability is taken into account and treated as real, then they just make a potentially better anti-magic force (be it against mages or abomination) than the mages do.

How can you expect to monitor a political leader?

Political leaders by the very nature of how they work must remain in pretty much permanent contact with other people. They'll rarely if ever go for months or longer to secluded locations that few people from outside visit. Mages in contrast aren't really limited in such manner.

If your fear is them becoming abominations there are signs for that. Abominations don't happen except for extremely trying emotional times and once you know someone is a mage you can protect against that with support groups or family or whatever. If the family is abusive or the mage is prone to lack of self control or whatever have you, you can have more experienced mages take them under their wing or have some well trained competent individual look after them.

I really didn't get such impression from how it was discussed in the game. Certainly, no mage pointed out such possibility. The way it was talked about it seemed more like, the demons are attracted to the mages both when in Fade and if they manage to get out of it, and they try to take them over very much like they try to take over other living being. Whether they succeed is pretty much down to individual strength of will of the mage vs strength of the demon, and very little else.

If it actually worked this way then sure, it may be somewhat viable (still doesn't address cases of mages who will just desire power, but that's another story) But honestly, considering this doesn't seem to be supported by the information provided by the game, can it be you're just projecting your expectations and ideas which tend to work in other settings onto the DA settings, and from that jumping to conclusion this is how it actually works and as such your solution could work?

(then there's also this potential issue with plain numbers. Considering an abomination is clearly out of league of single mage/templar, then putting mages prone to failure under wings of more experienced mage/other individual isn't going to help much shall they actually fail, and there's no guarantee they won't fail, after all. Given this, a system where you have say, dozen mages and dozen experienced people to watch them over --and hoping you won't have to deal with more than single abomination at once which is rather reasonable since demons don't seem to invade in large numbers on their own-- makes sense from practical standpoint. More than rather implausible system where each individual student is assigned dozen supervisors just so they can deal with the potential trouble. But then it is very much the way the Circles are set up. Hmm)

They got magic haven't they? How's about working on some means of long distance communication? (or some means of improving roads and travel lines?

Well, seeing how they didn't work out these improvements despite magic being the very thing that used to run Tevinter Imperium for hundreds of years, perhaps there's some limitations to DA flavour of magic that prevent it? Granted, being able to handwave everything with "a wizard did it" can be convenient way to remove obstacles but then maybe they (the devs) are instead more interested in creating a world where such obstacles do in fact exist and force hard choices rather than nice "everyone is happy" solutions.
 

What you said was absurd. From what I understand of people in that mage's situation she behaved exactly like someone who has internalized the hate she is feeling from an outside source. If you don't see that, oh well, I don't very much care.

I don't really agree with it because it is also not unusual for a person to develop self-depreciating attitude on their own rather than have it beaten into their heads by someone else. So as long as we aren't actually shown cases where such external indoctrination does take place, and also given how things were worded,  i'd consider it basic case of applying Occam's razor -- that is, not introducing theoretical factors beyond what's necessary to provide a working explanation.

#323
captain.subtle

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Templars CANNOT be trained to fight Abominations....



That requires Abominations on your beck-and-call all the time. They have to make do with either some little experience or heresay and innate strength/abilities.

#324
Riona45

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Archereon wrote...

You know, if I was Christian I'd probably be frightened by a lot of the comments in this thread, and glad that most Americans are religious.


The internet isn't America, just so you know.  And if you take criticism of a ficitional religion seriously, then you are an idiot.

Modifié par Riona45, 15 août 2010 - 12:38 .


#325
captain.subtle

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Riona45 wrote...

Archereon wrote...

You know, if I was Christian I'd probably be frightened by a lot of the comments in this thread, and glad that most Americans are religious.


The internet isn't America, just so you know.  And if you take criticism of a ficitional religion seriously, then you are an idiot.


kindly refrain from personal insults.