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Playing Against the Chantry


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#351
Daryn Mercio

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captain.subtle wrote...

The historical parallel you point to is right, but the victims in that example never ruled the world with a iron fist, sacrificing thousands for the sake of power. So I guess in DA the common folk were victims and chantry was their wrath.... I believe that no government can really rule without an implicit acceptance of its citizens unless mind control (a blood magic speciality) is involved.....

The Germans after WWI were in a terrible condition until Hitler came along, and they were subject to extreme poverty and had to pay reparations to every participant in the war. And being a World War, where weapons were able to be utilized for mass killing for the first time, there were extremely hefty prices to be paid, forced upon them.
Look up the Weimar Republic, the 10 year running government of Germany after WWI

#352
Everwarden

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Teddie Sage wrote...

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

This thread is pretty disturbing. Not very surprising, but disturbing.


I do apologize for that. It went overboard and I'm sorry for that. But the main idea was about going anti-Chantry. Not necessarely going Evil. I goofed off too much about it.


Don't be sorry, DaringMoose is too easily disturbed.

#353
Everwarden

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thegreateski wrote...

I would like to see this post of Bioware making it very clear that it's based on Catholicism.

If you do not have this source then you are simply talking out of your ass.

-polite-


...right. We don't need Bioware to confirm it, because it's -OBVIOUS-. We wouldn't need Bioware to tell us Orlais is based on France, either.

Some random guy from earlier in the thread who's name I forget wrote...

i dont remember martin luther hating jews


Yeah, you obviously haven't read up much on it. He authored a book called "Of the Jews and their Lies", among other rather nasty works. The man was a crackpot.

Modifié par Everwarden, 15 août 2010 - 01:25 .


#354
Tirigon

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captain.subtle wrote...


I support you in saying that the Chantry is not wholely evil. Through their prejudices towards magic due to experience with the Tevinter Imperium their behaviour has become both draconic and paranoid. But their central goal is not so very wrong at all, which is containing the exposure of mages to the world unless they are deemed reliable (like Wynne).


Apply that logic to real life and you are just saying that the N@zis concentration camps were a good idea overall.......

Seriously, I wish people would think before they post. Are you really suggesting it is ok to imprison people for being born with skills others don´t have?!?!

I really hope you missed that implication, because if you actually support such a practice you must be a fascist ass. Sorry.

#355
Daryn Mercio

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RogueGeth wrote...

@jln: True but still she still had enough power to bring the Tevinter Imperium and Archons to their knees, probably could've if her husband didn't betray here.

@teddie: Well I'll attack the corrupt templars, the ones Cornell (before going insane) and Alistair I would try to help them get rid of their dependency. I hate corrupt parts of the chantry, not the whole thing. Andraste was great person but the people who followed her were...welll not so great.

Mostly because her army of barbarians outnumbered the Imperium by a landslide no doubt. Or she was just a really powerful mage

#356
Heimdall

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To be clear, does defiling the ashes actually harm the chantry? Sure they'd be angry if they found out but I don't see it harming it.



Also: Am I the only one who distinguishes between the Andrastrian religion and the organization that is the Chantry?



Example: My mage was really not a fan of the chantry but he didn't defile the ashes because he at least has a measure of reverence for Andraste. (Well, that and he didn't really feel the need to do anything for those crazy Dragon worshipers)

#357
Daryn Mercio

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Ok, I have just thought up something kind of crazy, but it matches up very well...

Andraste, possible mage (not necessarily a blood mage) is the inspiration of a religion that has obviously changed its ways drastically from the way she would have wanted it.

Jesus Christ, a Jewish man who is responsible for the creation of Christianity, which has also been changed by kings and whatnot throughout the centuries.

Christians and Jews don't get along because Christians blame the Jews for Jesus' death.

Andrastians don't like mages, because mages were responsible for Andraste's death

Jesus was Jewish, and Andrast might have been a mage. Anyone following my connection?

#358
Heimdall

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Daryn Mercio wrote...

Ok, I have just thought up something kind of crazy, but it matches up very well...
Andraste, possible mage (not necessarily a blood mage) is the inspiration of a religion that has obviously changed its ways drastically from the way she would have wanted it.
Jesus Christ, a Jewish man who is responsible for the creation of Christianity, which has also been changed by kings and whatnot throughout the centuries.
Christians and Jews don't get along because Christians blame the Jews for Jesus' death.
Andrastians don't like mages, because mages were responsible for Andraste's death
Jesus was Jewish, and Andrast might have been a mage. Anyone following my connection?


Makes sense, though Andraste doesn't really have to be a mage for it to work.

#359
captain.subtle

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Lord Aesir wrote...

Daryn Mercio wrote...

Ok, I have just thought up something kind of crazy, but it matches up very well...
Andraste, possible mage (not necessarily a blood mage) is the inspiration of a religion that has obviously changed its ways drastically from the way she would have wanted it.
Jesus Christ, a Jewish man who is responsible for the creation of Christianity, which has also been changed by kings and whatnot throughout the centuries.
Christians and Jews don't get along because Christians blame the Jews for Jesus' death.
Andrastians don't like mages, because mages were responsible for Andraste's death
Jesus was Jewish, and Andrast might have been a mage. Anyone following my connection?


Makes sense, though Andraste doesn't really have to be a mage for it to work.


it is true that She does not HAVE to be a mage. But there is some evidence even in chantry lore that points to it.... She could enter the fade in her dreams and be conscious of it....

#360
Tirigon

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Daryn Mercio wrote...

Ok, I have just thought up something kind of crazy, but it matches up very well...
Andraste, possible mage (not necessarily a blood mage) is the inspiration of a religion that has obviously changed its ways drastically from the way she would have wanted it.
Jesus Christ, a Jewish man who is responsible for the creation of Christianity, which has also been changed by kings and whatnot throughout the centuries.
Christians and Jews don't get along because Christians blame the Jews for Jesus' death.
Andrastians don't like mages, because mages were responsible for Andraste's death
Jesus was Jewish, and Andrast might have been a mage. Anyone following my connection?


Quite possible, the similarities are definitely there.
On the other hand, people never get along with people who are different from themselves, even if it´s only different taste in music or clothing. How should they get along with each other if the difference is that one can blow things up with magic and the others coan´t?

#361
Shepard Lives

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Personally, I've decided that my first playthrough will be a Mage Hawke who tears the Chantry into the littlest possible shreds not because duh, he's a mage and he hates the chantry, but mainly for altruistic reasons.



"Be free, inhabitants of the Free Marches! You will not be thralls of oddly-dressed storytellers ever again!"

#362
Shepard Lives

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Daryn Mercio wrote...

Ok, I have just thought up something kind of crazy, but it matches up very well...
Andraste, possible mage (not necessarily a blood mage) is the inspiration of a religion that has obviously changed its ways drastically from the way she would have wanted it.
Jesus Christ, a Jewish man who is responsible for the creation of Christianity, which has also been changed by kings and whatnot throughout the centuries.
Christians and Jews don't get along because Christians blame the Jews for Jesus' death.
Andrastians don't like mages, because mages were responsible for Andraste's death
Jesus was Jewish, and Andrast might have been a mage. Anyone following my connection?


Consider my mind blown.

#363
SirShreK

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Considered!

#364
tmp7704

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jln.francisco wrote...

Jowan was a suspected blood mage. There were several Templars sent to apprehend him. He takes them out with a single spell.

The game exaggerates the abilities of many different classes playing up the lore aspect of it all. You shouldn't take everything you 'learn' at face value.

I'm not sure but it seems you're countering your own argument here -- the game does indeed exaggerate abilities where needed, which may well mean Jowan was "allowed" by the plot to do something the lore otherwise says he wouldn't be likely to pull off, simply to allow him escape in a situation where he shouldn't really be able to do it.

That scene is especially silly when you watch it carefully -- you have Jowan dramatically stab himself and then spend considerable time casting the spell while templars step away from him rather than punch him straight in the mouth to knock him out, and both Greagoir and Irving just passively watch that even though either of them is able to immobilize or otherwise interrupt him in a blink.
 

No. A single abomination is out of the league of a single templar. Mages seemed capable of holding their own against them and even able to form small bands throughout the tower to fight them back. We're even introduced to Wynne and her apprentices defeating an attacking rage demon and we witness several blood mages battling an abomination. It seems magic was the best weapon against them afterall.

Ehh, i'm sorry but you only evidence cases of multiple mages fighting single abominations and even then generally losing these fights (even Wynne's attempt also ended with her dying in it, if you remember) This by no means show single mage can stand up to abomination.

There's also no "small bands of mages throughout the tower" There's few blood mages who state it clearly they're "with Uldred and making sure his plan works" and a second similar group on another floor has its remaining blood mages trying to fight one of their own who was overcome by a demon (and failing) Oh and a mage hiding in a closet. None of them there is "fighting back".

In every instance the mage must invite the demon in. Uldred has to torture them in order to get them to accept the possession. In other words he has to compromise their decision making process through high stress situations.

Lack of struggle makes the process easier so i'm not surprised Uldred makes it easier for his fellow demons where he can and where it doesn't cost him much to try it. However the game states it quite clear demons try to possess the mages either "by force or offering some sort of a deal" so it doesn't seem like agreement is a necessary factor. If you recall player's own Harrowing experience the rage demon you meet there can't be pacified with just a "no", it actively attacks the player stating "soon I shall see the land of the living with your eyes, creature. You shall be mine, body and soul." It doesn't even ask for your opinion on this matter.

Not it isn't. There is always some external force reminding said individual they are weak/worthless/immoral/what have you. Especially when it reaches the level of where that mage is at.

That's hardly as easy as that. Often it's enough for a person to see they're different from a norm. It's not something they need to be told about, they have their own eyes and brain to recognize it. Some may welcome this difference, but some may question why they're born with it and consider it a curse which prevents them from having a normal life. In this sense, the "external force" you speak of is merely the existence of others.

Why do people who don't know how to apply Occam's razor always end up being the first people to try and apply it to arguments?

Why do people choose to take vague pot-shots instead of making actual arguments? If you believe this was wrong application then explain, otherwise this leads nowhere considering you haven't exactly demonstrated you know how it works yourself.

#365
Everwarden

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tmp7704 wrote...
Lack of struggle makes the process easier so i'm not surprised Uldred makes it easier for his fellow demons where he can and where it doesn't cost him much to try it. However the game states it quite clear demons try to possess the mages either "by force or offering some sort of a deal" so it doesn't seem like agreement is a necessary factor. If you recall player's own Harrowing experience the rage demon you meet there can't be pacified with just a "no", it actively attacks the player stating "soon I shall see the land of the living with your eyes, creature. You shall be mine, body and soul." It doesn't even ask for your opinion on this matter.


But if you actually think about what you just said, you'll realize that you're wrong. The rage demon attacks you, but who was the real threat in the harrowing? I interpreted the rage demon attacking you as merely a distraction technique, to lull your character into thinking that fighting a demon off is as simple and straightforward as a confrontation with said demon.

What was the intended lesson of the harrowing? It was a PRIDE demon, the highest demon on the food chain. If it's as easy as just battering a mage in the fade and stepping into his body, why wouldn't the pride demon have just taken you? You're nowhere near a match for a demon of that class at that point in the game, either game-mechanic or lore-wise, so if what you're saying is true why would a pride demon bother with subterfuge, or with trying to convince you to let him in? Hell, the demon says it himself "All you have to do is want to let me in."

#366
Guest_jln.francisco_*

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I'm not sure but it seems you're countering your own argument here -- the game does indeed exaggerate abilities where needed, which may well mean Jowan was "allowed" by the plot to do something the lore otherwise says he wouldn't be likely to pull off, simply to allow him escape in a situation where he shouldn't really be able to do it.




No bull**** because the plot needed it excuses. The Tower is a heavily fortified structure in the middle of a lake. Jowan is a suspected blood mage and defeats the Templars sent to apprehend him with ease and manages to evade capture. So obviously the Templars aren't as invulnerable to magic as they lead others to believe nor are their preventive measures all that great.



That scene is especially silly when you watch it carefully -- you have Jowan dramatically stab himself and then spend considerable time casting the spell while templars step away from him rather than punch him straight in the mouth to knock him out, and both Greagoir and Irving just passively watch that even though either of them is able to immobilize or otherwise interrupt him in a blink.




The animation is weak through out the whole game. Generally I ignore it and focus on the dialogue and what's actually happening rather then how they try to render it.



Ehh, i'm sorry but you only evidence cases of multiple mages fighting single abominations and even then generally losing these fights (even Wynne's attempt also ended with her dying in it, if you remember) This by no means show single mage can stand up to abomination.




Yes it does as (even though it kills her) Wynne has some success. Mages can fight these creatures with a much higher possibility of victory then Templars. All the Templars in the Tower were only prepared for a few abominations whereas a mage can hold her own against one for some time.



There's also no "small bands of mages throughout the tower" There's few blood mages who state it clearly they're "with Uldred and making sure his plan works" and a second similar group on another floor has its remaining blood mages trying to fight one of their own who was overcome by a demon (and failing) Oh and a mage hiding in a closet. None of them there is "fighting back".




Yes they are fighting back as the Tower is full of abominations and abominations have no allies but other demons and abominations. They've managed to form a small group and are surviving in a horribly hostile environment. The mages you try to imply are trying to help the abominations are likely no different then soldiers who get separated from their command. They carry out whatever orders they received last because they have nothing else to go by. The mages fighting the abomination are doing just that, fighting back and I hate that I am forced to kill them when they would have made fine allies.



If you recall player's own Harrowing experience the rage demon you meet there can't be pacified with just a "no", it actively attacks the player stating "soon I shall see the land of the living with your eyes, creature. You shall be mine, body and soul." It doesn't even ask for your opinion on this matter.




Yes, it tries to break your will. What does that have to do with my original point? I don't see how that scenario is any more likely if you aren't in the Tower. Demons can't simply take your body over. They have break you down to do it.



Often it's enough for a person to see they're different from a norm.




No it isn't especially for someone where Keili (i think her name is) is at emotionally. You don't get there by noticing difference between you and other people.



Why do people choose to take vague pot-shots instead of making actual arguments?




You can't see me but I'm rolling my eyes at you.

#367
SirShreK

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Everwarden wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
Lack of struggle makes the process easier so i'm not surprised Uldred makes it easier for his fellow demons where he can and where it doesn't cost him much to try it. However the game states it quite clear demons try to possess the mages either "by force or offering some sort of a deal" so it doesn't seem like agreement is a necessary factor. If you recall player's own Harrowing experience the rage demon you meet there can't be pacified with just a "no", it actively attacks the player stating "soon I shall see the land of the living with your eyes, creature. You shall be mine, body and soul." It doesn't even ask for your opinion on this matter.


But if you actually think about what you just said, you'll realize that you're wrong. The rage demon attacks you, but who was the real threat in the harrowing? I interpreted the rage demon attacking you as merely a distraction technique, to lull your character into thinking that fighting a demon off is as simple and straightforward as a confrontation with said demon.

What was the intended lesson of the harrowing? It was a PRIDE demon, the highest demon on the food chain. If it's as easy as just battering a mage in the fade and stepping into his body, why wouldn't the pride demon have just taken you? You're nowhere near a match for a demon of that class at that point in the game, either game-mechanic or lore-wise, so if what you're saying is true why would a pride demon bother with subterfuge, or with trying to convince you to let him in? Hell, the demon says it himself "All you have to do is want to let me in."


I think you are misinterpreting the pride demon. He is a part of the test.... Not there to possess or kill the mage.. That he could have done easily.

#368
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SirShreK wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
Lack of struggle makes the process easier so i'm not surprised Uldred makes it easier for his fellow demons where he can and where it doesn't cost him much to try it. However the game states it quite clear demons try to possess the mages either "by force or offering some sort of a deal" so it doesn't seem like agreement is a necessary factor. If you recall player's own Harrowing experience the rage demon you meet there can't be pacified with just a "no", it actively attacks the player stating "soon I shall see the land of the living with your eyes, creature. You shall be mine, body and soul." It doesn't even ask for your opinion on this matter.


But if you actually think about what you just said, you'll realize that you're wrong. The rage demon attacks you, but who was the real threat in the harrowing? I interpreted the rage demon attacking you as merely a distraction technique, to lull your character into thinking that fighting a demon off is as simple and straightforward as a confrontation with said demon.

What was the intended lesson of the harrowing? It was a PRIDE demon, the highest demon on the food chain. If it's as easy as just battering a mage in the fade and stepping into his body, why wouldn't the pride demon have just taken you? You're nowhere near a match for a demon of that class at that point in the game, either game-mechanic or lore-wise, so if what you're saying is true why would a pride demon bother with subterfuge, or with trying to convince you to let him in? Hell, the demon says it himself "All you have to do is want to let me in."


I think you are misinterpreting the pride demon. He is a part of the test.... Not there to possess or kill the mage.. That he could have done easily.


No he is there to possess the mage. That's the test. Keep a demon from possessing you or be run through by the Templars before it has a chance to take you completely.

#369
Everwarden

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SirShreK wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
Lack of struggle makes the process easier so i'm not surprised Uldred makes it easier for his fellow demons where he can and where it doesn't cost him much to try it. However the game states it quite clear demons try to possess the mages either "by force or offering some sort of a deal" so it doesn't seem like agreement is a necessary factor. If you recall player's own Harrowing experience the rage demon you meet there can't be pacified with just a "no", it actively attacks the player stating "soon I shall see the land of the living with your eyes, creature. You shall be mine, body and soul." It doesn't even ask for your opinion on this matter.


But if you actually think about what you just said, you'll realize that you're wrong. The rage demon attacks you, but who was the real threat in the harrowing? I interpreted the rage demon attacking you as merely a distraction technique, to lull your character into thinking that fighting a demon off is as simple and straightforward as a confrontation with said demon.

What was the intended lesson of the harrowing? It was a PRIDE demon, the highest demon on the food chain. If it's as easy as just battering a mage in the fade and stepping into his body, why wouldn't the pride demon have just taken you? You're nowhere near a match for a demon of that class at that point in the game, either game-mechanic or lore-wise, so if what you're saying is true why would a pride demon bother with subterfuge, or with trying to convince you to let him in? Hell, the demon says it himself "All you have to do is want to let me in."


I think you are misinterpreting the pride demon. He is a part of the test.... Not there to possess or kill the mage.. That he could have done easily.


So you're suggesting... that the pride demon is cooperating with the templars in order to teach you a lesson? Yeah, sorry, not buying that.

#370
SirShreK

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jln.francisco wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
Lack of struggle makes the process easier so i'm not surprised Uldred makes it easier for his fellow demons where he can and where it doesn't cost him much to try it. However the game states it quite clear demons try to possess the mages either "by force or offering some sort of a deal" so it doesn't seem like agreement is a necessary factor. If you recall player's own Harrowing experience the rage demon you meet there can't be pacified with just a "no", it actively attacks the player stating "soon I shall see the land of the living with your eyes, creature. You shall be mine, body and soul." It doesn't even ask for your opinion on this matter.


But if you actually think about what you just said, you'll realize that you're wrong. The rage demon attacks you, but who was the real threat in the harrowing? I interpreted the rage demon attacking you as merely a distraction technique, to lull your character into thinking that fighting a demon off is as simple and straightforward as a confrontation with said demon.

What was the intended lesson of the harrowing? It was a PRIDE demon, the highest demon on the food chain. If it's as easy as just battering a mage in the fade and stepping into his body, why wouldn't the pride demon have just taken you? You're nowhere near a match for a demon of that class at that point in the game, either game-mechanic or lore-wise, so if what you're saying is true why would a pride demon bother with subterfuge, or with trying to convince you to let him in? Hell, the demon says it himself "All you have to do is want to let me in."


I think you are misinterpreting the pride demon. He is a part of the test.... Not there to possess or kill the mage.. That he could have done easily.


No he is there to possess the mage. That's the test. Keep a demon from possessing you or be run through by the Templars before it has a chance to take you completely.


Well... He's a pwerful Pride demon, right? How could he simply not force the Warden (to be) mage to possess him? or even kill him? He even knew that there was a test involved.... He said as much....

#371
Everwarden

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That's the point, he wanted to possess the mage but was unable to without the mage consenting! That's why coercion was involved rather than force. So the answer is no, he can't just possess him.

#372
SirShreK

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Everwarden wrote...

That's the point, he wanted to possess the mage but was unable to without the mage consenting! That's why coercion was involved rather than force. So the answer is no, he can't just possess him.


Even if you allow him he does not possess you.. right? Or am I remembering wrong? I will just check the dialogue online....

#373
Everwarden

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SirShreK wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

That's the point, he wanted to possess the mage but was unable to without the mage consenting! That's why coercion was involved rather than force. So the answer is no, he can't just possess him.


Even if you allow him he does not possess you.. right? Or am I remembering wrong? I will just check the dialogue online....


There isn't a "Yeah go ahead" dialogue option if I recall correctly.

#374
SirShreK

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hmm... Just checked there are choices to help it escape but the plot does not allow you to follow them.. The demon automatically turns into its real form in any case..... He actually knows that he is a part of a test.... (checked, he says that).... Plot necessity I guess...

#375
Tirigon

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SirShreK wrote...

hmm... Just checked there are choices to help it escape but the plot does not allow you to follow them.. The demon automatically turns into its real form in any case..... He actually knows that he is a part of a test.... (checked, he says that).... Plot necessity I guess...


Indeed. What sucks, I´d be pleasiantly surprised if it had possessed my mage and then there comes a cinematic where she´s killed and you have to reload / make a new char. That would have been so cool.