160 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Riona45 wrote...
This is a little off-topic, but I have the feeling the PC would have had the spolight if she actually had a voice, which is one reason why I look foward to having a fully voiced PC.

I happen to agree completely. Still, even if you gave the dramatic speech there, the point still stands that for the entire game prior to the landsmeet, you are not so much commanding as you are begging.

[Riona45]

In Exile wrote...


I happen to agree completely. Still, even if you gave the dramatic speech there, the point still stands that for the entire game prior to the landsmeet, you are not so much commanding as you are begging.

True, LOL.  I don't disagree with your main point.

[Riona45]

jln.francisco wrote...

Btw, am I the only one who hears a ting of robotic politeness in Duncan's voice? Like a store clerk who has to be nice to everyone who comes into his store despite wanting to murder them in their sleep.

I don't know if he has murderous thoughts, but I remember the character being described as courteous, and he certainly acted that way in the game.  It would make sense that he was often polite to people he didn't feel deserved it.

[SirOccam]

In Exile wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

To force the GW into a leadership role. And to give Alistair something to brood/grieve over.

What leadership role?

You're a bunch of rag-tag misfits trying to desperately convince everyone within earshot that a blight is coming and it'd be a pretty nifty idea if we all banded toghether to stop it.

The Warden doesn't do any meaningful commanding at all. Hell, Alistair/Anora and Eamon are the ones that march on Denerim, and Alistair/Anora is the one very visibly commands the amry

The GW is the leader of the "bunch of rag-tag misfits." Even Alistair, who has seniority, defers to you. Would it be the same if you were just following Duncan's orders all game? No, it is definitely plot-centric that the GW must make difficult decisions without someone there to tell him or her what to do.

Your GW's word alone can spare or destroy a life. Even Eamon holds back his Landsmeet idea until you give your go-ahead. Your GW, if he or she survived Origins, becomes Warden Commander. Would any of that happen if Duncan was there? As others have mentioned, it's pretty crucial to the GW's growth that he or she has this burden of leadership thrust upon him or her.

He had no way of knowing when another opportunity would present itself. And it was a pretty decent opportunity at that. Hindsight is 20/20. If he hadn't attempted that, how much longer would the AD have flown around, untouched, wreaking havoc? For all we know, the AD could have gotten a lucky hit on the Warden's party and killed them. Then everyone would be yelling about what a coward he was for not taking the opportunity when it presented itself.

But instead, he saw his chance and went for it, without regard for his own safety.

Trying to take a dragon one on one by catapulting yourself at it is stupid. Seriously, he got lucky that he was thrown off and managed to clip a wing before falling to his death. What if the archdemon swerved? What if it turned upside down? What if it landed and had an ogre pull Riodan off?

There are so few ways his stunt could actually work.

Like I said, hindsight is 20/20.  What if his blade buried itself in the AD's neck instead of its back (where it apparently missed any vital organs)? What if, like I said, he didn't take the opportunity, and the Archdemon killed the Warden and Alistair? We could sit here all day and think of things that could have happened. What if the Archdemon had lowered his head a little faster at the end? The Ultimate Sacrifice Warden could have run straight into its open mouth. You can't fight dragons without risks.

Trying to take a dragon on period is stupid, but someone's got to do it. That's where the Grey Wardens come in. It's what they DO.

[SirOccam]

In Exile wrote...

Riona45 wrote...
This is a little off-topic, but I have the feeling the PC would have had the spolight if she actually had a voice, which is one reason why I look foward to having a fully voiced PC.

I happen to agree completely. Still, even if you gave the dramatic speech there, the point still stands that for the entire game prior to the landsmeet, you are not so much commanding as you are begging.

The point is not that you're in charge of everything and everyone. You are, however, in charge of the Ferelden Grey Wardens. Even though there are only two of  you, that position still has a lot of influence. That is still leadership, whether you are commanding 7 people or 70,000.

[Riona45]

SirOccam wrote...

Your GW's word alone can spare or destroy a life. Even Eamon holds back his Landsmeet idea until you give your go-ahead. Your GW, if he or she survived Origins, becomes Warden Commander. Would any of that happen if Duncan was there? As others have mentioned, it's pretty crucial to the GW's growth that he or she has this burden of leadership thrust upon him or her.

Those are fair points.  You do get to be a kingmaker in DA:O, although you really come into your own as a "Commander" in Awakening.  The expansion wasn't perfect, but one thing I loved about it was how you really got to feel like a political leader.

[Biotic Budah]

Riona45 wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Your GW's word alone can spare or destroy a life. Even Eamon holds back his Landsmeet idea until you give your go-ahead. Your GW, if he or she survived Origins, becomes Warden Commander. Would any of that happen if Duncan was there? As others have mentioned, it's pretty crucial to the GW's growth that he or she has this burden of leadership thrust upon him or her.

Those are fair points.  You do get to be a kingmaker in DA:O, although you really come into your own as a "Commander" in Awakening.  The expansion wasn't perfect, but one thing I loved about it was how you really got to feel like a political leader.

Though the expansion is working a heck of a lot better since the patch, kudos for them getting that out.

[In Exile]

[quote]SirOccam wrote...
The GW is the leader of the "bunch of rag-tag misfits." Even Alistair, who has seniority, defers to you. Would it be the same if you were just following Duncan's orders all game? No, it is definitely plot-centric that the GW must make difficult decisions without someone there to tell him or her what to do.[/quote]

I suppose I just don't see it, but then I never saw the Warden as the leader of the group of misfits. Alistair couldn't make up his mind where to go first, so you had to. And that was pretty much all the "leadering" that you did.

[quote]Your GW's word alone can spare or destroy a life. Even Eamon holds back his Landsmeet idea until you give your go-ahead. [/quote]

Let's not mistake a game option for a power option, shall we? Eamon holds back the landsmeet so the player can do what is convenient without dramatically moving on to another stage of the game.

[quote]Your GW, if he or she survived Origins, becomes Warden Commander. Would any of that happen if Duncan was there? [/quote]

That doesn't happen in DA - so speaking about that as evidence of your leadership in DA, well...

And, actually, yes, it's quite possible it would happen if Duncan was there. His Calling was coming. There would be two (or one) other Warden left in Ferelden from Ferelden, and picking you would make as much sesne in either case.

[quote]As others have mentioned, it's pretty crucial to the GW's growth that he or she has this burden of leadership thrust upon him or her.[/quote]

Again, what burden?

[quote]]He had no way of knowing when another opportunity would present itself. And it was a pretty decent opportunity at that. Hindsight is 20/20. If he hadn't attempted that, how much longer would the AD have flown around, untouched, wreaking havoc? For all we know, the AD could have gotten a lucky hit on the Warden's party and killed them. Then everyone would be yelling about what a coward he was for not taking the opportunity when it presented itself.

But instead, he saw his chance and went for it, without regard for his own safety.

[quote]Like I said, hindsight is 20/20.  [/quote]

The opportunity to throw himself off a building and probably miss the archdemon?

[quote]What if his blade buried itself in the AD's neck instead of its back (where it apparently missed any vital organs)? [/quote]

Given the apparent effectiveness of swords on dragons, probably not very much.

[quote]What if, like I said, he didn't take the opportunity, and the Archdemon killed the Warden and Alistair?[/quote]

What opportunity? You make it sound as if the probable outcome wasn't a bloodstain 50 feet below, but a reasonable chance to hurt or kill the archdemon.

Getting shot in the chest isn't an opportunity to survive, so to speak.

[quote]We could sit here all day and think of things that could have happened. What if the Archdemon had lowered his head a little faster at the end? The Ultimate Sacrifice Warden could have run straight into its open mouth. You can't fight dragons without risks.[/quote]

Well, obviously. But certain things are quite much more stupid than others. Attacking the dragon naked was also an option, but not particulary a good one.

[quote]Trying to take a dragon on period is stupid, but someone's got to do it. That's where the Grey Wardens come in. It's what they DO.
[/quote]

Well, sure. But if the Grey Warden plan is to throw themselves off buildings at it, I think they need a few remedial hero sessions.

[In Exile]

SirOccam wrote...
The point is not that you're in charge of everything and everyone. You are, however, in charge of the Ferelden Grey Wardens. Even though there are only two of  you, that position still has a lot of influence. That is still leadership, whether you are commanding 7 people or 70,000.

Except, of course, that you're not in charge of anything. You're just abusing the word leadership at this point. You're the guy telling Alistair what to do and the guy everyone else believes isn't lying when you a) say there is a blight and say you are a Grey Warden.

Leadership isn't tellign your buddy what do to and begging for donations.

I don't mean to diminish what you accomplish in-game as the Warden; but at no point do you ever exhibit qualities that are particularly indicative of leadership.

[SirOccam]

In Exile wrote...

SirOccam wrote...
The point is not that you're in charge of everything and everyone. You are, however, in charge of the Ferelden Grey Wardens. Even though there are only two of  you, that position still has a lot of influence. That is still leadership, whether you are commanding 7 people or 70,000.

Except, of course, that you're not in charge of anything. You're just abusing the word leadership at this point. You're the guy telling Alistair what to do and the guy everyone else believes isn't lying when you a) say there is a blight and say you are a Grey Warden.

Leadership isn't tellign your buddy what do to and begging for donations.

I don't mean to diminish what you accomplish in-game as the Warden; but at no point do you ever exhibit qualities that are particularly indicative of leadership.

How about the fact that everyone has to ask your permission to take care of their personal business? "Hey, if it's not too much trouble, and if we have time, do you think we could...?"

No one else ever makes a call for you to go along with. You decide everything your group does. Some of that is empty game mechanics, like choosing which location on the map to travel to in what order, but it IS dealt with at times in-game. Such as Morrigan asking Alistair why he allows you to make all the decisions. Alistair even says "I prefer to follow." So who's he following, if not the Grey Warden? Or when Sten questions your actions in Haven, in which you can specifically say "Well, there’s nothing you can do about it. I’m in charge." And your dialogue with Wynne, where you can confide in her about everyone "expecting so much from me." That is the burden I was referring to. You make the hard decisions, and take the flak for them.

If the Warden isn't in charge, then who is? You certainly don't make decisions democratically.

Just gonna let the Riordan bit go. I think it was a reasonable risk, you don't. Neither of us can prove our side correct. Agree to disagree.

Modifié par SirOccam, 09 août 2010 - 06:43 .

[KLUME777]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Duncan took a two-handed axe to the face in Dragon Age Origins, so yes we did see him die.

I suppose Bioware could always bring him back if they really wanted to, but it would be beyond lame. As of DA:O there was no mystery as to his fate. He was dead, and bringing him back in a sequel is a major retcon.

We didnt actually see him die, it cut to the warden (you).

[Anarya]

KLUME777 wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Duncan took a two-handed axe to the face in Dragon Age Origins, so yes we did see him die.

I suppose Bioware could always bring him back if they really wanted to, but it would be beyond lame. As of DA:O there was no mystery as to his fate. He was dead, and bringing him back in a sequel is a major retcon.

We didnt actually see him die, it cut to the warden (you).

Well we didn't see him die because at that point we were watching from Duncan's POV, and he, well...died. Thus necessitating the cut.

[i love lamp x3]

duncan was going to die soon anyway. alistair said duncan told him that it was his time, as in his 30 years were up.

[captain.subtle]

jln.francisco wrote...But the fact of the matter is it was a longshot he'd even wound the bastard.

Call it climactic drama, since I doubt that a party of four can kill a dragon otherwise anyway.

[In Exile]

SirOccam wrote...
How about the fact that everyone has to ask your permission to take care of their personal business? "Hey, if it's not too much trouble, and if we have time, do you think we could...?"

I always felt that was more along the lines of a buddy asking if you didn't mind coming over to help you move. I did not feel any particular deference to authority.

No one else ever makes a call for you to go along with. You decide everything your group does. Some of that is empty game mechanics, like choosing which location on the map to travel to in what order, but it IS dealt with at times in-game. Such as Morrigan asking Alistair why he allows you to make all the decisions. Alistair even says "I prefer to follow."

Right, I never denied Alistair wanted to follow your lead as a Warden. But Alistair not being able to make decisions for himself does not make you a leader in any meaningful sense of the world.

Or when Sten questions your actions in Haven, in which you can specifically say "Well, there’s nothing you can do about it. I’m in charge." And your dialogue with Wynne, where you can confide in her about everyone "expecting so much from me." That is the burden I was referring to. You make the hard decisions, and take the flak for them.

I just absolutely didn't see it for feel it in the game. I saw the Sten dialogue as just being a variant of "who are you to talk to me this way," and with Wynne, with everyone as referencing everyone in the world who would benefit from stopping the Blight.

As a person, I'm the type of guy who says "I'm doing [x]. You guys are welcome to come along or screw off." And I felt that was what the Warden did, and everyone just willingly went alone with it, as opposed to defered in some way.

Now, thinking on it, I agree that the intention was for Bioware to make you a leader in more than just a social sense. I just absolutely did not feel that way in-game. It was something they failed to portray, in the same way Bioware seemed to wanted to make you care about the mission and identity of the Grey Wardens but failed with that.

If the Warden isn't in charge, then who is? You certainly don't make decisions democratically.

No one. To me, it was always, the Warden does things, and people either willing come along or do not. But it was a "I'm going to the movies and whoever wants is welcome to come along," vein of social following. That some uncompromising person sets the agenda does not feel like leadership to me.

Just gonna let the Riordan bit go. I think it was a reasonable risk, you don't. Neither of us can prove our side correct. Agree to disagree.

That's fair.

[In Exile]

jln.francisco wrote...

He jumped off a building onto the back of a moving creature several hundred feet above ground. I agree in battle you go back to everything you've learned up to that point but unless this is a proven tactic against dragons I don't see why you would even consider doing it.

Plus the Archdemon could fight back, it could swerve, dive, go upside down or just make a very erratic movement just as Riordan jumps onto him.

I can understand him wanting to do it, and I can understand him thinking it might work. But the fact of the matter is it was a longshot he'd even wound the bastard.

That's my point. If you want to down a flying object, you want to hit it with projectiles that aren't people that are vulnerable to "SMUSH" on contact with the ground. Especially when your quiver has only 3 living people within the country border that can actually kill the inhuman abomination that threatens all existence.

[TheRevanchist]

In Exile wrote...

SirOccam wrote...
How about the fact that everyone has to ask your permission to take care of their personal business? "Hey, if it's not too much trouble, and if we have time, do you think we could...?"

I always felt that was more along the lines of a buddy asking if you didn't mind coming over to help you move. I did not feel any particular deference to authority.

No one else ever makes a call for you to go along with. You decide everything your group does. Some of that is empty game mechanics, like choosing which location on the map to travel to in what order, but it IS dealt with at times in-game. Such as Morrigan asking Alistair why he allows you to make all the decisions. Alistair even says "I prefer to follow."

Right, I never denied Alistair wanted to follow your lead as a Warden. But Alistair not being able to make decisions for himself does not make you a leader in any meaningful sense of the world.

Or when Sten questions your actions in Haven, in which you can specifically say "Well, there’s nothing you can do about it. I’m in charge." And your dialogue with Wynne, where you can confide in her about everyone "expecting so much from me." That is the burden I was referring to. You make the hard decisions, and take the flak for them.

I just absolutely didn't see it for feel it in the game. I saw the Sten dialogue as just being a variant of "who are you to talk to me this way," and with Wynne, with everyone as referencing everyone in the world who would benefit from stopping the Blight.

As a person, I'm the type of guy who says "I'm doing [x]. You guys are welcome to come along or screw off." And I felt that was what the Warden did, and everyone just willingly went alone with it, as opposed to defered in some way.

Now, thinking on it, I agree that the intention was for Bioware to make you a leader in more than just a social sense. I just absolutely did not feel that way in-game. It was something they failed to portray, in the same way Bioware seemed to wanted to make you care about the mission and identity of the Grey Wardens but failed with that.

If the Warden isn't in charge, then who is? You certainly don't make decisions democratically.

No one. To me, it was always, the Warden does things, and people either willing come along or do not. But it was a "I'm going to the movies and whoever wants is welcome to come along," vein of social following. That some uncompromising person sets the agenda does not feel like leadership to me.

Just gonna let the Riordan bit go. I think it was a reasonable risk, you don't. Neither of us can prove our side correct. Agree to disagree.

That's fair.

You know you have a point. I never really paid attention to it, but no one honestly says "hey your the leader now" Nor do you see the ability to command. Voice Overs would most certanly help with that issue but even so. But Commander Shepard...thats a leader right there.

[Face of Evil]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Duncan gets owned by some random axe-wielding darkspawn.

Hold on there.

Duncan was in the thick of battle for as long as you were climbing up the Tower of Ishal, and then he solos the same ogre that practically snapped King Cailan in half. He doesn't "get owned" by some axe-wielding darkspawn, he gets killed by a Hurlock Alpha after collapsing from exhaustion and the pain of his wounds.

Duncan was badass.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 09 août 2010 - 06:54 .

[captain.subtle]

Duncan was badass.

He had bedsores?