43 réponses à ce sujet

[keesio74]

So when doing the real grimore quest, I always assumed Morrigan was telling the truth about Flemeth wanting to possess her body. But recently I was using the Toolset and reading the dialogue when you meet Flemeth during the quest. I noticed that in the notes for one of Flemeth's reply's was something like how Flemeth realizes that Morrigan lied to the PC. If that is the case, what is the lie? Is the whole story of Flemeth planning to take possession of Morrigan's body a lie? I find that hard to believe since everywhere else I've read seems to indicate that this is true. What was the lie?

[ArawnNox]

keesio74 wrote...

So when doing the real grimore quest, I always assumed Morrigan was telling the truth about Flemeth wanting to possess her body. But recently I was using the Toolset and reading the dialogue when you meet Flemeth during the quest. I noticed that in the notes for one of Flemeth's reply's was something like how Flemeth realizes that Morrigan lied to the PC. If that is the case, what is the lie? Is the whole story of Flemeth planning to take possession of Morrigan's body a lie? I find that hard to believe since everywhere else I've read seems to indicate that this is true. What was the lie?

Do you ever reveal to Flemeth about knowing her body-hopping? I ask because it could simply be Flemeth assuming Morrigan gave a different sob story.

[phaonica]

I don't trust either of them, really, and would not be surprised by anything they said that turned out to be a lie.

[Zjarcal]

After fully reading all the VO notes in that dialog I'm sticking with my original theory. Morrigan isn't telling the complete truth but Flemeth's lack of denial surely doesn't inspire me to believe that the truth is too far from what Morrigan says.



One of the VO notes for her response to the player asking if she intends to take Morrigan's body is "she finds this to be very funny -- This is the story Morrigan told? How cute! Obviously, she's also NOT answering the question".



It could be that Flemeth does indeed plan to possess Morrigan but it's probably a more involved process than what Morrigan tells the player. Therefore when Morrigan tells the player that she can't be there to fight Flemeth for fear that she'll get possessed right there, it's all a ruse to get someone else to do the fighting for her.



Also, reading Morrigan's VO notes for the dialog where she tells you about Flemeth's plan, nothing in there suggests that she's lying. Almost all the notes are "horrified by the idea" or "this is difficult to talk about".



So I guess it's like Flemeth says...



Warden: I just want the truth.

Flemeth: "The truth!" she says, as if it were nothing! (VO note: the truth is not easily given)

[ArawnNox]

Flemeth IS also insane...

[Sarah1281]

One of the VO notes for her response to the player asking if she intends to take Morrigan's body is "she finds this to be very funny -- This is the story Morrigan told? How cute! Obviously, she's also NOT answering the question".

That could point to this being the truth. She finds it adorable and naive that Morrigan actually told you the real reason instead of making something up much like Morrigan herself is surprised if Loghain/Alistair knows the truth about the ritual.

[keesio74]

I wish I could recall which reply the note was for. I'm on travel right now I won't be able to check for a few days. But I could have sworn that the note was for when I tell her that I know about her plan to possess Morrigan. The VO notes implied that Morrigan lied about it (at least in Flemeth's head).

[Sarah1281]

keesio74 wrote...

I wish I could recall which reply the note was for. I'm on travel right now I won't be able to check for a few days. But I could have sworn that the note was for when I tell her that I know about her plan to possess Morrigan. The VO notes implied that Morrigan lied about it (at least in Flemeth's head).

If it was for that line then she could think Morrigan was lying without either of them doing it. Morrigan found what she said she did in the grimoire about how Flemeth possessed her daughters but she wasn't mentioned as the book was lost before her time. Morrigan's the god-baby's mother not just another daughter to possess and her new plan, whatever that may be, centers around the child. Flemeth could have assumed Morrigan realized this once she found the old grimoire and Morrigan didn't make the connection.

[thegreateski]

Morrigan is lying, Flemmeth isn't talking, and my Warden was sick of being jerked around.



cue swords, spells, and an angry dragon.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Who knows. But usually, when you have two BS stories, the truth is somewhere inbetween, where they overlap.



When you tell Flemeth you know how she extends her lifespan, she asks if you really do, or think you do, or something like that.

[Zjarcal]

The VO note being referred by the OP is, "she knows very well that Morrigan has lied to the player". This is for Flemeth's line "That she does. The question is do you?", which is Flemeth's response when the player says "She knows how you extend your unnatural lifespan".

The VO note I mentioned in my earlier post is for Flemeth's response, "Oh, I do like that", which is given when the warden asks, "Is it true you intend to take Morrigan's body?".

Modifié par Zjarcal, 09 août 2010 - 01:02 .

[Sarah1281]

So she knows that Morrigan knows how she extends her lifespan (which points to Morrigan not having just discovered it in the grimoire but might not mean Morrigan's lying about how it is done) and 'knows' she lied to you even before you tell her what Morrigan told you? Is she psychic now?

[thegreateski]

She's Flemmeth so . . . yeah, probably.

Modifié par thegreateski, 09 août 2010 - 01:15 .

[keesio74]

Zjarcal wrote...

The VO note being referred by the OP is, "she knows very well that Morrigan has lied to the player". This is for Flemeth's line "That she does. The question is do you?", which is Flemeth's response when the player says "She knows how you extend your unnatural lifespan".

Yes, that's the one. Thanks.

[maxernst]

Isn't Flemeth psychic? Didn't she foretell the future for Maric...something about Loghain betraying him three times?



One thing I've wondered about is whether Flemeth is really an abomination. She's far more complex than any demon; I don't think you can account for her behavior from a single primal principle. I'm thinking she might be more like Wynne...though I can understand why Morrigan would be afraid of "sharing" her body with another entity.

[Sarah1281]

jln.francisco wrote...

maxernst wrote...
One thing I've wondered about is whether Flemeth is really an abomination. She's far more complex than any demon; I don't think you can account for her behavior from a single primal principle. I'm thinking she might be more like Wynne...though I can understand why Morrigan would be afraid of "sharing" her body with another entity.

I've wondered the same thing. All the other abominations in the game have a very paticular speach pattern from what I remember. "This is the Drysden, the Warden Commander, all these things." Connor says things to similar affect. Flemeth speaks plainly but in riddles. The only other abomination like her is Uldred and we never really see him act like an abomination. There's no mindless killing or wanton destruction. He takes mages and forces demons into them through Blood Magic.The resulting creature then goes out and starts killing but Uldred stays in the Horrowing Chamber indifferent to it all. 

Maybe it all depends on the demon doing the possessing. 

Uldred's demon is a pride one and those are supposed to be the most powerful so perhaps they're the only ones who can pull off a less obvious possession.

[maxernst]

Uldred looks and sounds human, but he still seems to be a much less complex character in terms of motivations than Flemeth. It's really only rage and hunger demons that opt for mindless violence. I think Uldred's demon is similar to Conor's--they both are trying to become greater powers in the world. Uldred uses demons to try and expand his power, while Conor uses the undead, but I think their goals are pretty much the same.

[Sarah1281]

jln.francisco wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Uldred's demon is a pride one and those are supposed to be the most powerful so perhaps they're the only ones who can pull off a less obvious possession.

But why force others to become abominations? Is that common with demons? All the other demons merely released their kind into the world and then they fend for themselves. Uldred actually forces demons into mages in a blood magic ritual. 

While their consent is clearly invalid as it's under a great deal of duress, the fact that the abomination creation we saw involved torturing a mage until he agreed makes me think that the host can't fight the possession or it won't take.

We know that Uldred started everything to get the Circle out of Chantry control and that Connor was trying to save his father and, despite having no real reason to, both demons do this. Connor says he saved Eamon's life and Uldred crafts an army to do battle with the Templars.

[Krytheos]

This actually brings up a question of mine. During the quest, I had indeed said that my Mage 'wanted' to take the Grimoire for herself, but..I am currently confused as to how this proceeds after that point, and extremely curious as to how it -will- proceed. I am entirely unsure at this point, and..well.



Very very lost, and confused. @@;

[Zjarcal]

 I think the option to tell Morrigan that you intend to keep the grimoire to yourself (should you have told Flemeth that in the confrontation) doesn't show up in the vanilla dialog. You'll have to use the Morrigan Restoration Patch to get that option.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 09 août 2010 - 03:38 .

[Krytheos]

FFFFUUUUUUU-- Ugh. I hate that, really I do. I know the PC version is superior, but my PC is complete and utter rubbish. Makes that whole 'killing Flemeth' thing unnecessary then, for my Mage, since she would keep the Grimoire to herself. But of course. D: Sigh.