163 réponses à ce sujet

[OniGanon]

It's real simple. Rather than going with the Claymore to bolster your strength, you chose a long range weapon to shore up your weakness. The Viper shores up that weakness better than any other weapon in the game.

[Graunt]

JaegerBane wrote...

OniGanon wrote...

The whole point of taking the Mattock (or Viper) is to have a weapon to deal with the situations that can't or shouldn't be dealt with using Charge.

Shouldn't? Who said anything about choosing a weapon that 'shouldn't' be used in Charge?

The point behind choosing the mattock is that you get a rifle that can *both* function as a long range piece *and* function well enough at very short range. Going for the Viper effectively forces you to use it purely for long range fighting no matter what your ammo supply or your situation is.

The fact that you can't use it at short range is a characteristic of the viper, not the choice.

You can hip-fire destroy Scions with the Viper.  When you factor in Inferno rounds and it's RoF, it's a lot better than the Carnifex for taking down heavily armored opponents up close.  There's absolutely no reason why you can't use it at close range.  It completely mows down Scions and is also much better for scope-removing armor from Husks/Aboms when they are rushing you from far to mid range.  I took it specifically for the scope, and then decided to see how it would work up close after fully upgraded, and it's beastly.  Now maybe the Matock would perform similarly up close, but not having a scope is what makes it the clear loser for a Vanguard.  I don't need an AR for close range at all, and the Locust, Carnifex or Viper are fine for mid.

Modifié par Graunt, 20 novembre 2010 - 10:24 .

[sinosleep]

Where you been Graunt?

[Ahglock]

I say the viper. The mattock is adding gravy to your gravy, the viper is adding gravy onto your chicken fried steak.



Basically as a vanguard you already have the short and medium range covered to an awesome degree the mattock is great in that arena but you already have it covered so well it does not add much. The viper adds awesome to your long range game the one area you don't normally do squat.



On the downside I despise scope aiming of powers and refuse to take sniper rifles on any power based classes. But that isn't a power balance thing, just irritation.

[Graunt]

sinosleep wrote...

Where you been Graunt?

Played this game almost every day for about six weeks straight, then got majorly burnt out.  I stopped playing until all of the DLC was released too so that I'd have a lot to return to, not just small segments at a time.  The new weapons are "interesting" (especially the Projector), but for a Vanguard I'm still using the same old setup and for the Infiltrator I might take a Shotgun now, but I don't know yet.  

One thing is for sure, the Kestrel armor may as well just be called "Vanguard", "Soldier" or "Sentinel" armor.  It's even better for them than what the Blood Dragon is for Adepts and pretty much the only armor worth wearing for those classes when you count total contribution.

[Simbacca]

either choice kills fine if forced to charge with it.

Mattock Charging during SM
Viper Charging during DCS

[Kurt M.]

Maybe it's because I have to try a bit more the Mattock (nearly didn't touched it...maybe in this next playthough...), but I prefer the Viper. Why? Because assault rifles just seems to me a redundancy for Vanguards' own SMG, and because sniper rifles covers the only defect the Vanguards have: long range combat.



That way you've shotgun for close combat, SMG/pistols for mid, and sniper rifles for long range. And (maybe because I have used it very little), the Mattock seems nothing else to me than another mid-range...

[ScroguBlitzen]

I think the case here for using the Viper to cover your "long range" weakness is being overstated. Charge can cover long range very quickly turning it into short range. The only mobs that really fall into a category of long range are unchargeable ones and they are very rare.

The Mattock is a devastating weapon on a Vanguard. Not so much for using as a medium range weapon but for using in conjunction with charge. At point blank range it does two to three times the damage of the Viper and shoots faster as well.

Modifié par ScroguBlitzen, 23 novembre 2010 - 09:26 .

[Kurt M.]

You don't Charge against a group of 4-5 enemies situated at long range, either dispersed in diverse angles and covered, or packed together in a bunch. Not at least on Insanity, unless you're a VERY GOOD Vanguard. And even being one of these, there are lots of situations where it doesn't matter how good you're; that tactic can just blow up in your face. Viper can weaken them enough for you to be safe to Charge.

Besides, there's nothing better at close range than a shotgun. Even at Insanity, 1 headshot with the Eviscerator or the Claymore is a 1-hit kill.

Anyway, it's more a matter of personal preferences than anything else.

Modifié par Gladiador2, 23 novembre 2010 - 09:53 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

Gladiador2 wrote...

You don't Charge against a group of 4-5 enemies situated at long range, either dispersed in diverse angles and covered, or packed together in a bunch. Not at least on Insanity, unless you're a VERY GOOD Vanguard.

You only get to be a good vanguard by charging groups of 4-5 enemies and seeing if you can survive.  After a few hundred deaths you get the hang of it.  If you really need to weaken a group at range then you can throw an Area Reave just as easy from yourself or Samara or use Mordins Incineration Blast.

Don't get me wrong though, I think the Viper is an excellent weapon and much more fairly balanced than the Mattock.  I just think the case for needing it at long range is MUCH weaker with a Vanguard then it is with other classes that lack the ability to close ground quickly. 

[Kurt M.]

I've Charged even against a group of 6 (Eclipse mercs) and survived (on Insanity), but I repeat: no matter how good you're, luck is an important factor when doing that. And you're not always lucky.



And even without that factor, sniper rifles just make the Vanguard the most versatile class of all IMO ^^ It's just endless fun

[ScroguBlitzen]

 Uploaded a quick video of my Vanguard using a Mattock.  Single take, NG+, not all upgrades yet.  To me the Mattock is just overpowered.  It is almost the best bonus weapon for EVERY class.  That's why I don't generally make videos with it.

Mattock Vanguard at Weyrloc

[Graunt]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

I think the case here for using the Viper to cover your "long range" weakness is being overstated. Charge can cover long range very quickly turning it into short range. The only mobs that really fall into a category of long range are unchargeable ones and they are very rare.

The Mattock is a devastating weapon on a Vanguard. Not so much for using as a medium range weapon but for using in conjunction with charge. At point blank range it does two to three times the damage of the Viper and shoots faster as well.

Too bad you can't charge rocket launchers that are up on ledges, nor can you instantly charge collector platforms or other areas that are swarmed with collectors right away.  If you have Samara/Thane (or Miranda) using the Viper is the fastest way to setup a Warp bomb.  This is Mattock vs the Viper.  If you are understating the use of the Viper for it's range, then why would you ever need the Mattock when you could simply charge and use a shotgun? Maybe if you're lucky enough you could get headshots off just the same with the Mattock, but for that you would need to be at least medium range.

You only get to be a good vanguard by charging groups of 4-5 enemies and
seeing if you can survive.  After a few hundred deaths you get the hang
of it.

You aren't charging 4-5 enemies and living without charging again without doing Warp bombs.

Mattock Vanguard at Weyrloc

You can get similar performance out of a Scimitar and it's at almost the exact same range.

Modifié par Graunt, 24 novembre 2010 - 01:40 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

Graunt wrote...

You aren't charging 4-5 enemies and living without charging again without doing Warp bombs.

Not sure what you mean by "not charging again".  Of course you would die if you don't charge again.  But yes, you absolutely can charge 4-5 enemies and live without doing Warp bombs.  Cryo Ammo allows you to use the first one you charge as temporary cover before moving on to the rest.  I've got some videos if you're interested.

Graunt wrote...

Mattock Vanguard at Weyrloc

You can get similar performance out of a Scimitar and it's at almost the exact same range.

Yes, the speed is about the same with the Scimitar, but it's MUCH easier with the Mattock.  Are you joking about saying the Mattock and Scimitar have the same range?????  The EFFECTIVE range of the Scimitar is MUCH less than the Mattocks.  Maybe you're thinking of the Eviscerator, but the Mattock still has a longer effective range.

[sinosleep]

There are situations where while charging can most certainly be done, it just feels like I'm charging to prove that I can as opposed to getting any real fun or effectiveness out of it.

Often times harbinger does this aoe attack (I know it's not the damned fireball it's DIFFERENT) that he only does when you're up close, scions do the same thing, etc, etc, etc. I'd rather just shoot em with a sniper rifle since they tend to be armored enemies and leave the charging to the standard mobs and losers like legionnaires.

For me it's a combination of both the range, and the fact that at range the viper positively WRECKS the mattock against armor for any class that doesn't have adrenaline rush as a class ability.

[edit here] And as far as whether the gun is OP or not, I've done a fair amount of testing with it in my comparison vids and the only class I'd consider the weapon OP on is the soldier. Outside of AR it's just a really good gun. It's only with AR that it becomes the hand of God.

Modifié par sinosleep, 24 novembre 2010 - 05:36 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

I actually prefer the Viper on the Vanguard. I think it makes them more versatile and more fun. I just don't think it makes them more powerful than the Mattock. I can absolutely destroy things in seconds with the Mattock at point blank range. Sure you run out of ammo quick, but then you switch back to Scimitar for awhile and all is good. Reave and the sniper pistol can handle the occasional things at range just fine.

[Ahglock]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

 Uploaded a quick video of my Vanguard using a Mattock.  Single take, NG+, not all upgrades yet.  To me the Mattock is just overpowered.  It is almost the best bonus weapon for EVERY class.  That's why I don't generally make videos with it.

Mattock Vanguard at Weyrloc

I am not sure it is overall overpowered.  But its stats seem to make it the best of its class.  Every weapon in that pack is in most cases the best in its class stat wise.  But stat wise the best doens't always mean it is the best.  But hey I actually prefer the predator to the phalanx and hand cannon so what do I know.  That damn laser sight throws off my aiming in the 3rd person view.  And while it does less damage it's rate of fire and ammo count makes it overall a better gun for me at least after some upgrades. 

[Kronner]

Vanguards do not have long-range weakness at all, because there is no long-range in the whole game.
I have 8 Vanguards, all with the same weapon. I have yet to feel anything close to long-range weakness in any of those playthroughs despite not having AR or SR in any of them.
Charging Harbinger and Scion is safe, they can't do anything to you if you use your powers and squad properly do disrupt their attacks, so why would I sit back if I can blast them from point blank range?
And Viper has that, for me, annoying scope that absolutely takes me away from the game and I see nothing but a small area in that scope. One of the reasons why SRs (except for the Widow) are my least favourite weapons in the game.
Mattock is good enough for any range this game has to offer anyways, and it gets distance damage bonus, unlike any SR. Hell, Locust or Predator are good enough for any range in this game too.
If Mattock wasn't so fooking ugly, I'd probably mod it to my Vanguard for the ultimate Scottish combo, Mattock+Claymore and use just these 2 weapons.

Modifié par Kronner, 24 novembre 2010 - 08:47 .

[Kurt M.]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

 Uploaded a quick video of my Vanguard using a Mattock.  Single take, NG+, not all upgrades yet.  To me the Mattock is just overpowered.  It is almost the best bonus weapon for EVERY class.  That's why I don't generally make videos with it.

Mattock Vanguard at Weyrloc

The Claymore can kill most enemies in 1 shot. And Eviscerator in 2, or 1 + a bit of melee. Both are much faster than using the Mattock as you show in that video.

Having shotguns makes using the Mattock for close combat either pointless or redundant. At least in terms of effecttiveness.

[Tony Gunslinger]

Both weapons can soften enemies from a distance before you Charge, the Viper can deal more but you would probably want to switch weapons before you Charge, whereas you can still Charge very well with the Mattock, better than Charging with the Viper. It's a hard call... either you like to be clinical and efficient or you prefer flexibility.

[ScroguBlitzen]

@Gladiator2- Yep, I'm not claiming that the Mattock is the fastest, but only that it is by far the easiest. As Tony points out you can soften up the enemy from a distance very quickly with it (just like with the Viper), but with the Mattock once you charge them you can also dish out a ton of damage very quickly at point blank range. The video I put up was a quick single take without warming up or practicing with it beforehand at all. Really easy to smash everyone with it. If you want more impressive runs with it, then I'll warm up and take a couple different takes, but I can assure you from over 100 suicide runs with both the Scimitar and the Mattock that the Mattock is the superior weapon on a Vanguard because it matches or slightly exceeds the Scimitar at point blank range, but adds in the ability to crush enemies from medium range as well.

[Kurt M.]

I'd say you already have it easy enough with the time slowdown that Heavy Charge provides...but whatever works for you...

Plus, the Scimitar is not known for excelling at close range. That's for Claymore / Eviscerator.

Modifié par Gladiador2, 24 novembre 2010 - 08:14 .

[Graunt]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...
Not sure what you mean by "not charging again".  Of course you would die if you don't charge again.  But yes, you absolutely can charge 4-5 enemies and live without doing Warp bombs.  Cryo Ammo allows you to use the first one you charge as temporary cover before moving on to the rest.  I've got some videos if you're interested.

Your initial statement made me think you were expecting some kind of higher skill than what is required i.e. Charge and then start meleeing while shooting enemies around you, setting them on fire and somehow live without doing anything obvious...like Charging again.  That's not really complicated or hard, but it's also not always necessary at all.

Yes, the speed is about the same with the Scimitar, but it's MUCH easier with the Mattock.  Are you joking about saying the Mattock and Scimitar have the same range?????  The EFFECTIVE range of the Scimitar is MUCH less than the Mattocks.  Maybe you're thinking of the Eviscerator, but the Mattock still has a longer effective range.

I never said the range of the Scimitar and Mattock were the same, I said you can get similar performance from almost the same range.  You aren't that far away in that video, and it's not a very good argument on why a Vanguard should take the Mattock over the Viper when with just a few more feet away you would be in shotgun range anyway.

As far as the Mattock feeling "too strong" in general, having been playing a Soldier now it does make the class even easier than it was prior to that DLC pack -- borderline "god mode", but the ammo on it is very lacking.  I'm often running out and having to switch to other weapons in long fights, and I don't remember ever having that issue with the Revenant and it seemed to kill just as fast.  I honestly don't want the Widow anyway.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 novembre 2010 - 12:35 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

@graunt. A few more feet would put you within the krogans shotgun range as well.

[Graunt]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

@graunt. A few more feet would put you within the krogans shotgun range as well.

So?  That's what Charge is for.  It's not worth giving up the versatility of the Viper (range + AP) just to beat a Krogan easier -- considering they aren't even that hard to begin with.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 novembre 2010 - 12:36 .