163 réponses à ce sujet

[ScroguBlitzen]

Dude. Charge is on cooldown sometimes. If you'll read my above posts then you'll see that I agree with the vipers versatility. I just don't think it's more powerful. Read Kronners comments concerning long range in this game. There is no real threat to your life from long range that exceeds a point blank krogan.

[Kurt M.]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

Dude. Charge is on cooldown sometimes. If you'll read my above posts then you'll see that I agree with the vipers versatility. I just don't think it's more powerful. Read Kronners comments concerning long range in this game. There is no real threat to your life from long range that exceeds a point blank krogan.

Really?

I've began a new game (Insanity), and I currently have no upgrades. In that situation I always hate some parts of the game, for example in Mordin's recruitment, when you first fight the vorcha before reaching the clinic. Charging in that situation is basically a suicide, and SMG's and even the Phalanx are outranged.

But I was in a NG+, and I already had sniper rifle training + the Viper. Results? Easiest combat of my life.

The final battles in Horizon (before the Praetorian shows up), and while escaping the Collector vessel are other examples of long range combats present in the game. And there are many more.

[Kronner]

Except that you can Charge in all those situations, there is enough cover everywhere. Especially against those Vorcha, you can Charge the farthest enemy, kill, take cover, thus stop enemy spawns, Charge the remaining Vorcha and a couple of krogans. Done. Why would I use SR, while playing Vanguard, if I can flank them and use my shotgun? The Horizon last battle (before Preatorian) is Vanguard's playground. There is cover everywhere, great flanking opportunities etc.

Apart from the Praetorian fight, but I am not gonna take SR just to kill 2 Praetorians in the game. Besides, Tempest + Predator make short work of the Praetorian anyway, not as fast as Tempest + Viper, obviously, but I don't mind. There are only 2 Praetorians afterall. And, for "long" range combat you can also use powers, so SR is absolutely redundant for all my Vanguards.

[Kurt M.]

snip

Modifié par Gladiador2, 25 novembre 2010 - 10:42 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

Gladiador2 wrote...

I've began a new game (Insanity), and I currently have no upgrades. In that situation I always hate some parts of the game, for example in Mordin's recruitment, when you first fight the vorcha before reaching the clinic. Charging in that situation is basically a suicide, and SMG's and even the Phalanx are outranged.

SMG's and Phalanx outranged?  Not true if you flank left, but also irrelevant to this thread.  Is the Mattock outranged in this situation?  No.  Is this section easy with the Viper?  Yes.  Is it just as easy with the Mattock? Yes.  Is it much harder without either? Not really, two pistol shots in the head of the Pyros and then Mirandas Overload.  Everything other than the Pyros IS chargeable.

Gladiador2 wrote...
But I was in a NG+, and I already had sniper rifle training + the Viper. Results? Easiest combat of my life.

Agreed.  Very easy, but that means nothing unless you contrast that with the Mattock which is the point of the thread.  Play the same section with the Mattock and tell us how hard it was.

Gladiador2 wrote...
The final battles in Horizon (before the Praetorian shows up), and while escaping the Collector vessel are other examples of long range combats present in the game. And there are many more.

As Kronner points out this is one of the best parts of the game for charging.  Personally I consider it one of the most fun sections for tactical charging.  You have boxes and crates everywhere, if you set up your squad mates on the side then the swarms focus them.  You can charge around on the outskirts taking out one collector after another.  Great fun, I'll have to post a video of this if I get a chance.

[PrinceLionheart]

After playing both, my stance is go with the Viper. The Mattock overlaps with the niche already filled by the Locust.

[Kurt M.]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

SMG's and Phalanx outranged?  Not true if you flank left, but also irrelevant to this thread.  Is the Mattock outranged in this situation?  No.  Is this section easy with the Viper?  Yes.  Is it just as easy with the Mattock? Yes.  Is it much harder without either? Not really, two pistol shots in the head of the Pyros and then Mirandas Overload.  Everything other than the Pyros IS chargeable.

Yeah, try to flank left when there's no cover, and the little there is leaves your a** to the flamethrowers.

And the pyros can't be overloaded until their armor is ripped off. Which way is easier to do that, with the Mattock, which is nearly outranged from the original cover, and you must close by to secure success, or with the Viper, where you can stand in the balcony in top of the attacking Blue Suns and slaugher them all without moving from that position and from cover?

Agreed.  Very easy, but that means nothing unless you contrast that with the Mattock which is the point of the thread.

I thought I was already doing that, all this time...

As Kronner points out this is one of the best parts of the game for charging.  Personally I consider it one of the most fun sections for tactical charging.  You have boxes and crates everywhere, if you set up your squad mates on the side then the swarms focus them.  You can charge around on the outskirts taking out one collector after another.  Great fun, I'll have to post a video of this if I get a chance.

You can charge. But charge to a bad angle or miss an enemy in your strategy and you're basically dead. Even more on Insanity and even more on Horizon, where you haven't by far many damage protection upgrades.

[Kronner]

Gladiador2 wrote...

You can charge. But charge to a bad angle or miss an enemy in your strategy and you're basically dead. Even more on Insanity and even more on Horizon, where you haven't by far many damage protection upgrades.

Isn't that the point of the Vanguard class? Precisely that sentece I bolded is the reason why I like NG+ better than NG.
Unfortunately after Horizon, NG+ is arguably easier than NG, too bad.

[ScroguBlitzen]

Yep. At this point Gladiator is just listing reasons why the Viper is useful to a poorly played Vanguard. I have no argument with that, I'm sure it helps him tons. The original question though is which is more effective and the context of the OP clearly implies that he considers close range effectiveness primarily. I LOVE the Viper on the Vanguard, really do. If the question is which one is more fun and versatile then I will pick Viper, but when the question is which one is more powerful or which one can let you drop pretty much any enemy quickly and safely from almost any range then the answer is Mattock.

[Graunt]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

Dude. Charge is on cooldown sometimes. If you'll read my above posts then you'll see that I agree with the vipers versatility. I just don't think it's more powerful. Read Kronners comments concerning long range in this game. There is no real threat to your life from long range that exceeds a point blank krogan.

I'm not wanting to argue about this, it's entirely opinion based anyway so there is no "correct" answer, and that's kind of the beauty of choice.  I prefer the Scimitar over the Claymore in almost every scenario, so for me it comes down to AR vs SR, and for the way I play I need something as a backup for those situations that are long range -- which despite claims to the contrary there are still enough to warrant a weapon with more range than a shotgun or tediously waiting on companion cooldowns to refresh every 9 seconds.

The Mattock is an undeniably great weapon, I'm certainly not arguing it's effectiveness, and if not for the fact that it's a weapon that's redundant with a shotgun at close range and not nearly as good as a sniper at very far,   I would probably use it as well.  Honestly though, it just takes something away from the Vanguard playstyle when you don't even need to charge anymore except to refill your shields and also feels a lot less visceral. 

I am just about to reach the collector ship with my Soldier, so I'll be picking up the Revenant to see what I see in terms of accuracy.  The Mattock made the pre-ship parts "ez-mode" with this already easy class, but the ammo limitation gets annoying, and IIRC the Revenant is more damage under Adrush, especially with ammo powers.

Modifié par Graunt, 25 novembre 2010 - 08:10 .

[Kronner]

I'd certainly like to hear about those long range fights and where to find them
Sure SR or AR is an upgrade over SMG, but Mattock is plenty good for the few fights where Charge is unavailable. Do you need scope to shoot enemy 40m away? Even Locust or Tempest is good enough.

Mattock crushes anything under Adrenaline Rush, but Rev is still pretty cool!

Modifié par Kronner, 25 novembre 2010 - 08:22 .

[sinosleep]

Graunt wrote...

I am just about to reach the collector ship with my Soldier, so I'll be picking up the Revenant to see what I see in terms of accuracy.  The Mattock made the pre-ship parts "ez-mode" with this already easy class, but the ammo limitation gets annoying, and IIRC the Revenant is more damage under Adrush, especially with ammo powers.

The mattock is the highest dps weapon under AR, it's not even close.



The damage is so ridiculous I think it's grossly over powered, to the point where on soldiers I don't bother to use the weapon as it's made even worse with ammo powers and the limited ammo of the mattock is kind of a red herring. It doesn't mean much that it only holds 64 rounds when you get like 20 rounds per thermal clip.

[ScroguBlitzen]

Sounds like we're close to a thanksgiving consensus on this.

How about we agree to this:

Pick the Viper over the Mattock. It's more fun, provides more variety and will give you a break from charging all the time. Just don't pretend it's more powerful.


Edit- @sinosleep, it's worth noting that the Mattocks overpoweredness under AR is mirrored briefly for Vanguards with Heavy Charge time dilation.  That's a big part of what makes it so sick on Vanguards as well.  You're getting a brief AR time slowdown AND your'e getting 200% point blank damage with it that the Viper lacks.

Modifié par ScroguBlitzen, 25 novembre 2010 - 08:52 .

[sinosleep]

It depends on what you are calling more powerful.



Against armor, with NO headshots it took it down in HALF the time. On non-soldiers the viper absolutely CRUSHES the mattock against armor from anything that's not point bank range. Sure the mattock gets an edge at point blank range, but at that point you should be using a shotgun any way IMO. If not it is an advantage though. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 25 novembre 2010 - 08:54 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

@sinosleep- By more powerful, I mean more powerful on a well played Vanguard. Long range just doesn't synergize as well with a Vanguard as short-medium do, because your shield recharging power closes you right on an enemy. You can either stay there with a Shotgun, or with an assault rifle you can choose to stay, or back up a bit (for instance to dodge harbinger attacks).

[sinosleep]

Have you never simply chosen not to charge something? I really don't see why people think it's so evil to simply NOT CHARGE occasionally to take advantage of the sniper rifle's advantages. When I have the sniper rifle I tend not to bother charging harbinger at all so I don't need to worry about hitting him while backing up to avoid damage. I just go ahead and kill him from far away while dodging from cover with the viper since it takes down armor in no time at all.

I get plenty of charging done against other enemies. For guys like scions, harbinger, etc, I just sit behind cover and kill em in no time flat with the viper. I don't need it to mesh with charging cause I tend to know when I'm going to charge and switch weapons accordingly.

Modifié par sinosleep, 25 novembre 2010 - 09:08 .

[Kronner]

sinosleep wrote...

Have you never simply chosen not to charge something? I really don't see why people think it's so evil to simply NOT CHARGE occasionally to take advantage of the sniper rifle's advantages. When I have the sniper rifle I tend not to bother charging harbinger at all so I don't need to worry about hitting him while backing up to avoid damage. I just go ahead and kill him from far away while dodging from cover with the viper since it takes down armor in no time at all.

I get plenty of charging done against other enemies. For guys like scions, harbinger, etc, I just sit behind cover and kill em in no time flat with the viper. I don't need it to mesh with charging cause I tend to know when I'm going to charge and switch weapons accordingly.

Certainly a good tactics!
Personally, I do plenty of that with a Soldier class, so I want to make Vanguard as different as possible, which is why I try to flank/charge anyone I can, even though I risk and might  take health damage or in the worst case die.

[sinosleep]

Kronner wrote...

Certainly a good tactics!
Personally, I do plenty of that with a Soldier class, so I want to make Vanguard as different as possible, which is why I try to flank/charge anyone I can, even though I risk and might  take health damage or in the worst case die.

I know what you're saying, but it's like I've got the opposite going on in my head. I played for so long in a charge everything, ignore squadmates fashion just to prove to the haters that the vanguard class didn't suck that nowadays I guess I'm just over it. I warp bomb all the time and if it's easier to snipe something than to charge it I tend to just go ahead and snipe it. I still charge more things than not, I'm just not so anal about it any more.

[ScroguBlitzen]

@sinosleep- Read my comments and you'll see I agree with you about not always charging, killing things from a distance etc. I PREFER the Viper. My only argument is if someone claims it is inherently more powerful than the Mattock on a Vanguard. It is not.

Here is the main argument we're seeing in favor of the Viper being more powerful than the Mattock.

1. The Viper is more powerful at long range. (Everyone agrees with this.)
2. I like to fight at long range sometimes.
3. Therefore the Viper is more powerful than the Mattock.

A Vanguard at long range with a Viper is NO MORE EFFECTIVE than an Adept, Sentinel or Engineer at long range with a Viper. A Vanguard at short to medium range with a Mattock who is mixing in charges is a God. The counter to this seems to be to point out that you already have a Scimitar for short range, but the Mattock provides more flexibility when backpedalling after a charge to medium range, when shooting to deshield an opponent BEFORE charging in order to launch them, provides more damage during the post-charge time dilation AND still provides a second ammo type. You can just blast through your Mattock ammo without being conservative and then jump over to the Scimitar and do the same. Meanwhile if you have the Viper it's just sitting on your back waiting for the 3 times in the whole game where it's marginally more useful.

Modifié par ScroguBlitzen, 25 novembre 2010 - 09:33 .

[Kronner]

sinosleep wrote...

I know what you're saying, but it's
like I've got the opposite going on in my head. I played for so long in
a charge everything, ignore squadmates fashion just to prove to the
haters that the vanguard class didn't suck that nowadays I guess I'm
just over it. I warp bomb all the time and if it's easier to snipe
something than to charge it I tend to just go ahead and snipe it. I
still charge more things than not, I'm just not so anal about it any
more.

I've started to warpbomb a lot recently too..slam bombs are priceless

It's not a question of "Vanguard MUST charge all the time or else..", just that Charge is way too much fun for me, even after all this time I am not sick of it.
I have yet to brought myselt to take SR, because it means I'd have to give up Claymore, and that's just not gonna happen.
Also I think that people often overstate the number of "long range" fights and the need for AR or SR, but that's just my experience though.

So I'd just pick Mattock over Viper anytime if I had to. I hate the scope.

Modifié par Kronner, 25 novembre 2010 - 09:43 .

[sinosleep]

Except it's not just 3 times, it's ANY time you actively choose to fight from range. Hence why I brought up the whole not charging being viewed as evil or something. You are grossly exaggerating the number of times during which it's possible to sit back snipe. Harbinger, scions, praetorians, YMIR mechs, gunships, the list goes on and on and on.

[ScroguBlitzen]

sinosleep wrote...

Except it's not just 3 times, it's ANY time you actively choose to fight from range.

That's my point exactly.  You can CHOOSE to fight from range if you want, and if you do then the Viper will be marginally more useful than the Mattock.  But you can't make an argument that because you choose specifically to fight from range therefore the Viper is more powerful generally.  If all you're trying to say is that YOU prefer the Viper because YOU prefer to fight from range then I have no argument.

But if you wish to maintain that the Viper is more powerful generally than the Mattock then you will need more than I CHOOSE to fight at range.  You will need to show that you NEED to fight at range or at least that fighting at range is more effective than fighting up close.

As I pointed out above, you're argument is 1. Viper is better at range.  2. I like to fight at range.  3. Therefore Viper is better.

[sinosleep]

It's not about preferring to fight at range, it's about finding another weapon to use at close range redundant. I don't and never will use the mattock at close range cause I have shotguns that I have practically NEVER run out of ammo for to use for that express purpose.

So the only thing I need from the collector ship is an upgrade from range. The viper is better than the mattock for that. That's the end of the line for me.

[edit] Basically there's no "overall" more powerful as it depends entirely on what you will be doing with the weapon.

Modifié par sinosleep, 25 novembre 2010 - 10:13 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

I don't think the Mattock is redundant at close range. I put Cryo on the Scimitar and Incendiary on the Mattock. Shotgun vs Barriered or Shielded mobs. Mattock vs Armored mobs or Harbinger. They both complement each other very well at short ranges and the Mattock still functions well at long ranges. I admit that the Mattock is worse at those long ranges, but it's availability as a backup close combat weapon with amazing stopping power more than makes up for the difference.

[sinosleep]

On standards mobs I don't see the mattock making any difference as they don't have enough defenses to bother the shotguns in the first place, on anything that does have enough defenses to where it takes noticeably more shots from the shotgun then I snipe it. So for me it's redundant.