163 réponses à ce sujet

[ScroguBlitzen]

Well we're not making too much progress on this with just talk. Let's run some time trials. Vanguard with Viper vs Vanguard with Mattock. No health damage, No heavy weapons, No squad powers, No warp explosions. Pick any section of the game that takes about 5-10 min to complete and favors sniper rifle.

[sinosleep]

Way too much of a pain in the ass. I know from my weapon comparison vids that there are WAY too many variables to get any relevant data out of doing a whole level and trying to compare it. Enemies don't always spawn, you might get hit by a delaying rocket on one run and not on another, missed shots, etc, etc, etc. It's why I do all my comparison vids in a controlled environment. I KNOW what YMIR mechs will do and when they will do it. Can't say the same for all the other stuff in this game.

[ScroguBlitzen]

Not talking about an entire mission, just a 5-10 minute section of one. Anyone interested can run multiple tries on the section both with Viper and Mattock. With a large enough sample set, then the effect from random variability is reduced.

[Graunt]

Warp bombs are why I have a love/hate view on squad Cryo.  Also, the Revenant vs Mattock for a Soldier was based partially off of Sinosleep's "Rambo" video and the fact that I'm constantly running out of ammo on extended fights using soley the Mattock. The Mattock also has a higher bonus against Armor over the Revenant, and most enemies have either shields or barriers.

And I guess ammo powers that deal +x% weapon damage are just based off your normal shot damage with a particular weapon anyway, but what about Cryo; is that a %chance to freeze based on the damage dealt or is RoF all that matters?

[Omega-202]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

Not talking about an entire mission, just a 5-10 minute section of one. Anyone interested can run multiple tries on the section both with Viper and Mattock. With a large enough sample set, then the effect from random variability is reduced.

You'd need to propose a section where the difference between the two would actually matter.  
As we all know, 80+% of a Vanguard's kills are usually from Charge/Shotgun gameplay.  

[sinosleep]

Graunt wrote...

Warp bombs are why I have a love/hate view on squad Cryo.  Also, the Revenant vs Mattock for a Soldier was based partially off of Sinosleep's "Rambo" video and the fact that I'm constantly running out of ammo on extended fights using soley the Mattock. The Mattock also has a higher bonus against Armor over the Revenant, and most enemies have either shields or barriers.

And I guess ammo powers that deal +x% weapon damage are just based off your normal shot damage with a particular weapon anyway, but what about Cryo; is that a %chance to freeze based on the damage dealt or is RoF all that matters?

Don't get me wrong, I find the revenant to be INFINITELY more fun, and it's easily my go to weapon for the soldier. I was just replying to the DPS aspect of the post I quoted. Sorry if I misread it.

[ScroguBlitzen]

Omega-202 wrote...

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

Not talking about an entire mission, just a 5-10 minute section of one. Anyone interested can run multiple tries on the section both with Viper and Mattock. With a large enough sample set, then the effect from random variability is reduced.

You'd need to propose a section where the difference between the two would actually matter.  
As we all know, 80+% of a Vanguard's kills are usually from Charge/Shotgun gameplay.  

I'm asking those who claim the Viper is more powerful on a Vanguard than the Mattock to propose the section that they think best highlights it's advantages.  Does anyone really think the Viper is more powerful and want to name a section of the game that is faster with the Viper?  If not, then it seems that the Viper may well be a safer and more versatile choice, but not faster or more powerful.

[sinosleep]

Why don't you just make two videos yourself? I mean that's yet another variable that would make it rather pointless for me (a PC player) to make a comparison vid when you're on a 360.

[ScroguBlitzen]

sinosleep wrote...

Why don't you just make two videos yourself? I mean that's yet another variable that would make it rather pointless for me (a PC player) to make a comparison vid when you're on a 360.

I plan on making two videos myself, and I recommend others do as well.  I'm not so convinced of my position that I won't test it.  Any suggested area?

Edit-  I also recommended no using squad powers to minimize PCs only significant advantage with hotkeys.

Modifié par ScroguBlitzen, 26 novembre 2010 - 06:03 .

[Omega-202]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

I'm asking those who claim the Viper is more powerful on a Vanguard than the Mattock to propose the section that they think best highlights it's advantages.  Does anyone really think the Viper is more powerful and want to name a section of the game that is faster with the Viper?  If not, then it seems that the Viper may well be a safer and more versatile choice, but not faster or more powerful.

If I had to make a call on the section, I'd say NG+ for Mordin's recruitment "Fan reactivation" finale.  Lots of long distance combat at a point in the game where a NG+ player would not want to be doing a lot of Charging due to a lack of durability upgrades.  

There are plenty of un-Chargeable "heavies" and long halls where both long rifles come in handy.  You don't have to worry about the research upgrade differential for armor penetration because you don't have Mordin yet and the base armor damage bonus for the two is relatively similar.  

The problem with Xbox testing is that if you don't have Gibbs, you'll have some trouble taking the "squadmate" factor out of the equation.  The difference between an alive Miranda or Zaeed and their dead versions just due to dumb luck is too huge to ignore.  

[ScroguBlitzen]

Omega-202 wrote...

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

I'm asking those who claim the Viper is more powerful on a Vanguard than the Mattock to propose the section that they think best highlights it's advantages.  Does anyone really think the Viper is more powerful and want to name a section of the game that is faster with the Viper?  If not, then it seems that the Viper may well be a safer and more versatile choice, but not faster or more powerful.

If I had to make a call on the section, I'd say NG+ for Mordin's recruitment "Fan reactivation" finale.  Lots of long distance combat at a point in the game where a NG+ player would not want to be doing a lot of Charging due to a lack of durability upgrades.  

There are plenty of un-Chargeable "heavies" and long halls where both long rifles come in handy.  You don't have to worry about the research upgrade differential for armor penetration because you don't have Mordin yet and the base armor damage bonus for the two is relatively similar.  

The problem with Xbox testing is that if you don't have Gibbs, you'll have some trouble taking the "squadmate" factor out of the equation.  The difference between an alive Miranda or Zaeed and their dead versions just due to dumb luck is too huge to ignore.  

Sounds good.  This area probably does have the highest density of non-chargeable long range opponents.  It's also very convenient in that it's the first mission after NG+, so easy to test with both weapons.

[ScroguBlitzen]

 Uploaded two videos of the final Fan Activation part of Mordins recruitment mission no NG+ with no upgrades of any kind.

First version is using the Mattock and Scimitar.
Second version is using the Viper and Scimitar.
The Mattock run is about 3:40.
The Viper run is about 4:13.

The main reason for the difference in speed is the Viper runs out of ammo  near the last third of the mission.
Couple of notes on the videos:  In both videos, the final row of rocket launchers on the raised platform do not spawn at all.  I've run the mission repeatedly and they never spawn at this speed.  You may be thinking that the Viper would have an advantage at this point, but the fact is it's basically out of ammo at that phase anyways and wouldn't be able to pick more up from the unchargeable enemies up top.  In the Mattock video, the room on the left spawns with 2 vorcha soldiers and 4 vorcha flamethrowers.  In the Viper video the same room only spawns 1 of each.  If the room had spawned with the same number as on the Mattock video then the Viper would be pretty much out of ammo for the critical next section where I use incendiary bursts from the viper to shred a group of vorcha.  You will also notice that both the Mattock and the Viper take out the pair of rocket launchers on the first upper platform very quickly.  They also both prevent a mob from firing back while they're unloading on him.  In the very first part you will notice that I dodge two missiles while zoomed in with the Mattock, you just can't do that while zoomed in with the Viper (although you can and should still zigzag just in case).  The difference in peripheral vision between the two makes a huge difference.

After doing this run repeatedly with both, I now feel more than ever that the Mattock is both more powerful AND more versatile when compared directly to the Viper.  Here's my take on the advantages and disadvantages of both:


Viper

+Better at a single long range target
+Better armor penetration and head shots
-Lower ammo capacity
-Much lower ammo per thermal clip (4-6)
-No peripheral vision when zoomed

Mattock

+Higher ammo capacity
+Much more ammo per thermal clip (16-32)
+Double damage from point blank range
+Faster shots means more incendiary bursts
+Good peripheral vision at all ranges and zooms
-Harder to headshot at long range

Here are the videos:

Mattock Vanguard Fan Activation NG+ No Upgrades
Viper Vanguard Fan Activation NG+ No Upgrades

TL/DR: Mattocks higher ammo per clip, peripheral vision and ability to use at range and while charging makes it more powerful than the Viper.

Modifié par ScroguBlitzen, 28 novembre 2010 - 12:31 .

[Kronner]

Yep, the sniper scope incredibly sucks in ME2. When you add the accuracy upgrade to Mattock, Viper becomes obsolete weapon that offers advantage only in a very few instances, because it is better against armor at range.



I still maintain that Charge heavy Vanguard does not need AR/SR to be very effective anyway, SMG+Pistol is good enough for the very few enemies you can't charge, but have to kill anyway. SR would add absolutely nothing to my Vanguard; Mattock would be nice, but not good enough for me to give up Claymore.

[ScroguBlitzen]

The Mattock is just plain overpowered in my opinion. It's the hands down most effective weapon for EVERY class, including Vanguard. I know that Sinosleeps videos show that the damage is comparable to the Viper, BUT the Mattock gets 16-32 shots per clip versus the Vipers 4-6. That makes an enormous difference in how much you can use it, and the sniper zoom really kills your ability to run and gun since let's face it... cover sucks. It also does double damage at short range.
Everyone keeps trying to say that it's balanced, but they're just kidding themselves so they can feel good about using it. The developers say they knew it was godly but they balanced it out by giving it limited ammo, but that's not really a limitation when you can fill it back up with 2-3 clips... therefore it is not balanced as they originally intended.  You could drop the ammo per clip down to 8-12 and it would still be a damn good weapon.

Modifié par ScroguBlitzen, 28 novembre 2010 - 12:54 .

[Kronner]

I don't know, for a non-Soldier class I'd say GPS is better than Mattock.

I have one AR Sentinel and two shotgun ones, GPS is just plain better for that class. And for Adept too. For Infiltrator as well.

I never used Mattock as a Vanguard, I do not see the appeal of charging with it when I can kill with a shotgun designed for krogans lol. Although I would take it over Viper any day and twice on Sundays.

Mattock Soldier is IMHO the only class that can compete with GPS ASentinel when it comes to ease of play and effectiveness. Mattock on a Soldier makes any other weapon look like crap. I just completed a Mattock Soldier playthrough, took Widow on DCS, but rarely used it. Mattock + GPS under AR make the Widow absolutely obsolete weapon.

Modifié par Kronner, 28 novembre 2010 - 01:01 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

True, GPS may be better on some. I haven't used it much, because the little I used it also seemed grotesquely overpowered (and un-shotgunlike).



I don't really like the Mattock on a Vanguard either. The Shotgun just feels better and more balanced. You HAVE to get pretty close to make it effective. I just wanted to demonstrate how effective the Mattock is.

[Kronner]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

True, GPS may be better on some. I haven't used it much, because the little I used it also seemed grotesquely overpowered (and un-shotgunlike).

I don't really like the Mattock on a Vanguard either. The Shotgun just feels better and more balanced. You HAVE to get pretty close to make it effective. I just wanted to demonstrate how effective the Mattock is.

Agreed

[Simbacca]

I've been playing a Vanguard with the Mattock currently and love it, a bit more than my previous Vanguard with the Viper. Both Vanguards are highly effective for me, so I would never say one or the other is "better".

Currently what I do is set up with Inferno Ammo and the other with Squad Cryo each mission.  Which weapon gets which ammo power changes with different missions. For example, during Samara's recruitment I had the Scimitar with Inferno and the Mattock with Cryo. For the LotSB missions, I had the Eviscerator with Cryo and the Mattock with Inferno. For Mordin's loyalty, I had the Eviscerator with Inferno and the Mattock with Cryo.  I enjoy using the two weapons almost evenly throughout the missions (shotgun still pulls a little ahead always).  I also like that by having the Mattock I don't need the Locust at all, allowing me to keep my favorite SMG in the Tempest for the rare few massive hit-box enemies with shields/barriers.

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

Mattock Vanguard Fan Activation NG+ No Upgrades
Viper Vanguard Fan Activation NG+ No Upgrades

Nice vids, a couple things.  The Viper run might have been a bit faster if you utilized it's sniping ability to one-shot the tanks on the Pyros' backs.  Also during both these runs, why would you use the Scimitar at mid-range against most Krogan you saw?  It did pitiful damage since all pellets weren't hitting.  I believe it may have been more effective to use the Mattock/Viper in those situations.  Either would of tore through the Krogans' armors much faster, kept you at a safer range from their shotgun blasts, and heck if you had Cryo ammo on that alternate weapon it would of finished them off much quicker.  Similar though not as frequently, using the clips of the Mattock/Viper on a Vorcha that could of been immediately disposed of with a Charge plus Inferno shotgun blasts.  Different playstyles I guess; if I did this run I would of been using an Inferno-powered Evi (strong shots plus higher armor multiplier shotgun for armored enemy one-shotting) to one-shot Vorcha with a Cryo-powered Mattock/Viper for quick Krogan immobilization, Charge to shatter.

Modifié par Simbacca, 28 novembre 2010 - 06:32 .

[Simbacca]

{delete this double post please, meant to edit in last post}

Modifié par Simbacca, 28 novembre 2010 - 06:11 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

Simbacca wrote...

Nice vids, a couple things.  The Viper run might have been a bit faster if you utilized it's sniping ability to one-shot the tanks on the Pyros' backs.

In the first Viper run, near the end when I'm running low on ammo you can see my try to shoot the tanks on both of the Flamethrowers.  I fail on both though.  In a real game I'd just use Miranda's overload but I was avoiding using squad powers, although she does use her own overload once which was nice.

Simbacca wrote...

 Also during both these runs, why would you use the Scimitar at mid-range against most Krogan you saw?
 It did pitiful damage since all pellets weren't hitting.  I believe it may have been more effective to use the Mattock/Viper in those situations.  Either would of tore through the Krogans' armors much faster, kept you at a safer range from their shotgun blasts, and heck if you had Cryo ammo on that alternate weapon it would of finished them off much quicker.

Agreed with most of that.  I only used Scimitar because Mattock and especially the Viper was low on ammo by this point.  My initial blasts against a Krogan at range are instinctive to me.  Yes, the damage is weak, but I blast them while walking in closer, once my shields are broken THEN I charge in and take them at point blank.  This is very good strategy in general with any high ROF weapon, but is probably not appropriate in a speed run.  Cryo on the Scimitar or even Eviscerator would probably also be more appropriate for this run.  Hell, you know I love Cryo

Simbacca wrote...

 Similar though not as frequently, using the clips of the Mattock/Viper on a Vorcha that could of been immediately disposed of with a Charge plus Inferno shotgun blasts.  Different playstyles I guess; if I did this run I would of been using an Inferno-powered Evi (strong shots plus higher armor multiplier shotgun for armored enemy one-shotting) to one-shot Vorcha with a Cryo-powered Mattock/Viper for quick Krogan immobilization and destruction.

Since the purpose of these runs was to demonstrate the Viper vs the Mattock I artificially used both of them more than I might have naturally.  I will also point out that the Mattock finishes off vorcha after a charge faster than the Scimitar.  I didn't test the Eviscerator but I'm not sure it will one shot them with zero upgrades on NG+.

Would like to see someone post a run of this with the Eviscerator, and even the Claymore (although it will definitely be at a disadvantage here).

@simbacca-  Watch the videos again, and pay close attention to the Mattock and Vipers reserve ammo count after each section.  The difference in ammo and efforts to conserve it probably has the largest effect on times for these runs.

Modifié par ScroguBlitzen, 28 novembre 2010 - 06:41 .

[sinosleep]

The problem with your comparison is your using it in situations where I already agreed the mattock would have the advantage, primarily with charge and as your primary weapon. It'd be like If I made a vid killing nothing but harbingers, scions, and a gunship, (the kind of targets I use the sniper rifle for) and shotguns for everything else, of course the viper would win out.

Modifié par sinosleep, 28 novembre 2010 - 09:58 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

I feel that you're missing the point a bit. The Viper is actually pretty good as a primary weapon when doing pre-charge shooting. You will notice that I clear the first 4 mobs 5 seconds faster in the Viper video then in the Mattock video (mostly due to the luck of their arrangement). The reason the Viper fails is that it's ammo per clip is horribly low and it's zoom makes it worthless at short range.

The question is "Viper or Mattock for Vanguard" and the OP makes clear he's talking about "effectiveness". Since we don't know everyone's preferred playstyle then in order to try to answer this question in general we will have to assume an "optimal playstyle".

I maintain the position that with an "optimal playstyle" the Mattock is the more effective weapon for every mission in the game.

If you want to still say that you prefer the Viper for occasional usage on Scions, Harbingers and Gunships then you can, but it doesn't seem to answer the threads question.

Also, your analogy is bad because I did not splice together footage of where Mattock is most effective, I played a continuous section of the game.  If you have a comparable section of the game where you feel the Viper has the edge then let's hear it.

Modifié par ScroguBlitzen, 28 novembre 2010 - 10:46 .

[sinosleep]

You don't need to splice sections because the very fact that you are using the two weapons as your primaries is entirely the reason why the mattock came out on top. I said as much before you ever posted a video. If you're going to be taking the bonus weapon to replace shotguns as your primary than it's common sense the assault rifle with higher ammo is going to come out on top when you're comparing it to a weapon class that's clearly NEVER meant to be your primary weapon due to ammo restrictions. Even on the "sniper class" the infiltrator you aren't going to make it through the whole game relying entirely on the sniper rifles, so it was a bad comparison from the jump.



One weapon is designed as a primary while the other isn't. No section in the game is going to change that. The ONLY thing that will change that is whether you choose to make it your primary or not. If you don't make it your primary then the viper's drawbacks don't factor into the equation making it the superior choice since neither ammo nor melee range bonus would factor in.



The weapons effective relies ENTIRELY on your playstyle.

[ScroguBlitzen]

I think we're miscommunicating.  I'll try to explain again why I consider the Shotgun+Mattock a superior weapon combination to the Shotgun+Viper for a Vanguard.

If I was to rate weapons based upon range, from Short to Medium to Long then I would give these grades:

Most Shotguns: Short: A, Medium: C, Long: F

Viper: Short: D, Medium: C, Long: A

Mattock: Short: A, Medium: A, Long: B

If you combine a shotgun with the Viper then you get: Short: A, Medium: C, Long: A.
If you combine a shotgun with the Mattock then you get: Short: A, Medium: A, Long: B.

Since there is almost no long ranges in the entire game, and there are certainly no long ranges that can't be easily closed to medium range, I consider short and medium to be more important ranges to a Vanguard.  Especially since the Vanguards charge ability always brings you to short range.  Some enemies are safest to kill from medium range (by charging then backing up a bit).  These include: Harbinger, Krogans and any elites armed with Shotguns.  Scions are also best engaged right at the edge of their blast bubble range.

When using the Mattock you are fully effective at ALL ranges and you don't need to swap weapons to seamlessly move from one range to another.  You CAN choose to swap to your shotgun for some close in action, but it's optional.

The Mattock is the most effective weapon for a Vanguard when used to it's potential.  The only possible way you can argue that the Viper is superior is to demonstrate that it's much better at engaging enemies at long range.  The problem is that it IS NOT much better at long range.  It's a little bit better at long range.  But once you get the accuracy upgrade then even that small amount better is questionable.  The slight amount better that it is at long-range doesn't make up for it's inferiority at medium range (where it has no zoom peripheral vision), and it's complete lack of utility at short range.  Yes, you can swap back to your shotgun before charging but that takes about 1.5 seconds.  A critical amount of time in many situations.
 
To sum it up:  The very minor superiority of the Viper at long range does not make up for all it's shortcomings and still leaves vanguards with a weak middle range solution.

[Graunt]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...
I think we're miscommunicating.

I think you're just not listening.

The weapons effective relies ENTIRELY on your playstyle.