163 réponses à ce sujet

[sinosleep]

@ScroguBlitzen

Not a lick of what you said applies to me because that's NOT how I choose to use my weapons. I don't care about mid range because with my playstyle it doesn't matter. Most everything gets killed with a shotgun, whatever doesn't get's killed with a sniper rifle, is usually on it's own, and tends to be ARMORED. I happen to know for a fact the viper CRUSHED the mattock not even taking headshots into account when shooting at those kinds of targets. So for my purposes, or as I said earlier, my playstyle the viper is the clear choice. There is nothing on this planet you can show me outside of recreating my comparison vid and mattock taking down the armor quicker that's going to change my mind.

It's why I said weapon effectiveness is playstyle dependant. It's the same reason a person fighting mostly a midrange is going to get a lot more out of the GPS than they are out of the claymore. My playstyle makes it so that I don't have to deal with any of the viper's weaknesses while exploiting it's strengths. Your playstyle makes it so that you can exploit the mattock's strengths. The entire argument is playstyle dependant other than the hard facts that

a.) at anything other than point blank range the viper takes down armored targets quicker
b.) the mattock being an assault rifle is more versitle, as it should be

Modifié par sinosleep, 29 novembre 2010 - 03:07 .

[Simbacca]

sinosleep wrote...

...The entire argument is playstyle dependant other than the hard facts that

a.) at anything other than point blank range the viper takes down armored targets quicker
b.) the mattock being an assault rifle is more versitle, as it should be

Agreed.  I think a perfect example of this was my previous post in this thread where I explained, after having played all three bonus weapon variety Vanguards, why I enjoyed the shotgun + Mattock most.  My reasons where entirely based around the versatility of the playstyle it allowed for.  Had I explained how I played my earlier shotgun + Viper Vanguard, it would have been the same as sinosleep has said; utilizing the shotgun most of the time while only occasionly using the Viper to quickly decimate heavily armored targets at range.  The sentiment from the beginning of my last post still rings true; these Vanguard styles are both highly effective, neither one is strictly "better" as they are both different.

Modifié par Simbacca, 29 novembre 2010 - 03:56 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

 @Sinosleep

I have no argument that the Viper is the better choice for those who want to constrain themselves to a particular playstyle that is comfortable or most fun to them.

The purpose of this thread though is to attempt to answer the general question of which weapon is most effective.

We can say that:

If your playstyle leads you to prefer shotguns at short range and sniping at long range then the Viper will be the most effective for you.

If you enjoy charging and staying in short to medium range with your opponents then the Mattock will be the most effective for you.

But how do we answer the general question of which is most effective when the player IS willing to adapt their playstyle?

I have provided at least a mechanism where we can try to answer this question objectively.  It seems to me if a well played Mattock + Shotgun can clear EVERY level in the game faster than a well played Viper + Shotgun then clearly the Mattock + Shotgun is the more powerful choice provided the user is willing to adapt their playstyle.  Now in my videos I may well not be using the optimal Viper playstyle.  If that's the case please post a video showing me how it's done.

Modifié par ScroguBlitzen, 29 novembre 2010 - 10:41 .

[Graunt]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

But how do we answer the general question of which is most effective when the player IS willing to adapt their playstyle?

I have provided at least a mechanism where we can try to answer this question objectively.  It seems to me if a well played Mattock + Shotgun can clear EVERY level in the game faster than a well played Viper + Shotgun then clearly the Mattock + Shotgun is the more powerful choice provided the user is willing to adapt their playstyle.  Now in my videos I may well not be using the optimal Viper playstyle.  If that's the case please post a video showing me how it's done.

Just watched your videos again and it's quite clear you didn't even attempt to properly use either the shotgun or Viper.  Why would you be firing the shotgun at the range you were when maybe 30% of the pellets would not even hit, when all you had to do was charge, shoot, melee, shoot?  You also proceeded to use the Viper on targets that didn't even warrant it over charging (even if it's good against armor, a shotgun blast to the face with Inferno is even better).  Also, when using the Viper against the door spawns, you should simply be going for a single headshot/tankshot to setup Warp explosions. 

You also ran out of ammo more than once using the Mattock and had to switch weapons anyway.  If you were to only use it for "sniping" situations or those times where charging is bad, maybe it would pull ahead, but your videos did not really demonstrate "optimal" weapon use at all.  Playing on the console might also be a factor for someone due to the crappy aiming that happens, especially when using the scope.

This thread is about which weapon is "better" and the answer is still neither.  One is more suited for an aggressive playstyle, where the player has a better grasp on the Vanguard class (knowing when and where to charge) and the other is for someone who wants more breathing room to make mistakes.

Modifié par Graunt, 30 novembre 2010 - 05:58 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

@Graunt- Post some videos and show me how it's done. (btw, I was specifically NOT using any squad powers as per test plan.)

[sinosleep]

He tested it that way in order to avoid muddying up the direct comparison by having a bunch of outside factors contributing to the completion time. The problem is that by doing that he was already inherently favoring the assault rifle.



Assault rifles are the clear "jack of all trades" weapon in the game. They get flat damage modifiers to all protection types and generally have large ammo pools. The only one that doesn't have a large ammo pool still has a large shots/thermal clip ratio since it can be topped off in around 3 thermal clips, something NONE of the sniper rifles in the game can do. Sniper rifles also have a clear niche against armor. They are a specialist weapon, much like pistols, smgs, and most shotguns.



If the question is which weapon could be used against anything and everything than clearly the answer is the assault rifle, just as it would win out against every other weapon type in that department.



If the question being asked though is which is better to take on the vanguard well then you can answer differently. And that answer is largely dependent on playstyle.



Since I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't ever really find yourself in a situation where you are caught with your pants down and have your bonus weapon out when you should have your shotgun out then I don't put much stock in the mattock's versatility. And since I'll still be shotgunning 90% of everything I see, and the targets that I won't be shotgunning will by and large by high armor targets (gunships, YMIR mechs, Harbinger, Scions, occasionally Krogan although I usually shotgun them as well once I have inferno ammo maxed out) that I tend to save for last then I don't much care about my peripheral vision being hampered by the scope.



Essentially I look at the bonus weapon the same way Kronner does. There's never really a point at which you would NEED either the AR OR the sniper rifle. The vanguard can get by fine and dandy with a claymore and carnifex/locust. Because of that vanguards can cherry pick when it is they want to use their bonus weapon and as such avoid their weaknesses while exploiting their strengths.



That's why the sniper rifle's weaknesses don't bother me and why the assault rifles strengths don't impress me. I don't run into either because I don't put myself into situations where either would crop up. I tend to use sniper rifles only in the spots where I have clear evidence the sniper rifle wins out.

[ScroguBlitzen]

@sinosleep-

You've made clear repeatedly that the best bonus weapon for YOU is the Viper. 

Do you have any reply though to the generic question of which bonus weapon is the most powerful addition to a Vanguard that is willing to adapt his playstyle?

Note: I AM NOT asking which can be used against most things.  I am making ZERO assumptions about how one uses their weapon loadouts or what percentage they use each of them.

Modifié par ScroguBlitzen, 30 novembre 2010 - 07:17 .

[sinosleep]

Clearly I think the majority of people would go through the game the same way I do. So my answer remains the same. Charge most everything everything, snipe high armor targets, and viper is superior. For different playstyles the mattock may well be better.

[edit here] While you may not be asking which weapon is useful against the most enemies it's all your test proves as it's currently being performed.

Modifié par sinosleep, 30 novembre 2010 - 07:25 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

sinosleep wrote...

Clearly I think the majority of people would go through the game the same way I do. So my answer remains the same. Charge most everything everything, snipe high armor targets, and viper is superior. For different playstyles the mattock may well be better.

[edit here] While you may not be asking which weapon is useful against the most enemies it's all your test proves as it's currently being performed.

The majority may well play as you and the Viper may well be the best choice for them, but that would still not answer the question.

Let's look at the question a different way:  What is the OPTIMAL playstyle+weapons?  This question has NOTHING to do with my playstyle or yours, or the majorities or anyone elses.  It only asks what the optimal playstyle might be.  I don't claim to know or be able to replicate the optimal playstyle.  I just suspect that the optimal playstyle+weapon loadout includes the Mattock.

My test is not intended to be the only one, it would be great to get other peoples attempts with different styles.  My test only shows that I am capable of completing that mission faster with the Mattock then I can with the Viper.  I don't use the Mattock because I'm trying to demonstrate it's versatility, I use the Mattock because it is faster to kill and move on than the Scimitar for me.

Please run the test with both weapons and let's see what times you get.  Not to compare to mine, but to compare to yourself with each weapon.   Please tell me you've at least run the test with both weapons a couple of times.

[sinosleep]

So you're basically asking if it would make a better primary weapon than X shotgun? As far as that goes I don't know and I don't particularly care. I play vanguards primarily to shotgun things in the face. If a mattock primary locust secondary combo clears content quicker it wouldn't mean anything to me cause it's not a playstyle I'm interested in adopting.

The same way I actually have tested and know for a fact that a mattock/widow soldier clears content quicker than any other weapon combination on a soldier for me it's boring as hell and no fun so I just play with the rev.

I've been coming at this thread (and any other bonus weapon thread) from a vanguards use shotguns as primaries and as such any bonus weapon will play a secondary role point of view. If you want to get into whether ARs would make good primaries for vanguards you can go ahead and do that but I doubt I'll be making any video comparisons between AR primary vanguards and Shotgun primary vanguards.

The only video comparison I would make is using my playstyle with the viper and using my playstyle with the mattock but I already know the viper would win in that case based on my comparison vid and my choice of targets. I pretty much only snipe things I already know for a fact a viper can kill quicker than a mattock on any non-soldier class.

[edit here] You know what I've tested plenty of stuff I don't have any real interest in I might just test this out as well.

Modifié par sinosleep, 30 novembre 2010 - 07:59 .

[Graunt]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

Let's look at the question a different way:  What is the OPTIMAL playstyle+weapons?  This question has NOTHING to do with my playstyle or yours, or the majorities or anyone elses.  It only asks what the optimal playstyle might be.  I don't claim to know or be able to replicate the optimal playstyle.  I just suspect that the optimal playstyle+weapon loadout includes the Mattock.

Except that "optimal playstyle" very much has to do with personal preferences in a single player game.  If someone can reproduce the same, similar or faster killing speed with setup A over setup B because it's what they are either more accustomed to, or simply enjoy more then it doesn't matter at all if option B may or may not shave off 5 seconds per arena.  That same person might actually do worse initially while trying to perfect option B and in the end not even enjoy it.  The most optimal playstyle is the one you are having the least frustration/most fun with is it not?  I know that's not the answer you want, but there it is.

It doesn't matter which weapon you pick, both are good and both are very dependant on how you play.  Neither is going to make you go from zero to hero either.

Modifié par Graunt, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:05 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

I don't really think of the Mattock as the primary weapon.  I think of it more as an equal partner with the Shotgun, although there is nothing inherently wrong with a Vanguard using an assault rifle predominantly... just ask Tela Vasir.

I AM basically asking the question is a Vanguard more effective using an assault rifle in general and the Mattock specifically. My experience has been that the answer is yes in most situations.

Personally I prefer Shotguns. There is nothing like a shotgun blast to the face... but I still want to ask the general question of what is actually more effective.

Modifié par ScroguBlitzen, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:06 .

[Graunt]

On enemies with shields or barriers I would think shotguns pull ahead, especially if you're using Warp combos. You might be able to melee in the breaks of the Mattock too, but it seems like it would actually be a damage loss doing that compared to reloading a shotgun, and it's not always about just damage. Staggers matter a lot too, plus you do 125 damage per hit before any upgrades or gear.

Modifié par Graunt, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:17 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

@Graunt- You would think that Shotgun is better vs shields and barriers, but after having done around a hundred suicide mission speed runs with both weapons I can tell you that I'm faster overall vs Collectors using the Mattock. YES, the shotguns are awesome when you're right in their faces, but the Mattock overtakes it during all the time when your a little bit farther away. Also, the Mattock absolutely destroys Harbinger from Full barrier to Dead in seconds.

That said, the ability to swap between both is awesome, and if you swap a decent amount then ammo is NEVER a limitation. This let's you be a little more liberal with your shots. Yes shotguns don't do much damage from range, but even one pellet CAN stagger a fully shielded enemy, and if ammo is no problem and you're not charging them yet anyways then you might as well lay down some suppressing fire.

[Graunt]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

Also, the Mattock absolutely destroys Harbinger from Full barrier to Dead in seconds.

So does a shotgun, as does a head-aimed Viper.  It seems like you're really just wanting us to agree with you that the Mattock is superior all of the time just because you find it easier to beat enemies with.  If I had to play on the console, I might agree, but I don't have as bad of aiming issues with a scope, and Harbingers die extremely fast with the Viper when manually aiming.

[ScroguBlitzen]

@Graunt- Don't really care if you agree or not. Would just like to see you try them both out yourself and post some videos.

[ashwind]

Personally I prefer Shotguns. There is nothing like a shotgun blast to the face... but I still want to ask the general question of what is actually more effective.

Comparing the Mattock to the Viper, I agree that the Mattock is more "effective" simply because it works on everything most of the time. It is after all a DLC weapon that is designed to be deadly to anyone and any class can use the Mattock to about the same degree of effectiveness.



As for effectiveness, taking squad power into consideration, shotguns to me are far more effective to the Vanguard than the Mattock or any other weapons for that matter. The moment I click the mouse, I know that the enemy is either dead (Claymore) or it is ready for squad power (Eviserator) - just a click; not n-taps like the Mattock. No guessing involve, simply works all the time and always yield the same results.



So, if a player likes to play a charging Vanguard and uses the shotgun as their primary weapon and uses them 90+% of the time, well, a Viper is excellent because it gets you through those specific situation - like the 2 rocket turrets on the towers in Thane's recruitment mission.

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

IMHO - the Viper lets you "go places" that you can't with the Mattock. Places you can't Charge to. The scope makes the difference.

[Cypher0020]

hmmmm from trying out the Viper on my vanguard now.... I'd definitely say take it.... the scope helps wonders for those hard to reach enemies



I plan to take the viper for my adept too...

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

The big reason to take sniper rifles, for me, is that it lets me target enemies that my squadmates - even if they have sniper rifles too - can't. Plus if you can get them in the scope, you can use powers on them.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^+1



Sniper rifles add tactical versatility that Assault Rifles don't. This is especially true now that we have an SMG that basically replaces every Assault Rifle other than the Mattock.

[Ahglock]

The only reason I never take sniper rifles anymore even though I think they are cool is I hate using powers through them. The weird scope change of perspective thing looks bad. I'll stick with the claymore on my vanguard. I think it should be better than the gps since you are using your upgrade slot on getting it, but at least it is fun.

[Omega-202]

Ahglock wrote...

The only reason I never take sniper rifles anymore even though I think they are cool is I hate using powers through them. The weird scope change of perspective thing looks bad. I'll stick with the claymore on my vanguard. I think it should be better than the gps since you are using your upgrade slot on getting it, but at least it is fun.

Aww, come on, Charging through a scope is one of the goofiest/cool looking things in the game.

"How the heck am I looking through the scope at myself?  Am I really going that fast?"  

Honestly, you'd think they'd figure out a way to get rid of the scope UI overlay for power usage.  

[TexasToast712]

---Powers

Heavy Charge
Heavy Shockwave
Heavy Pull
Destroyer
Heavy Warp Ammo

---Weapons
Geth Plasma Shotgun
Mattock Heavy Rifle
Phalanx Pistol
Locust

As you can see any enemy that comes across me is a JOKE and ends up dieing under a hail of gunfire.
Even on Insanity

Answer your question?

Modifié par TexasToast712, 13 décembre 2010 - 02:48 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

TexasToast712 wrote...

---Powers

Heavy Charge
Heavy Shockwave
Heavy Pull
Destroyer
Heavy Warp Ammo

---Weapons
Geth Plasma Shotgun
Mattock Heavy Rifle
Phalanx Pistol
Locust

As you can see any enemy that comes across me is a JOKE and ends up dieing under a hail of gunfire.
Even on Insanity

Answer your question?

Why are you posting your awesome build in this thread exactly?