4 réponses à ce sujet

[Big I]

Something I've always thought would be interesting would be exploring the effect the Urn, the Gauntlet, and the Guardian would have on the theology of the Chantry. There are several areas where the Chant of Light is contradicted by the Guardian and the Gauntlet, and it always seemed likely to me that the Chantry would be tempted to restrict access to the temple, or at least to the Guardian and the Guantlet for several reasons:

1) The Dissonant Verses
Over the evolution of the Chantry, the Canticles of Maferath, Shartan, and presumably Archon Hessarian were stricken from the official chant, meaning that they and the messages of these Verses are religiously irrelevant (Andrastians should not use them to inform their own belief in Andraste and the Maker). However, the riddle section of the Gauntlet, and the status of these spirits as protectors of the Urn, completely discredits this.

Andraste accepted the service of the elves even if they didn't believe and promised them a homeland, calling into question the destrucion of the Dales; Hessarian's conversion was sincere and accepted, meaning that perhaps the Tevinter Chantry's interpretations of the place of magic in society, and those of the Black Divine, are the more theologically sound ones. These are radical ideas that directly attack centuries held Chantry belief. At the very least, they demand the re-inclusion of the Dissonant Verses in the Chant.

2) The Village of Haven
The Chantry was created in -3 Ancient, 67 years after the death of Andraste, and represented the first codification of the Chant of Light, which until then had been told in different ways by different "Maker cults". So there was large gap between her death and the formalised worship of the Chant, with the offical chant being compiled by people who were several generations removed from Andraste's actual disciples. Keep in mind that at this time most Andrastians were from barbarian tribes like the Alamarri, and thus lacked much of an academic appreciation for history and scholarship.

The inhabitants of Haven, however, represent an unbroken, recorded line of worship from Andraste herself, with direct access to her only living disciple, the Guardian. Until their adoption of the heresy of the dragon cult, their traditions and beliefs would have been closer in form and content to that of the original Andrastians. Where the practices of the Chantry and the practices of the pre-heretic Haven came into conflict (e.g. possibly having male preists), the Haven ones would posses greater legitimacy.

3) The Guardian
The last living disciple of Andraste; a person who actually knew her and has devoted a thousand years to protecting her ashes. Literally everything in the Chant of Light would have to be re-evaluated based on information he could be induced to give about her life and times. They would probably have to add new verses to the Chant based upon what he had to tell them. Over and beyond any problems that may arise if he points out the Chant got it wrong in some places, his existence undermines the authority of the Divine. How can she claim to speak for Andraste if Andraste still speaks through her Guardian?

Also, there are variations in the Chant of Light between languages. The Guardian, who both heard the original teachings that would become the Chant (presumably in Tevinter), and seems to have kncak for languages (he can speak modern Fereldan, whatever language that is, despite having almost zero contact with the outside world for 10 centuries), so would be able to more accurately render the Chant into other languages.

4) Andraste's Mother
A spirit in the Gauntlet, her mother says she had a vision of Andraste's life and death before she was born. This is important because a) it highlights an unknown facet of Andraste's life, it leads credence to the idea that Andraste was a mage and got her magic from her mother (visions don't go to nobodies), and c) it raises the possibility that Andraste's life was predetermined, presumably by the Maker, and brings into question the idea that the Maker has abandoned the world. If he had, why send them a prophet to bring them back to his side?


Once the Chantry realises all this, they would be incentivised to bury, if not the Urn, everything else from that temple, and the conflicts that would arise from that would make an interesting story.

[Bahlgan]

2) The Village of Haven

The Chantry was created in -3 Ancient, 67 years after the death of Andraste, and represented the first codification of the Chant of Light, which until then had been told in different ways by different "Maker cults". So there was large gap between her death and the formalised worship of the Chant, with the offical chant being compiled by people who were several generations removed from Andraste's actual disciples. Keep in mind that at this time most Andrastians were from barbarian tribes like the Alamarri, and thus lacked much of an academic appreciation for history and scholarship.



The inhabitants of Haven, however, represent an unbroken, recorded line of worship from Andraste herself, with direct access to her only living disciple, the Guardian. Until their adoption of the heresy of the dragon cult, their traditions and beliefs would have been closer in form and content to that of the original Andrastians. Where the practices of the Chantry and the practices of the pre-heretic Haven came into conflict (e.g. possibly having male preists), the Haven ones would posses greater legitimacy.

I agree. While I do respect going to church in real life, or in the game perhaps going to a chantry every now and then, the members of the Andrastian Chantry are indeed very pompous and too seem to have dragged a long way from the original beliefs.



I prefer Leliana's belief in the Maker, that he stays in the hearts of all those who follow him; even those who don't. I bet that her belief is not too far from the original beliefs of the Avvars before that damned ancestor of Kolgrim perverted it all with the worship of dragons and wyrmlings.

[LobselVith8]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

1) The Dissonant Verses
Over the evolution of the Chantry, the Canticles of Maferath, Shartan, and presumably Archon Hessarian were stricken from the official chant, meaning that they and the messages of these Verses are religiously irrelevant (Andrastians should not use them to inform their own belief in Andraste and the Maker). However, the riddle section of the Gauntlet, and the status of these spirits as protectors of the Urn, completely discredits this.

Andraste accepted the service of the elves even if they didn't believe and promised them a homeland, calling into question the destrucion of the Dales; Hessarian's conversion was sincere and accepted, meaning that perhaps the Tevinter Chantry's interpretations of the place of magic in society, and those of the Black Divine, are the more theologically sound ones. These are radical ideas that directly attack centuries held Chantry belief. At the very least, they demand the re-inclusion of the Dissonant Verses in the Chant.

I doubt the Chantry would ever include the Dissonant Verses back in the Chant. They want everyone to believe exactly as they do (just like in The Chant in the Deeps with Brother Burkle). Considering how certain magic, like Morrigan's shapeshifting, isn't even known to a mage Warden, I'd wager that the Chantry eliminates anything they don't care for without hesitation, from the templars killing mages to wiping out important information and even groups of people.

LookingGlass93 wrote...


2) The Village of Haven
The Chantry was created in -3 Ancient, 67 years after the death of Andraste, and represented the first codification of the Chant of Light, which until then had been told in different ways by different "Maker cults". So there was large gap between her death and the formalised worship of the Chant, with the offical chant being compiled by people who were several generations removed from Andraste's actual disciples. Keep in mind that at this time most Andrastians were from barbarian tribes like the Alamarri, and thus lacked much of an academic appreciation for history and scholarship.

The inhabitants of Haven, however, represent an unbroken, recorded line of worship from Andraste herself, with direct access to her only living disciple, the Guardian. Until their adoption of the heresy of the dragon cult, their traditions and beliefs would have been closer in form and content to that of the original Andrastians. Where the practices of the Chantry and the practices of the pre-heretic Haven came into conflict (e.g. possibly having male preists), the Haven ones would posses greater legitimacy.

Given the Chantry's harsh views on magic (despite mages helping them keep their territory from the Qunari) and Kolgrim's acceptance of blood magic, as well as not trusting the Guardian, I think its evolution into a dragon cult has changed it dramatically from its inception. Kolgrim's ancestor likely wouldn't keep any records that would in any way contradict what he was going to do with his people. One could argue that the lack of templars and a Circle for Kolgrim's mages illustrates that the Chantry isn't necessary to watch over mages.

LookingGlass93 wrote...

3) The Guardian
The last living disciple of Andraste; a person who actually knew her and has devoted a thousand years to protecting her ashes. Literally everything in the Chant of Light would have to be re-evaluated based on information he could be induced to give about her life and times. They would probably have to add new verses to the Chant based upon what he had to tell them. Over and beyond any problems that may arise if he points out the Chant got it wrong in some places, his existence undermines the authority of the Divine. How can she claim to speak for Andraste if Andraste still speaks through her Guardian?

Also, there are variations in the Chant of Light between languages. The Guardian, who both heard the original teachings that would become the Chant (presumably in Tevinter), and seems to have knack for languages (he can speak modern Fereldan, whatever language that is, despite having almost zero contact with the outside world for 10 centuries), so would be able to more accurately render the Chant into other languages.

I don't think the Chantry would allow anything to be changed for precisely what you've said - if anything he says contradicts the Divine. People in a position of religious authority aren't going to let that power come into question, which is likely why it takes so long for them to come out and announce the discovery of the Urn.

LookingGlass93 wrote...

4) Andraste's Mother
A spirit in the Gauntlet, her mother says she had a vision of Andraste's life and death before she was born. This is important because a) it highlights an unknown facet of Andraste's life, it leads credence to the idea that Andraste was a mage and got her magic from her mother (visions don't go to nobodies), and c) it raises the possibility that Andraste's life was predetermined, presumably by the Maker, and brings into question the idea that the Maker has abandoned the world. If he had, why send them a prophet to bring them back to his side?

Once the Chantry realises all this, they would be incentivised to bury, if not the Urn, everything else from that temple, and the conflicts that would arise from that would make an interesting story.

If Oghren's correct about the walls of lyrium having an impact on the temple ruins, it's likely this is all based on what the Guardian knew about Andraste. The members of the Chantry might even kill the Guardian to secure the location of the Urn, wiping out the remaining inhabitants of Haven in order to control the traffic of people and the newfound power that such a discovery would grant them among the faithful. (More reason for anyone who hates the Chantry to pour some dragon blood into the Urn and let the pro-mage Disciples of Andraste flourish).

[Homebound]

Talk to the Guardian thoroughly. He tells you a lot more than he lets on. Pick his words apart carefully.

For example, try mentioning to him that the Tevinter Empire isn't as strong as it was before. He mentions how the end might be near. To me, with everything else he's sai, that means that the day he no longer needs to guard Andraste's ashes, is the day that the Chantry becomes a forgotten religion. And that the day of that happening is coming near.



As for the Chantry itself, finding the ashes of your messiah could be...Problematic. It serves as proof that this or that happened and it takes away from the "faith" element of the religion. It might even lead to a religious war where the Chantry believes that they are the rightful religion and that all others are nothing more than blasphemous cults. Or something like that.

[MKDAWUSS]

Just_mike wrote...
As for the Chantry itself, finding the ashes of your messiah could be...Problematic. It serves as proof that this or that happened and it takes away from the "faith" element of the religion. It might even lead to a religious war where the Chantry believes that they are the rightful religion and that all others are nothing more than blasphemous cults. Or something like that.

They're called the Exalted Marches. They didn't need a receptacle with a burned corpse to go on Holy Wars against those of a different religion.