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[caridounette]

ejoslin wrote...

But Zevran would have had to have lied as well, about no crows being willing to take the contract. Ignacio, an old time crow, scoffed at the very idea of taking a Gray Warden contract.

It's possible to come up with ideas of why the Crows would still be attacking, but it, to me, cheapened both what Zevran said about the contract and what Ignacio said (and yes, while he COULD be a liar and the invitation to join the crows only a farce and a setup, it really didn't come across that way in Origins).

Well most of my Wardens kill Master Ignacio after the deeds are done because he saw Zevran alive after the Talisen encounter... but thats beside the point.

I dont think the team who designed that quest really paid attention to Crow lore. Thats why I prefer to think about it like a punishment for the Crow they sent. That way they get money from far away nobles who cant come and argue about the job not being done ( plus they die in the battle, thats well planned !) and they get rid of that Crow who probably angered someone. Its not like they sent an army and infiltrated the Keep so they knew too well it was a pointless to attack the Warden Commander. But if those wealthy nobles cant do the difference, why not take their money for it   Anyway thats my version.

[LupusYondergirl]

ejoslin wrote...

But Zevran would have had to have lied as well, about no crows being willing to take the contract. Ignacio, an old time crow, scoffed at the very idea of taking a Gray Warden contract.

It's possible to come up with ideas of why the Crows would still be attacking, but it, to me, cheapened both what Zevran said about the contract and what Ignacio said (and yes, while he COULD be a liar and the invitation to join the crows only a farce and a setup, it really didn't come across that way in Origins).

In my fic I had Zevran explain it by saying the contract had been taken out on the Arlessa of Amaranthine and the Crows, not being up on day to day Ferelden politics, didn't realize that person was also the Warden Commander.  And that, when they found out, they were so mad at the lie that Bann Esmerelle's death only looked like a suicide.

Not the best explination, since I would imagine they would do a minimum of research before taking a job and realize who the ruler of the arling was, but it was the best I could come up with.

[wildannie]

 With regards the crows in awakenings... I agree that it's pretty cheap. 
Other things that drove me nuts in awakenings was Oghren cautioning my GW that Nathaniel might 'go all Zevran' (or something like that) as if Zev had betrayed her... Well that was him permanently demoted from the party.  I played it twice, second time didn't let Oghren join.
... and of course the massively cheap absence of Zev in the first place... where the **** is my fiance!  .... oh and my clothes! 

...epilogues...

...they're in antiva? taking over the crows? isn't crow recruitment heavily involved in the slave trade that Zev hates?... bah!  

Bringing down the crows is not much better...(if that is what's implied by the battle).  What would happen to Zev's beloved Antiva.  isn't it  the crows that keep their neighbours at bay... I just don't see how that would work...

cheap, very cheap

DLC since then... pointless

BW have taught me a lesson in caution though, never again will I wait excitedly for the next DLC, which is a shame.  I await the Witchhunt reviews.

[Corker]

LupusYondergirl wrote...


In my fic I had Zevran explain it by saying the contract had been taken out on the Arlessa of Amaranthine and the Crows, not being up on day to day Ferelden politics, didn't realize that person was also the Warden Commander.  And that, when they found out, they were so mad at the lie that Bann Esmerelle's death only looked like a suicide.

Not the best explination, since I would imagine they would do a minimum of research before taking a job and realize who the ruler of the arling was, but it was the best I could come up with.

I like that theory, but I cling stubbornly to my theory that a local cell in Denerim is the most likely candidate to take Ferelden contracts.  Ignacio is so swamped with work in DA:O that he asks the Warden to temp for him; I have a really hard time believing every single contract has to go back to Antiva, then get routed back to Iggy.  Maybe those he won't take (like the original one on the Wardens) go home, to see if there are any takers, and that's how we get Zevran claiming to be out of Antiva for the first time (except for the last time he was in Denerim, apparently, staying in that inn where the bedbugs had fleas...   Keep your stories straight, Zev...)

My own guess would be that the combined wealth of Amaranthine's angry nobility outweighted somebody's better judgement.

[Corker]

wildannie wrote...

Other things that drove me nuts in awakenings was Oghren cautioning my GW that Nathaniel might 'go all Zevran' (or something like that) as if Zev had betrayed her...

ZOMG seconded.  My Cousland, who didn't even romance Zevran, was just "WTF Oghren?  If he goes all Zevran on me, I'll count myself lucky!"  And he did 'go all Zevran,' too, being the first Awakening companion to hit +100. 

That hairstyle is just a jinx for would-be assassins of Wardens.

[jenovan]

Corker wrote...
 (except for the last time he was in Denerim, apparently, staying in that inn where the bedbugs had fleas...   Keep your stories straight, Zev...)

I always assumed (to fit it in with everything else he says...) that he meant while he was getting the details from Howe and Loghain.   He did say he came with almost nothing, so it made sense that he was staying in some sort of run-down inn (letting him stay at the palace might have sent up red flags... or something...).

As far as the Crows in Awakenings, the assumption I go with is that they're still under the original contract to kill the Warden.  Ignacio says "until Taliesen and his men are defeated" or whatever, but he also says that the Crows don't back out of contracts... Maybe he, personally, thought killing Taliesen would suffice, but the Master holding the contract proved truly stubborn (for any number of reasons).  And/or, yes, maybe the Amaranthine nobles paid a loooot of money.

Sresla wrote...

4. You startled the Crows at Old Stark's Farm. Maybe the nobles weren't 100% forthcoming and they were there saying, "You know, we said we weren't going to bother the Grey Wardens anymore" and then boom, you show up and they're like "Fuuuuuu-" and they're pretty much damned just for being there.

L-O-L.  That could cause all sorts of bad and interesting misunderstandings...

Modifié par jenovan, 01 septembre 2010 - 06:06 .

[Hilde]

wildannie wrote...

 With regards the crows in awakenings... I agree that it's pretty cheap. 
Other things that drove me nuts in awakenings was Oghren cautioning my GW that Nathaniel might 'go all Zevran' (or something like that) as if Zev had betrayed her... Well that was him permanently demoted from the party.  I played it twice, second time didn't let Oghren join.
... and of course the massively cheap absence of Zev in the first place... where the **** is my fiance!  .... oh and my clothes! 

Yes! I wished you could have knocked him out after that! There seemed to be no regard for our choices transfering in that respect.

I will wait for witch hunt reviews too. Played the last DLC (Golems) but not most of the others except the ones you could do ingame with your companions (Ostagar, Keep and Shale).


Yeah Zevran!

@maradeux - Thanks for the hugs!

Modifié par Hilde, 01 septembre 2010 - 06:50 .

[ejoslin]

I will get witch hunt and review it. My big fear (ahahaha):

First I played DA:O. Zevran and my warden (quite a few playthroughs) rebuilt the gray wardens together, he helped with training and recruitment though never officially joined the order. *squee*

THEN comes Awakening. *sigh* Zevran is NOT helping recruit and such. I'm now doing my second playthrough of Awakening, after doing a new ending -- they adventured together for a time. I know how it ends, my warden chases him to Antiva and they take over the crows. Why not.

HOWEVER, I have a feeling in Witch Hunt, that ending will be gone as well. After all, it was only rumors. My guess, Zevran gets no happily ever after, and I really wanted him to

Oh, and if anyone is wondering, the "Zevran taking over the Crows" is the Ultimate Sacrifice ending. If he was in love, he's a shell of what he once was, murdering his way to the top of the crows and never letting anyone close to him again. Even as a friend, while you don't get the same feeling of total emptiness from him, you get a huge sense of apathy from his ending slide.

Modifié par ejoslin, 01 septembre 2010 - 07:32 .

[Minaleth]

Ejo, this pessimistic view on taking over the crows is not the only interpretation. I wouldn't see it that tragically... I know where are you coming from, but still there is hundred of possible scenarios how this could happen and many of them can be plausible with Zev's character and still have optimistic interpretation. It kinda depends on the Warden methinks and how you roleplay it, how you fill the gaps in the story. If it makes you sad, make some better story, it's all quite open ended and leaves a lot of space for imagination.

Modifié par Minaleth, 01 septembre 2010 - 07:45 .

[ejoslin]

Minaleth, I was actually more talking about how the Warden's story's ending keeps changing. Origin slide (at least one) is completely discarded. Awakening one will probably be discarded as well with Witch Hunt. I am hoping against hope our Warden gets a satisfying ending there, WITH their love interest. But I'm not too optimistic.

As far as the Ultimate Sacrifice slides go, yeh, they're pretty sad and not that open to interpretation, especially the one where he was in love. I wasn't meaning that they were the same as the Awakening ending slide, though. It's just that someone had questioned that happening a few messages earlier.

Modifié par ejoslin, 01 septembre 2010 - 07:50 .

[wildannie]

Corker wrote...

wildannie wrote...

Other things that drove me nuts in awakenings was Oghren cautioning my GW that Nathaniel might 'go all Zevran' (or something like that) as if Zev had betrayed her...

ZOMG seconded.  My Cousland, who didn't even romance Zevran, was just "WTF Oghren?  If he goes all Zevran on me, I'll count myself lucky!"  And he did 'go all Zevran,' too, being the first Awakening companion to hit +100. 

That hairstyle is just a jinx for would-be assassins of Wardens.

Absolutely, Nathanial was my favorite Awakenings character by a mile, didn't really warm to the others much, except maybe sigrun.

[wildannie]

ejoslin wrote...

Minaleth, I was actually more talking about how the Warden's story's ending keeps changing. Origin slide (at least one) is completely discarded. Awakening one will probably be discarded as well with Witch Hunt. I am hoping against hope our Warden gets a satisfying ending there, WITH their love interest. But I'm not too optimistic.

As far as the Ultimate Sacrifice slides go, yeh, they're pretty sad and not that open to interpretation, especially the one where he was in love. I wasn't meaning that they were the same as the Awakening ending slide, though. It's just that someone had questioned that happening a few messages earlier.

I'm hoping that witchhunt leaves our warden imprisoned the fade for say... 10 years... where she is ultimately rescued by Hawke, aided by Zev, Leliana, Alistair, Dog, and a dwarven shale.... 

...I don't know why I torture myself with these thoughts 

[Minaleth]

Is it known that this DLC will have some sort of ending slides or something? (Sorry I probably didn't read about it very carefully.) If so, that's quite weird idea, since they have MAJOR problems with their own consistency and there is only little hope such endings would be satisfactory for lot of players :/

Changing endings are for me only a result of lazy writing/game design shortcomings/loose ends and consistency problems. The only truly consistent stories of my Wardens are in my head.

Modifié par Minaleth, 01 septembre 2010 - 08:02 .

[wildannie]

Minaleth wrote...

Is it known that this DLC will have some sort of ending slides or something? (Sorry I probably didn't read about it very carefully.)

Changing endings are for me only a result of lazy writing/game design shortcomings/loose end problems. The only truly consistent stories of my Wardens are in my head.

I'm not sure if it's been announced but I guess that there will be, unless the outcome is so final as not to need any... 

[Hilde]

Minaleth wrote...

Changing endings are for me only a result of lazy writing/game design shortcomings/loose ends and consistency problems. The only truly consistent stories of my Wardens are in my head.

Exactly. This is why if there is a new epilogue ending I am not sure I want to see it. 

@ Minaleth,  Love the space hamster (Boo) on your shoulder!


Ack edit: spelling..spelling

Modifié par Hilde, 01 septembre 2010 - 08:17 .

[ejoslin]

I don't know if there will be slides, but I understand that it IS the ending of the Warden's story. I'm really surprised that they're wrapping it up with a DLC instead of an expansion. But it will be a bridge between DA:O and DA2 I'm pretty sure, and it will explain Morrigan (and make her role in DA2 make more sense).

Edit: And I do agree about the changing endings.  But they do keep changing. Heh, I may delete all DLC and make new ending slides!  Lore, schmore...

Modifié par ejoslin, 01 septembre 2010 - 08:41 .

[Minaleth]

Hilde wrote...

Minaleth wrote...
Changing endings are for me only a result of lazy writing/game design shortcomings/loose ends and consistency problems. The only truly consistent stories of my Wardens are in my head.

Exactly. This is why if there is a new epilogue ending I am not sure I want to see it.

Okay, I see what are your concern. Though I admit that this doesn't affect me that much. There are already many possible endings in Origins and Awakening, so I kinda don't see ingame 'canon' as something set in stone. I don't know if I can explain this. My Warden's story is more important for me than anything in game now or in the future. I stopped to expect from Bioware that they will provide me with superb consistent story of my Warden, it's not gonna happen, they don't deliver. So I like my own better *shrug*
I liked Awakening, but on different level - it was fun and that's all that matters. I don't expect any epicness story wise.

Hilde wrote...
@ Minaleth,  Love the space hamster (Boo) on your shoulder!

Haha, thanks

[Sresla]

ejoslin wrote...

I don't know if there will be slides, but I understand that it IS the ending of the Warden's story. I'm really surprised that they're wrapping it up with a DLC instead of an expansion. But it will be a bridge between DA:O and DA2 I'm pretty sure, and it will explain Morrigan (and make her role in DA2 make more sense).

Edit: And I do agree about the changing endings.  But they do keep changing. Heh, I may delete all DLC and make new ending slides!  Lore, schmore...

I guess you saw some quote I didn't, EJ - where did you read that this was the end of the Warden's story? I've read that this is the end of DA:O, which I personally don't quite interpret to mean the same thing. I also haven't read anything about Morrigan being IN DA2 - just that her story isn't over either. Conceivably, the Warden and Morrigan could be back for DA3, and DA2 is more of an experiement of where they want to go with the franchise (which is why I am fervently hoping in DA3 Zevran and I come back to basically pound Hawke into the ground and show him his true place in Thedas [dead like Cailan in Ostagar, oops did I say that aloud]).

Or that could all be bollocks and it's over forever and I will raise my fist in the air with an angry cry, but... a quote would be welcome.

Modifié par Sresla, 01 septembre 2010 - 09:44 .

[ejoslin]

I'll look for it, Srsela -- I believe David Gaider said the Warden's story was over. Hopefully I misunderstood.

Edit: I can't find it.  *le sigh*  I hope I just misread something somewhere!

Modifié par ejoslin, 01 septembre 2010 - 09:49 .

[Minaleth]

I personally consider Wardens story to be over in DA:O. The ending slides have this 'end of story' vibe.

They should either leave the Warden be for good or choose some less terminal and less problematic slides to continue.

Imho the one thing is certain we will never hear of Zevran in canon again.

[Eudaemonium]

ejoslin wrote...

Minaleth, I was actually more talking about how the Warden's story's ending keeps changing. Origin slide (at least one) is completely discarded. Awakening one will probably be discarded as well with Witch Hunt. I am hoping against hope our Warden gets a satisfying ending there, WITH their love interest. But I'm not too optimistic.

As far as the Ultimate Sacrifice slides go, yeh, they're pretty sad and not that open to interpretation, especially the one where he was in love. I wasn't meaning that they were the same as the Awakening ending slide, though. It's just that someone had questioned that happening a few messages earlier.

Assuming that there probably won't be any epilogue slides in Witch Hunt, and that the Warden doesn't tragically die, it only takes place a year after Origins ends, which is 6 months after the start of Awakening, which is probably about 3-4 months long. In which case, whose to say that the rumours of Morrigan didn't reach you *as* you were preparing to leave for Antiva, and thought it best to wrap up loose ends before departing?

You have a point with Awakening, but then, Awakening is a semi-decent continuation of *some* Wardens' stories. If you go travelling or return to Orzammar or wherever it seems unlikely that you'd be made Warden Commander, or want to be. 'Tis why I don't import some characters. In fact, I might import some of them straight to WH, see how that turns out. I can't see my Dalish Rogue Morrimancer wanting to be Warden Commander, or standing for it.

Vaguely on topic, it seems that would-be warden assassins end up beign among my favourite characters. Isn't there an option with Nathaniel where somebody (maybe even him) states that he might try to kill you (or did try), and you can respond "Some of my best friends have tried to kill me." I always liked that option.

[ejoslin]

Eudaemonium wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Minaleth, I was actually more talking about how the Warden's story's ending keeps changing. Origin slide (at least one) is completely discarded. Awakening one will probably be discarded as well with Witch Hunt. I am hoping against hope our Warden gets a satisfying ending there, WITH their love interest. But I'm not too optimistic.

As far as the Ultimate Sacrifice slides go, yeh, they're pretty sad and not that open to interpretation, especially the one where he was in love. I wasn't meaning that they were the same as the Awakening ending slide, though. It's just that someone had questioned that happening a few messages earlier.

Assuming that there probably won't be any epilogue slides in Witch Hunt, and that the Warden doesn't tragically die, it only takes place a year after Origins ends, which is 6 months after the start of Awakening, which is probably about 3-4 months long. In which case, whose to say that the rumours of Morrigan didn't reach you *as* you were preparing to leave for Antiva, and thought it best to wrap up loose ends before departing?

You have a point with Awakening, but then, Awakening is a semi-decent continuation of *some* Wardens' stories. If you go travelling or return to Orzammar or wherever it seems unlikely that you'd be made Warden Commander, or want to be. 'Tis why I don't import some characters. In fact, I might import some of them straight to WH, see how that turns out. I can't see my Dalish Rogue Morrimancer wanting to be Warden Commander, or standing for it.

Vaguely on topic, it seems that would-be warden assassins end up beign among my favourite characters. Isn't there an option with Nathaniel where somebody (maybe even him) states that he might try to kill you (or did try), and you can respond "Some of my best friends have tried to kill me." I always liked that option.

The only real problem is if someone DOES decide to become warden commander in Origins, that's the ending where Zevran stays, helps with recruitment and trains the new gray wardens though he never officially joins the order.  The other two slides, they adventure or stay in Denerim "for a time," which would fit more in with what happens in Awakening.

Anyway, Witch Hunt will be the first DLC I buy since that waste-of-money called Feast Day (oooooh, I was ticked off that I bought it to begin with).  I'm hoping it's done well.  My expectations are very low though!

[Eudaemonium]

LOL. I was so disappointed with Feast Day (seriously, who wasn't?), but it's come in handy a couple of times, so I almost forgive myself for purchasing it. I've bought all the DLC, but this one promises a bit of replayability simply due to being able to import my characters. I loved Leliana's Song, but there's very little point in playing it more than once.

I have to admit I was kinda diappointed that Zev wasn't in Awakening (I really think he'd have made more *sense* than Oghren as the returning character). But then I suppose you'd have had the Leli/Morri/Alimancers up in arms about it. Also a fair few people killed him. It was somewhat immersion-breaking though. I guess if you have Warden Alistair you can pretend he's off at Weisshaupt being inquisitioned as to why you're both still alive.

[wildannie]

 

Zevran, head of the crows 
wildannie.deviantart.com/#/d2xsvjo

Modifié par wildannie, 01 septembre 2010 - 11:16 .

[EccentricSage]

wildannie wrote...

 With regards the crows in awakenings... I agree that it's pretty cheap. 
Other things that drove me nuts in awakenings was Oghren cautioning my GW that Nathaniel might 'go all Zevran' (or something like that) as if Zev had betrayed her... Well that was him permanently demoted from the party.  I played it twice, second time didn't let Oghren join.
... and of course the massively cheap absence of Zev in the first place... where the **** is my fiance!  .... oh and my clothes! 

I think it was one of those inconsistencies they over looked. I'd imagine Oghren was supposed to say that only if Zev betrayed you in your Origins play through. They SHOULD have just taken that out, since they cut stuff that referenced your Origin. Or maybe he was just being Oghren and making fun of Zev for his pervy ways.

...epilogues...

...they're in antiva? taking over the crows? isn't crow recruitment heavily involved in the slave trade that Zev hates?... bah!

Bringing down the crows is not much better...(if that is what's implied by the battle).  What would happen to Zev's beloved Antiva. isn't it the crows that keep their neighbours at bay... I just don't see how that would work...

cheap, very cheap

I agree. If it had been a set up for DLC where you deal with the crow threat and secure Zevran's freedom from them, it wouldn't be so cheap. It was a very vague list of rumors, so one shouldn't assume he's taking over the crows or anything... Especially after reading the letter from Zevran that got left out of the game... It sounded like he was there to tie up some loose ends so that the two of you can have some measure of peace.

I really wish there was a DLC for it, but they would have somehow made the whole thing take place in Ferelden and it would have been just awful anyhow.

Oh... and I came across a fanfic based on that ending card... in which Zevran sneaks off to deal with the crows himself, leaving you only a letter, because he believes they intend to cause trouble for people his warden cares about in order to get to him. So he brings the fight to Antiva while the warden is preoccupied. I think that's a really excellent explanation.

Though I still hate the idea of the warden and him being parted in such a manner. It would not sit right with most of my wardens. My Dalish would tell the Wardens from Orlais that unless it's a Blight they can deal with the problem them damn selves. Then he'd leave for Antiva right on Zevran's heels.

DLC since then... pointless

BW have taught me a lesson in caution though, never again will I wait excitedly for the next DLC, which is a shame. I await the Witchhunt reviews.

Yeah. They went about expanding the game the wrong way completely, IMO. This is exactly how I feared the patchwork of DLC and expansions (more like expansion, singular, and hardly that)would play out this way, but all the dumb little fanboys in the Awakenings thread threw a fit at me for doubting BW. I would have rather been wrong. And that I was not, does not leave me too hopeful for DA2. The promo video was super cool looking, but that doesn't mean ****.

(I'm a little fearful we'll be getting a computer game hobbled to play more like a console game. DO NOT WANT.)