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Ridiculously Awesome: The Zevran Thread


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#7626
ejoslin

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People sent the hate messages because a part of them loves Zevran and it hurt them to see him hurt. Even some of the public comments to that video are, while I believe humorous and not malicious, a bit angry.

It's a tribute to how well he's written and just how good the voice acting is. You can hear his heart break, and that's painful!

Edit: Yay, ToP.  So...  Serissia's Pirate Zevran (love this)!

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Modifié par ejoslin, 04 mai 2013 - 11:05 .


#7627
Bhryaen

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lol- Pirate Zev... I think I like Klidi's sleek, black-clad assassin look better. :-P

@dralkjin
Hey, I could be entirely off. Maybe they wanted Zev to be the one lone bastion of sexual prowess for a specific reason. Your fantasies have equal merit. ;-)

@ejoslin
They were fairly good comments, weren't they? And again- on a poll/thread designed for the haters rather than the fans. Of course, the thread was closed due to "hateful comments" (of which there was one), but still. One comment mentioned a similar irony to the one you've seen in your YT vid comments: "Also an example how sex is taken waaaaay too seriously. Fictional character hits on everything that moves? Oh woe, oh noez! Fictional character thinks it's okay to kill for money everything that moves? Bah, no big deal."

I was surprised to find more people articulating what I'd originally speculated about him coming late to the party as a dual wielder after Leliana the archer has already insinuated herself, making him difficult to warm up to as a companion for logistical reasons. But that's why I use the No Follower Auto-Level mod so I can make him out-Leliana Leliana's default rogue build. After all, he does claim to have lockpicking skills they don't give him, so...

I also noticed on one of your Zevran-dwarf kiss vids there was a dwarf-hate comment. "Well, that was awkward" or some such. lol It's so stupid as to be comical. A human kissing down to an elf's height or an elf kissing up to a human's height- no prob. An elf kissing down to a dwarf's height- awkward! Sexual squeamishness (and what it tends to reveal) is one of the richest sources of untapped comic material going... Zev exploits it so well (and Lelly even turns it on Zev once).

#7628
ejoslin

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Yeh, it's funny how some people think a height difference makes a difference. I'm a half foot shorter than my husband (I'm 5'7, he's 6'1), so about the same as an elf male/dwarf female, and there's nothing awkward about it. Of course, people can bend their backs which makes it easier :)

I do wish there had been more discussion in the wiki thread.

And yes, Zevran coming in late as a rogue without lock picking does make it a bit harder for people to integrate him. I use Charsen's ZevranASAP as well as the respec mod so it isn't an issue for me. But leveling him as a str/dex rogue as apparently intended makes him a decent tank and/or damage dealer, but most people don't think of rogues as tanks. In DAO, though, it's easy to do with enough dex and medium armor.

Now I'm overanalyzing the str/dex rogue aspect. Loghain, for instance, has a ton of willpower, and that has to be a roleplay thing (also makes him a bit crappy as a tank until respec'ed). I do wonder if that's possible -- Leliana has a lot of cunning, Zevran does not.

Okay, make of that what you want. It's probably nothing.

#7629
dralkjin

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I love that picture of Zevran. He looks good as a pirate. I completely agree that Zevran is a very well written character and yes the voice acting is great too. When he tells the story of Rinna it always breaks my heart. I have never felt so much emotion when playing a video game before DAO. The creators did an excellent job at making the player feel like it’s real. The other thing I love about it is that it’s easy to get attached to all of the companions. At least it was for me. One thing that I disliked about DA2 is that it wasn’t possible to be friends with all of the companions because of the rivalry.

Yeah Bhryaen, I know what you mean. There were other things in the game besides Zev’s sex scenes that make me believe that he’s experienced though. The lines that Faerunner mentioned were some of them. Also, when you first meet him, if you get into the discussion about the bed warming, he says he can go all night. In his sex scenes it looks like they did go all night. lol Another thing to consider is his background of being raised by ****s and sold to the Crows when he was a youngling. We know he had to do whatever he needed to survive. I don’t like to imagine any of the horrible things that went on during his training with the Crows, because it’s too disturbing. However, since we know that he is skilled in seduction, we can conclude that he probably learned as much as he could about sex. I also believe confidence comes with experience and Zevran definitely has confidence.

I don’t like the fact that Zevran doesn’t have the lock picking skills when you first get him either. I always give them to him anyway, because I prefer to take him rather than Leliana. Zev still kicks ass for me every time. He rarely ever gets knocked out of a battle. Leliana hardly ever does either though. Sometimes I take Zevran and Leliana together depending on what I am doing. I always take both of them on the Jarvia quest and any other quest where you are mainly fighting rogues.

#7630
Guest_Faerunner_*

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dralkjin wrote...

Faerunner, I’m glad you agree that Zevran is experienced. The way you described him is exactly how I see him. I don’t think of Alistair as prudish though. I think he’s just a little shy and nervous, which makes sense for any virgin, really. I honestly wouldn’t even know about any of the sex scenes with Alistair, Morrigan, or Leliana if it wasn’t for youtube though. I have only gone to the tent with Zevran with all of my gray wardens.


Oh yeah, Zev knows what's up. ;)

Sorry, "prude" is my go-to word for people who aren't very comfortable talking about sex in public. (It's what most people call me.) I know he's shy and nervous when a virgin, but the reason I call him that is because he remains so even after gaining a sex life. After the Warden and Alistair get involved, Zevran can try to give him advice on how to improve in bed and Wynne can try to give him The Talk (among other instances) and he gets VERY embarrassed and shuts down the conversation immediately. It's very funny! ^^ 

Yeah Bhryaen, I know what you mean. There were other things in the game besides Zev’s sex scenes that make me believe that he’s experienced though. The lines that Faerunner mentioned were some of them. Also, when you first meet him, if you get into the discussion about the bed warming, he says he can go all night. In his sex scenes it looks like they did go all night. lol Another thing to consider is his background of being raised by ****s and sold to the Crows when he was a youngling. We know he had to do whatever he needed to survive. I don’t like to imagine any of the horrible things that went on during his training with the Crows, because it’s too disturbing. However, since we know that he is skilled in seduction, we can conclude that he probably learned as much as he could about sex. I also believe confidence comes with experience and Zevran definitely has confidence.


Indeed, not to mention the many stories has relating to his experience. When trying to seduce you, he mentions techniques that "one can only learn growing up in an Antivan ****house." He mentions how the Crows often pick elves because humans find them attractive, thus easier to seduce. He mentions the Crows require "a certain open-mindedness" to stay in their ranks; meaning they need assassins who can swing both ways so they'll have a greater chance of seducing potential targets, and they likely don't believe claims of "I'm bisexual" on good faith alone. :/ 

In party banter, he mentions how much he enjoys seducing targets. When describing his adventures, he mentions how his first target was a woman he wound up rolling into bed with. When he gives you the ring (<3) he mentions how he nicked it off a target, a noble wearing it... and nothing else. Run into Isabela and she'll mention how he assassinated her husband and how profusely she thanked him all night. When describing the Crows, he mentions how it's not so bad as "they get you wine, women... or men." Ask him about love and he'll mention how his life has only been pleasure and death. 

Virtually every story of his involves one sexual encounter or another. Even his voice actor apparently summed Zevran up before recording: "So basically he's like a sexed-up Inigo Montoya?" :lol:

Modifié par Faerunner, 05 mai 2013 - 11:06 .


#7631
ejoslin

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That Zevran is experienced is even a question? It's one of the integral parts of his character. At one point he'll admit that it is both one of the best parts of what he does, but also that it can be unpleasant.

It's why his ending up associating sex with the warden with love is such a huge thing.

ETA: I don't mean this in a ****y way at all -- I apologize if it comes off that way.  I'm just surprised that that could even be a question.

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 mai 2013 - 10:51 .


#7632
Klidi

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Faerunner wrote...

Indeed, not to mention the many stories has relating to his experience. When trying to seduce you, he mentions techniques that "one can only learn growing up in an Antivan ****house." He mentions how the Crows often pick elves because humans find them attractive, thus easier to seduce. He mentions the Crows require "a certain open-mindedness" to stay in their ranks; meaning they need assassins who can swing both ways so they'll have a greater chance of seducing potential targets, and they likely don't believe claims of "I'm bisexual" on good faith alone. :/ 


This. I agree it's disturbing to think about it, especially if you remember that he was bought out from the Antivan brothel when he was seven.

In fact... Zevran shows signs of a survivor of child abuse. I knew a bit about that subject when I first played the game, and after I met Zev, I did a lot more research specifically about abuse of boys. I learned a lot of unpleasant facts, e.g. how kids are groomed to be prostitutes through pleasure and shame "but your body likes it, your body doesn't lie, it proves that even if you say no, you in fact want it, you're a dirty, naughty, shameless person and deserve all that happens to you..." Ever since  I have a problem to read stories and fanfictions that use "but your body likes it" argument.

I don't know if Gaider did all that research and if he intentionally wrote Zev that way; I like to think he did, and that alone earned him eternal respect from me. :)

Because, Zev really fits... He's flirting with everyone, he's promiscous, but, on the other hand, he has trouble to connect with other person on emotional level, and when things between him and the Warden get serious, he starts refusing sex. So in fact, his lecherous side is NOT him being so gret in coping with his difficult past - it's him not coping well at all, only suppressing memories and thoughs about his past and hiding behind a mask.

Normally healing of victims takes years. Zev, with the Warden's help, can make significant progress within just one year... He's ridiculously aweseme. :D

#7633
ejoslin

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Heh, to quote Zevran:

"Ahh, it's just old scars and nothing more which you see. Ignore them as I do, and perhaps they'll go away."

I think you're spot on.

#7634
dralkjin

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Faerunner, although I have never made one of my characters go to the tent with Alistair in my game, I have heard some of those conversation on youtube or read them in fan fictions, so I understand what you mean now. I agree that it is kind of funny how Alistair gets embarrassed so easily when someone tries to talk to him about sex. I’m surprised that he had the courage to ask Zevran how to woo someone, knowing that Zevran would probably make fun of him. Leliana wouldn’t even talk to Zevran about her vision, because she knew he would make fun of her. Ha ha! Sexed up Inigo Montoya is a good way to describe Zevran’s personality.

Ejoslin, I didn’t take your comment in a bad way, but I wanted to let you know that the discussion about Zevran being experienced wasn’t supposed to be meant as a question. I was only questioning whether his sex scenes were supposed to portray his experience. I was only joking with Bhryaen about ruining my fantasy. I know that Zevran is supposed to be experienced. After my initial question about Zevran's sex scene, I wanted to keep the conversation going by discussing Zevran and his experience. I’m sorry if it seemed like I was questioning it. It was meant to be more like I was thinking out loud, but including the rest of you to join in on my thoughts. Unfortunately, I am not always good at transferring my thoughts into text, which is why I don’t write fan fiction. I am trying to improve my writing, which is one of the reasons I have returned to discuss my favorite DAO character with all of you awesome people who love him.

Klidi, I agree and I also hate to think of poor little Zevran being abused as a child. I’m just happy that our gray wardens can help him to learn how to love.

#7635
ejoslin

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Bleh, I had a feeling that my post was going to be taken as negative, which I didn't mean it to be. And it wasn't that you were unclear, I wasn't questioning whether you thought he was experienced. I guess I mistook what you had said to mean that some people didn't think he was, and given some of the fandoms around the internet, it actually wouldn't surprise me if people rewrote him to where he really was not that experienced.

As to whether the sex scenes variety are meant to reflect that he's an experienced lover, it makes sense.

Anyway, sorry I made you feel you needed to explain further -- it was my misunderstanding, not your writing!

#7636
Melca36

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One of my all time favorite Zevran lines:wizard:


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#7637
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EDIT: Sorry, I think I contributed to the "Is Zevran experienced?" confusion. I think we can all agree that he is. Whether it's the reason his sex scene involves lots of positions is still up for personal interpretation, though I think there's an argument to be made for both sides. Anyway...

dralkjin wrote...

Faerunner, although I have never made one of my characters go to the tent with Alistair in my game, I have heard some of those conversation on youtube or read them in fan fictions, so I understand what you mean now. I agree that it is kind of funny how Alistair gets embarrassed so easily when someone tries to talk to him about sex. I’m surprised that he had the courage to ask Zevran how to woo someone, knowing that Zevran would probably make fun of him.


Indeed, I think this shows both his insecurity in his ability to woo the Warden without assistence, and his courage in asking someone who he knew could help him but could also make fun of him. He took the plunge anyway. Also funny how Alistair is able to (more) easily discuss matters of the heart but stumbles over the topic of sex, while Zevran easily discusses sex but stumbles over words of love. They make such an interesting contrast. ^^

Klidi wrote...

This. I agree it's disturbing to think about it, especially if you remember that he was bought out from the Antivan brothel when he was seven.

In fact... Zevran shows signs of a survivor of child abuse. I knew a bit about that subject when I first played the game, and after I met Zev, I did a lot more research specifically about abuse of boys. I learned a lot of unpleasant facts, e.g. how kids are groomed to be prostitutes through pleasure and shame "but your body likes it, your body doesn't lie, it proves that even if you say no, you in fact want it, you're a dirty, naughty, shameless person and deserve all that happens to you..." Ever since  I have a problem to read stories and fanfictions that use "but your body likes it" argument.


Indeed! In fact, this actually adds a new meaning to his repeated assertion that he is "the son of a ****" and how he has known nothing but pleasure and death. He usually claims he doesn't mind and even likes it, but sometimes his tone suggests otherwise.

For instance, when mentioning how his mother died in childbirth, he calls her "my first victim, as it were..." Implying that he not only feels guilty, but he feels like he could never be anything but a killer since his first act of existing was to cause someone to die. (Kind of gives new meaning to his decision to remain an assassin despite leaving the Crows.)

On the flip side, there are his repeated assertions of being born from a ****. Ignoring the fact that ****-shaming is wrong and his mother no doubt did what she had to to survive, if he was abused as a child, this could no doubt further suggest feeling that he is, as you said, "dirty, naughty, shameless," and undeserving of love; because not only has his body liked sex from an early age (even if his mind/emotions didn't), but he came from such a womb.

Poor Zevran probably feels damned on both sides. =(

I don't know if Gaider did all that research and if he intentionally wrote Zev that way; I like to think he did, and that alone earned him eternal respect from me. :)

Indeed. I suspect that he did so intentionally because he did something similar with Fenris. (Technically a teenager or young adult when his master abused him, he was mindwiped by the the ritual forced on him and was as good as a child when his master took advantage of him.)

I've... noticed that children who go through that either become overly receptive or overly rejective of sex. It seems that Zevran falls on the former scale and Fenris on the latter, but both involve very believable difficulty in connecting with people on an emotional level. (Which makes it all the more rewarding when you do win their hearts and help them overcome the worst of their insecurities! ^^)

Because, Zev really fits... He's flirting with everyone, he's promiscous, but, on the other hand, he has trouble to connect with other person on emotional level, and when things between him and the Warden get serious, he starts refusing sex. So in fact, his lecherous side is NOT him being so gret in coping with his difficult past - it's him not coping well at all, only suppressing memories and thoughs about his past and hiding behind a mask.

Indeed. I've had characters that were turned off by Zevran's promiscuity and characters that were turned on by it, but I've never had characters that recognized it as a way to cope with childhood trauma. (Coping with hard life in general? Yes, but nothing deep as that.) Now I feel a tad guilty about it. :/

Normally healing of victims takes years. Zev, with the Warden's help, can make significant progress within just one year... He's ridiculously aweseme. :D

Amen! :lol:

Modifié par Faerunner, 07 mai 2013 - 02:09 .


#7638
Bhryaen

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Zev's humor and unbridled sexuality aren't the worst coping mechanisms to have though. Like Loghain said (after getting his ass kicked and deciding to be reasonable), facing the stress of command, most of his military colleagues turned to drink or religion. But it's not like Zev is a "sexaholic" or something, and much of the sex he talks in banter seems more a matter of teasing and using others' inhibitions against them deflectively than genuine interest.

Now Oghren by contrast is a bit overwrought on sexuality in his banter- as Sigrun ultimately exposes him for. So whatever Zev's personal hang-ups, he never gets so untoward or gets unmasked as such. Zev seems a mite more self-aware.

Not that "survivor recovery" isn't built into Zev- hard to see how it couldn't be at least in some way- but it's not as if he wears victimhood on his bootstraps. He himself responds to concern about his "upbringing" by pointing out that whatever suffering and privations he endured as a Crow, the lifestyle and social options he enjoyed weren't exactly dismal. Not many paupers are into their own haircare as much as he's alleged to be. So he's not exactly a cookie-cutter psych profile. Consider also:

1. He's already fairly savvy about interpersonal reality. He's just too good at pushing people's buttons to be so caught up in his "inner angst" as to not be aware of other people's feelings.
2. He's already developed healthy personality traits- humor and wit topmost, but also a good measure of self-honesty, a key ingredient in sanity. He makes no rationalizations for his murder of Rinna, for ex. and truly struggles to come to terms with himself over it.
3. He's also developed a healthy outlook for embracing positive change in life. After all, after a lifetime as a Crow he flips from being a Crow to a loyal Gray Warden companion in a matter of minutes. Not everyone is so versatile, even when facing liberation.
4. Despite his recurring concern for the welfare of elves, he criticizes the Denerim Alienage elves for being complacent about their treatment- refusing to adopt a victim status as a crutch.

Plus it's not like he's been incapable of love until the Warden came along. He felt for Rinna but never got the chance to have a heart-to-heart and risk emotional vulnerability with her (if she were capable) before the incident happened. After a few months with the Warden, he's smitten again and has a chance few Crows ever get in a lifetime to express tenderness for another human(oid) being- albeit with a conversation option for you to break his heart, but he takes the chance. Zev's lack of an ongoing love life and the sanguinary scenery of his living hasn't kept him from becoming a strong and even somewhat wise person (despite his low Cunning score heh).

Maybe his voice actor made light of Zev as over-sexed in a single soundbite, but he certainly voiced all Zev's emotional nuances through the game splendidly.

Bah, but maybe I can't really speak. I just discovered that my Sywynlae never even got Zev's earring offer somehow (just due to neglected opportunities, not a bug). At least he did stay with her to help train new Wardens. *sigh* Maybe on my replay of Kruklya in a while I'll manage to play through his romance fully for once...

#7639
Bhryaen

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@Melca36
Yet another gem embedded in the DAO woodwork to be discovered. Where is that? Fort Drakon?

#7640
Corker

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Bhryaen wrote...
Now Oghren by contrast is a bit overwrought on sexuality in his banter- as Sigrun ultimately exposes him for. So whatever Zev's personal hang-ups, he never gets so untoward or gets unmasked as such. 


Actually, hardened!Leliana does almost exactly to Zevran what Sigrun does to Oghren.

Zevran: I must say, dear woman, I rather like this change in you.
Leliana: That's nice, but I'm not sleeping with you.
Zevran: Oh, I can think of many other things we can do other than sleep.
Leliana: Oh? Then let's see what's in those trousers. I like to make informed decisions, after all.
Zevran: That's rather saucy of you, isn't it? You really have changed!
Leliana: Yes, yes. I don't see those trousers coming down, however, do I?
Zevran: Err...you just want me to show you? Right here?
Leliana: Why not? Aren't you the shameless lothario you claim to be? There are rumors about you elves and I intend to see them proved untrue before I even consider a tumble.
Zevran: On second thought, perhaps you've traveled to an awkward place where I dare not follow...
Leliana: I thought as much.

#7641
Guest_Faerunner_*

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Bhryaen wrote...

Zev's humor and unbridled sexuality aren't the worst coping mechanisms to have though. Like Loghain said (after getting his ass kicked and deciding to be reasonable), facing the stress of command, most of his military colleagues turned to drink or religion. But it's not like Zev is a "sexaholic" or something, and much of the sex he talks in banter seems more a matter of teasing and using others' inhibitions against them deflectively than genuine interest.


They aren't the worst, but they aren't the best either. As you said, he uses sexual banter deflectively. He avoids opening up and connecting with people, so he uses humor and sex to keep people from learning who he really is or what he's really about, which is a very lonely way to be.

Not that "survivor recovery" isn't built into Zev- hard to see how it couldn't be at least in some way- but it's not as if he wears victimhood on his bootstraps. He himself responds to concern about his "upbringing" by pointing out that whatever suffering and privations he endured as a Crow, the lifestyle and social options he enjoyed weren't exactly dismal. Not many paupers are into their own haircare as much as he's alleged to be. So he's not exactly a cookie-cutter psych profile.

We never said that he was. We--I'm merely pointing out that he is more deeply hurt than he allows himself or other people to believe. Not admitting pain to yourself or other people (particularly ones who care about you and want to help you) keeps you from confronting it, thus healing from it, which not a good way to live. (In fact, he tries to commit suicide by attacking the Warden--that's a pretty clear indication that he's not all that happy with himself or his life.)

Plus it's not like he's been incapable of love until the Warden came along.

We never said that he was. We're saying, and I quote: "he has trouble to connect with other person on emotional level." And this is a problem because this difficulty in connecting emotionally helps to cost his relationship with and the life of Rinna (who he turned on partly because he didn't want to admit he cared about her) and it could (sometimes does) cost his relationship with the Warden since he withholds emotionally then withdraws physically.

If the Warden never encourages him to talk through his insecurities about love that he hides under humor and sex (something he avoids doing most of his life), I think it's safe to say he probably would have carried on having casual flings, believing he was never worthy of more.

Zev's lack of an ongoing love life and the sanguinary scenery of his living hasn't kept him from becoming a strong and even somewhat wise person (despite his low Cunning score heh).

No, of course not. Klidi and I both acknowledge so in our posts. (Sorry to speak for you, Klidi.) Zevran is remarkably well-adjusted for someone who goes through what he has gone through (I still think he is a surprisingly great person despite a lifetime of being conditioned to be the opposite), and we acknowledge that he does overcome his emotional obstacles surprisingly quickly and efficiently. Zevran is just that ridiculously awesome! :D

Modifié par Faerunner, 07 mai 2013 - 03:00 .


#7642
whirlygirl9

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Hi all!  I'm new to the community and I couldn't bring Antivan Brandy (virtual Antivan Brandy is so unsatisfying) so I humbly  submit a picture I drew of Zev this evening!  (sorry i don't have a scanner so i had to do the stupid cell phone)

Glad to be on board!

http://whirlygirl9.d...hirlygirl9&qo=0

Modifié par whirlygirl9, 07 mai 2013 - 04:25 .


#7643
Klidi

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Bhryaen wrote...
Now Oghren by contrast is a bit overwrought on sexuality in his banter- as Sigrun ultimately exposes him for. So whatever Zev's personal hang-ups, he never gets so untoward or gets unmasked as such. Zev seems a mite more self-aware....

Oghren is a warrior and a drunk - there's nothing. His life was very different from Zev (I'm not saying  "easier" or "worse", just different). Zevran was trained as an assassin who used his body to seduce his  marks. While  Oghren's crude comments are crude because he doesn't know any better, I always suspected that Zevran was overdoing it because we wanted to scare the others away. :D

Bhryaen wrote...
Not that "survivor recovery" isn't built into Zev- hard to see how it couldn't be at least in some way- but it's not as if he wears victimhood on his bootstraps. He himself responds to concern about his "upbringing" by pointing out that whatever suffering and privations he endured as a Crow, the lifestyle and social options he enjoyed weren't exactly dismal. Not many paupers are into their own haircare as much as he's alleged to be. So he's not exactly a cookie-cutter psych profile. Consider also:

Yes, one would expect that victims of abuse will be all angsty, depressed, avoiding sex... There are no "cookie-cutter psych profiles" -  these things can't be generalised, of course, each person's reaction is individual just as conditions of  each abuse case is individual.  But, according to sources I found (you don't have to trust me, google it yourself), among more common singns are liberal views on sex, flirting, promiscuity, easy-going attitude, ignoring or brushing away painful memories, refusal to talk about it, pretending 'it's the past now, I'm ok', and on the other hand, problems with trusting people, connecting on a deeper level, more intimate and permanent relationship, expressing the feelings...
As I said, I was surprised how well it fit to Zev... But, I'm not saying it the only correct interpretation of  Zevran. One of the reasons I love this game - and fanfiction - is that there are so many possible interpretations and views. :D

As for money, it's true that Zev says that being Crow gets you some privileges. But he also says that apprentices lived in a small appartment near cesspit - so apprentices don't live that much better than a beggar. He also hints several times at life conditions, and though he says it never happened to him, later we see that he lied in some respects (e.g. torture)...

Bhryaen wrote...
1. He's already fairly savvy about interpersonal reality. He's just too good at pushing people's buttons to be so caught up in his "inner angst" as to not be aware of other people's feelings.
2. He's already developed healthy personality traits- humor and wit topmost, but also a good measure of self-honesty, a key ingredient in sanity. He makes no rationalizations for his murder of Rinna, for ex. and truly struggles to come to terms with himself over it.
3. He's also developed a healthy outlook for embracing positive change in life. After all, after a lifetime as a Crow he flips from being a Crow to a loyal Gray Warden companion in a matter of minutes. Not everyone is so versatile, even when facing liberation.
4. Despite his recurring concern for the welfare of elves, he criticizes the Denerim Alienage elves for being complacent about their treatment- refusing to adopt a victim status as a crutch.:

True, and that's why he fascinates me. :D He wants to change. Even as a Crow he try to run to Dalish. He's not accepting with his fate to be a Crow,  he's willing to rather die than to continue wit it, and when he senses a chance with the Wardens, he immidiately uses it.
But I don't think he flips to a loyal companion in a matter of minutes. It takes time and the effort from the Warden to lower Zevran's walls. If he comes to the conclusion that it was useless, he will either leave the Warden or betrray him/her to the Crows.

Bhryaen wrote...
Plus it's not like he's been incapable of love until the Warden came along. He felt for Rinna but never got the chance to have a heart-to-heart and risk emotional vulnerability with her (if she were capable) before the incident happened.

True, but the incident happened because of his inability to trust her - even though they were lovers, he was ready to believe she was a traitor and assissted in her execution, even spat on her corpse.  

Bhryaen wrote...
Zev's lack of an ongoing love life and the sanguinary scenery of his living hasn't kept him from becoming a strong and even somewhat wise person (despite his low Cunning score heh).

I agree! :D And 'cunning' is not 'wisdom' anyway. :D

Bhryaen wrote...
Maybe his voice actor made light of Zev as over-sexed in a single soundbite, but he certainly voiced all Zev's emotional nuances through the game splendidly.

He did - without his voice, Zev wouldn't be Zev. :D

Bhryaen wrote...
Bah, but maybe I can't really speak. I just discovered that my Sywynlae never even got Zev's earring offer somehow (just due to neglected opportunities, not a bug). At least he did stay with her to help train new Wardens. *sigh* Maybe on my replay of Kruklya in a while I'll manage to play through his romance fully for once...

I fully recommend  it! It's different to watch it on youtube with a strange Warden and to watch it with your Warden.  :D

Modifié par Klidi, 07 mai 2013 - 09:06 .


#7644
RuskaMonster

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You guys have no idea how happy I am that I found this forum. Seeing so many good character analyses truly warms the hart.

Go team hurrah.

#7645
Bhryaen

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Hm, seems my last post came across as a polemic... for something. I'd meant mostly only to accentuate a part of the picture that seemed lacking, not to contradict anything.

Well, I'll just start by saying that we (here in my particular resolute faction of ardent Zevran supporters) do hereby assert... uh... Oh, where are our position papers?

The main thing I mentioned that got lost in translation is that Zev's deflectiveness and reluctance to impart all his most intimate details, yes, in part has to do with him not trusting people (due to upbringing), but in most of the cases we witness in-game his deflections are fairly justified. Does he really have cause to open up to Wynne when she prods him about changing his lifestyle? Or Alistair? Or Leliana? Or Morrigan? (OK, maybe Leliana.) Few of us open up to everyone we meet, and it's not exactly a counter-productive mechanism. When we deflect people who attempt to prise into places where we'd rather not let them, it's not exactly a failure on our part, is it? At least not for us in the Zevran Cool & Calculated Faction. And Zev does it in the most hillarious and disarming way. Again- humor and sex aren't the worst deflections you can receive. Threats and tantrums demonstrate far worse coping abilities... as seem fairly common in DA2 banter... (I'll never play DA2...)

Not to mention Zev's profession which- even if he'd had a childhood listening to the Cousland nanny's bedtime stories- requires a bit of stand-offishness for survival. And Zev may give up the Crows instantly, but he doesn't relinquish his profession- not for an instant. Best to limit closeness only to those you know you can trust- or be dead- and that process takes time, exactly the time he has with the Warden.

True about his behavior with Rinna though. The Gauntlet Guardian nails him on that too- as much as he can since, as we see, Zev is honestly not hiding anything from himself on the matter. His outward relishing of the murder of Rinna (at the time it happened anyway) has all the signs of him hiding from genuine intimacy through the death of his beloved. But then again, what do we really know of Rinna? How can we know that she herself had ever opened up with him or never showed signs of a tendency for betrayal, regardless of Zev's feelings and wishes on the matter to the contrary?

So the point I was making was that Zev likely does consider himself more than "worthy of better" than the life which the Crows have in store for him, but that he hasn't explored because, well, the Crows, and secondly no ravishing Warden ever showed up to provide such an exquisite opportunity for that "better" after all. I can certainly see him being a bit less sure of himself after his all-too-recent incident with Rinna as well. It was probably unlikely he would meet another Rinna in his line of work after having not met one until that point as it was- and to have lost her as he did made it worse- so it's not surprising he attempted suicide by Gray Warden (or the darkness of having succeeded). But nevertheless he manages to bounce back and be open to a relationship after all within a matter of months. Not that he pursues one without the Warden prompting him, but it's the same with every other NPC in that regard. Actually it may be his experience with Rinna that makes the formation of a meaningful relationship the most meaningful factor in his life decisions at that point, having had a taste of what he'd been missing all his life...

But, yeah, what Klidi said about open interpretations. Not that any game out there lacks incomplete story arcs, but DAO is very dense in them and has such a rich basis in creative writing anyway...

Oh, and what I'd meant was that Zev truly is loyal to the Warden at first. Morrigan is spot on in all her mistrust of the assassin who has only his treacherous word to convince us he's not intending to "finish the job" when the opportunity presents itself. For all Zev's explanation that he can't return to the Crows, he does attempt to if he betrays the Warden later. So he could backstab the Warden any time- poison the food, etc- but until that much later critical moment he's a devoted member of Team Warden, as Lorelei puts it. Even if he's mostly just hanging with the Warden to determine if a lifestyle choice outside the Crows is viable and worth the danger- unless you get to know him better, of course, which gives him the most appealing incentive- you can already count on him within minutes of his assassination attempt. That's someone with a good grasp on their prospects.

Ironically my DN is stuck in a save at Zev's assassination attempt right now. Despite the intention to do this run with Leliana instead, I'd added the ZevranASAP mod just after Sywynlae's run, but now I'm facing him early (*gulp*) and with a character who has little inclination to even recruit him. My DN does have a penchant for giving people a chance- except Trian, though that turned out badly for him- but... a royal heir trusting an assassin who tried to kill him? At present Zev (and his fellow "travelers") is safe in limbo... as is Jagan heh...

P.S. Corker, I knew about that- mentioned it a couple posts back myself- but I was trying not to be repetitive or repeat myself. Though she doesn't unmask him so much as turn his same deflection method against him. Works too! :-) I also didn't want to repeat it because it would feel like insisting- on behalf of Leliana (*grimace*)- on how Zev was foiled. But I didn't recognize that was only banter from a hardened!Leliana. What does softy!Leliana say? Or the banter just never happens in that case?

Modifié par Bhryaen, 07 mai 2013 - 10:11 .


#7646
ejoslin

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The banter never happens. I actually restored it to the game. Incorrect hardened flag was keeping it out of the vanilla game.

I have nothing else to add at this point.  This has been great reading.

Modifié par ejoslin, 07 mai 2013 - 11:04 .


#7647
BloodsongVengeance

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welcome ruska and whirly!! :)

good to see some fresh blood arrive. ...after all these years.


haha, i don't have anything constructive to add either, but it has been fascinating reading.
::waves at all the regulars, too::

Modifié par BloodsongVengeance, 08 mai 2013 - 03:49 .


#7648
Guest_Faerunner_*

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Bhryaen wrote...

Hm, seems my last post came across as a polemic... for something. I'd meant mostly only to accentuate a part of the picture that seemed lacking, not to contradict anything.


No offense, but you seemed to be adding to part of the picture that wasn't there and addressing things that we never said. Klidi and then I were just observing that Zevran seems to be displaying characteristics common to people who were abused as children, which we seem to agree makes sense based on what we know of his character and background.

You seemed to interpretate this to mean we were ignoring all of his strong, positive personality traits to make him a cookie-cutter victim or "living psyche profile." This is not the case. Zevran is as witty, funny, charming, exciting, adventurous, experienced as ever and we all know it. I'm just commenting that I think he has more trust, intimacy and self-worth issues than he lets on, and speculating that childhood abuse might be a contributing factor (based on what we know of him and how people in that situation tend to respond).

#7649
Klidi

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It's time for a shameless selfplug again! New chapter of Failed to Fail, Crossing Swords is finally up.

#7650
Bhryaen

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Not to distract from Klidi's submission, but I'm obligated (yeah, right) to express gratitude for a Corker story having made my day... and for bringing on the gusher again while I'm at work. Sod you, Duster! In a good way... (And there's no other thread to throw accolade confetti, so...)

The story (which everyone here probably read yrs ago) involves a penitent Zevran who- I couldn't help thinking as the scenery unfolded, "Of course Zevran would go to the Gauntlet for that..." As might so many who otherwise had no interest in the nice vase at the end of the hall. Such a clever use of DAO material... Love the Guardian brush-off, anticipating its lines...

The Chantry lines at the beginning were a put-off at first though: Zevran Who Memorizes Chantry Lines. I couldn't tell who the protagonist of the story was. It was mentioned by ejoslin in another thread that Zevran is semi-religious, but I've never seen that of him in-game, wondering at where this impression is coming from. The closest I've got was being surprised at how quickly he invokes "Maker's breath" types of exclamations. I didn't recognize the Chantry was so widespread as to also have insinuated itself into Antiva, so it was a mild shock. I mean, he was indoctrinated into the Crows but seemed to have developed a deep savvy regarding their requirements and the limitations of their actual effectiveness. I thought that sort of mental distancing might extend also to religion.

And just because I like visuals, here's Zevran meeting Jagan Aeducan- yet another character gets to shake Zev's hand. It was like old friends coming together after years apart- ready to reconnect and reminisce- like a homecoming.

Once upon a time Jagan and Zevran were both traveling on the road, and Jagan happened on Zevran who was ecstatic to see the kingly dwarf and his companions. Immediately Zevran smiled and extended a hand in greeting...

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Sensing a celebration ahead, Jagan smiled back. "Greetings, good elf! How are you this fine day?"

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And Zevran returned the smile again with joy and said, "And greetings to you too, good dwarf! I would be happy to introduce you to my friends, Traveller and Traveller... And nooo, they're not twins, silly."

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Jagan was pleased to meet them and introduced them to his friends too and soon everyone was acquainted and Zevran's friend, Traveller- no, the other one- made some delightful magic tricks to entertain everyone. Then Zevran asked Jagan nicely if it would please him to see Zev's favorite backscratcher that Zevran carries on his back... for scratching.

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Well, Jagan said, "I would be happy to see your backscratcher!" So Zevran took it from his back, but, oops, he dropped it. Fortunately Jagan was quick to dive to catch it so it wouldn't get dirty on the ground. And Jagan hit the dirt catching the backscratcher... several times... Ouch. And Zev said, "You seem so smitten with me. Have you fallen for me already?"

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And they laughed and played and made merriment and killed each other repeatedly, and it was a grand time like neither of them had ever experienced.

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So Jagan asked him to come along- because it's a redemption story- and Zevran said Yes. And all was good and happy and overly pleasant. THE END

Oh, why can't I meet my favorite character in a Denerim pub instead?:P

Modifié par Bhryaen, 11 mai 2013 - 06:03 .