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[ejoslin]

Zevran/Alistair banter.

Zevran: So are you a very religious man, Alistair? I am curious. I believe I heard you say you were raised in an abbey? (curious)
Alistair: I was raised in a castle. I was schooled in the abbey. As far as being religious... I don't know. Not especially.
Alistair: What about you? Not in your line of work, I expect.
Zevran: Why do you say that? I happen to be quite devoted, in my way, as most Antivans are. (surprised)
Alistair: Truly? But you kill people. For money. (shocked)
Zevran: And I ask forgiveness for my sins from the Maker every chance I get. What manner of monster do you think I am? (a bit affronted)
Alistair: But... you ask forgiveness and then you go right on with your sinning! (baffled)
Zevran: The Maker has never objected. Why should you? (annoyed)
Alistair: I... have no idea. (blown away -- he can't even think of an argument)
Zevran: Well there you go. Perhaps you ought to think about asking for a little forgiveness yourself, hm? (a little offended by Alistair's "self-righteousness", scolding him)

I'm too lazy to go in game and get the screenie

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 mai 2013 - 04:41 .

[BloodsongVengeance]

hrm.

i always interpreted that as zevran mocking alistair, and mocking religion, and the 'forgiveness' of the maker. in a sort of 'yes, i'm a murderer! but i ask forgiveness from a forgiving god, so that's okay, then' way.


and i'm curious as to what that thing is in the screenie there? looks almost like zevran took an arrow to the eye... :X

[Klidi]

Zevran can also give info about the statues in the Andraste Temple, with the explanation that he used to go to the Chantry as a child.

[Bhryaen]

Ahh, that exchange... Is that the only place though? I thought Zev was just being facetious there with a straight face to confound Alistair when Al turns the question back on Zev. I mean, sincerity is doubtful when asking forgiveness for doing something despite doing so continuously and without hesitation. Punching someone repeatedly while asking forgiveness for it between each punch just seems like a cruel taunt, regardless of how much the puncher may actually wish to be forgiven. The most serious interpretation I get from it- presuming he actually does do the asking and isn't just making it up for Alistair's "benefit"- is that he takes a cynical attitude to the process and relishes the lack of consequences- no deity intervention to scold or punish him- and the ease with which his assassinations become thereby divinely accepted de facto. But "no deity is objecting despite asking regularly; therefore it must be OK" isn't exactly a logic error I'd have assumed of Zevran, so that's why I figured it must be cleverly deflective wit again. After all he does call the alleged urn of the ashes of the Maker's beloved a nice home decor accessory.

Btw what's that transparent, plastic-like shaft in the picture? Looks like it's in Zev's eye.

[Bhryaen]

Gah- must check first before posting... didn't see new posts. Hm, I'll have to run Zev through the Gauntlet again to hear his Chantry revelations. Not surprising I might have missed that. Or maybe his comment gets suppressed with someone else in the party? Anyway, thanks, Klidi.

[ejoslin]

*grin* It's a toolset screenie -- I was too lazy to go into the game to take it. If I had the whole picture instead of just the crop, you'd see it was an arrow that would direct the animation.

ETA: I took that conversation to mean that Zevran was religious in the same way a mafia hitman could be a devout Catholic (don't yell at me, everyone in the Godfather was a devout RC).

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 mai 2013 - 12:50 .

[BloodsongVengeance]

an arrow that directs animation?? i've never seen that in my toolset....


it's always hard to tell with zevran. when he's telling the truth, he sounds like he's lying; and when he's lying, he sounds like he's telling the truth.

i still don't think (personally, which has no bearing on The Truth) that zevran is devout. if he was catechized in the chantry as a small boy... well, with his intelligence i expect he retained that information, and can name the statues, without being religious about it.

in B&Z, anyway, there's actually some conflict between the boys on the subject of religion. but that's just my story.

[ejoslin]

It's actually not the only place -- Zevran's references to the Maker aren't that uncommon, though usually irreverent (to Leliana -- "the Maker gave us these parts. Do you think he put them there just for looks?". Unlike Morrigan, who completely discounts an intelligent sky daddy directing the moves.

We also may be looking at this from different world views. I'm an atheist, so the idea of someone being devout and yet leading a completely amoral life is not something that bothers me. That doesn't mean I think he spends hours in the Chantry, begging for forgiveness; nor do I think it means he goes out of his way to attend a service of any kind. But I do think he probably, on occasion, when he has the time, go to the chantry and ask for forgiveness. I also think he most likely believes in the Maker.  I see it as a "Godfather" type belief, from that type of culture.

Actually, in the world of Thedas, Morrigan's attitude surprises me more. The supernatural is a part of their existence, after all.

ETA: You get things like arrows and such when you're in the cutscene editor.  You have animations, and the arrows show the direction the character is going to move.

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 mai 2013 - 01:19 .

[Klidi]

I wouldn't say that Zevran is 'devout', but I think he sometimes thnks about these questions - the Maker, lines of Chant, etc. He's probably a more critical than a "normal" Andrastian would be, more rational and logical, and yet some of his comments (e.g. how nuns are 'pure' and he wouldn't seduce them) show that he has some respect for religion. In religious terminology, he would fall into category of "searching" - people who don't believe (and maybe never will), but who have open mind and consider all possibilities, because "what if it's true".

Personally I think he COULD find faith and believe in the Leliana's type of the Maker (the more active, caring and forgiving than the official Chantry version), but he would have problem accepting the Chantry.

[Corker]

  So glad you liked the story, Bhryaen!  US!Zev is a sad Zev but rewarding to write.

I'll second ejoslin on the "Godfather" influence. With a city named 'Rialto' and a bunch of merchant princes and assassins, I've always assumed Antiva was Renaissance Italy-inspired, and so would have heavy Chantry influence.  Whether or not you're devout, it's just in the air and in the culture.

I'd wager that many Western folks, even ones who aren't religious (or who are religious but aren't Jewish or Christian), could complete the psalm verse, "Yea, though I walk through the shadow of the ---"  You've heard it referenced in movies and books, probably even pop music somewhere.  It doesn't mean you're reading the Bible every night before bed, it just means you're part of a culture where that's a major touchstone.  (I mean, isn't there even a fairly irreverent bumper sticker that alters it to end, "because I am the meanest m-----f----- in the valley"?)

That's where I was going with it.  I think I put in that Zevran couldn't have recited the verse if someone said, "Hey you! Give me Transfigurations 1:1!"  But when someone else said it, he's like, "Oh yeah, Canticle of Transfigurations, I know that."

[BloodsongVengeance]

ejoslin wrote...
ETA: You get things like arrows and such when you're in the cutscene editor.  You have animations, and the arrows show the direction the character is going to move.

no... never seen anything like that in the cutscene editor.  even with  whatsit turned on.  the um... ugh, you know what i mean.  the thing where a walking animation moves the character, and they stay where they got moved to after the animation is done.  omg, it's been toooo long. :/



   hmm... a lot of people say 'oh god!' and 'fer chrissakes,' without being "religious" about it.  i don't know, do atheists try to avoid saying stuff like 'for god's sake!'?  so i'm thinking it's more of a cultural influence, like corker mentions.

BUT, i ain't arguing with yas.  it's open to interpretation.  just discussin'.


   or maybe i'll argue with klidi.  ;X  zevran believe in an active, caring, kindly maker?  after all the crap he's seen in his life?  mmm... no, not seeing that.  i see zevran as more po'd at the maker, if anything.  like, if the maker is so all-powerful and all-loving, why did he kill zevran's mother, why did he let zevran get sold into slavery, the whole crow training thing, the whole rinna thing?  and of course, why so much suffering world wide?  the tevinter empire, blood mages, slavery, wars, famine, plague....
   if he wanted to approach believing in a benign, caring maker, he'd first have to ask himself why the maker hates him in particular so much, to make him suffer like that.  and the answer...  would not be to zevran's liking.  and especially not to zevran's ego's liking.

  or perhaps i'm just misinterpreting leliana's version of the maker. 

[ejoslin]

Oh, believing in the maker doesn't make Him active, caring, OR kindly.  EDIT: The Maker turned His back on His people, IIRC.  Was it after Andrestre?  Or after the magisters invaded the golden city?  I don't remember at all.

And while I can't speak for all atheists, I blaspheme -- I don't worry about it. And in DAO, EVERYONE says things like "Maker's Breath." But that's not really what I'm talking about. There's an underlying assumption that there is a Maker for everyone in that culture (Human and City Elf, that is) -- it's just a part of the everyday life.

Anything else I say, I'll just be repeating myself, and while I like my voice, I know it gets tedious to listen to.

Regarding the toolset, I'm surprised that you don't get the arrows. It must be a setting I have switched on in there I guess. I find them extremely useful, so I never really looked into turning them off. I'm by no means a toolset expert -- I just go by what is on my screen. When I am positioning and whatnot, I don't get them, but once I start putting in animations, I do -- at least if I'm putting in movement.  

Bah, it's been a few years since I've really played with it, so I don't remember!

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 mai 2013 - 07:06 .

[Klidi]

BloodsongVengeance wrote...

or maybe i'll argue with klidi.  ;X  zevran believe in an active, caring, kindly maker?  after all the crap he's seen in his life?  mmm... no, not seeing that.  i see zevran as more po'd at the maker, if anything.  like, if the maker is so all-powerful and all-loving, why did he kill zevran's mother, why did he let zevran get sold into slavery, the whole crow training thing, the whole rinna thing?  and of course, why so much suffering world wide?  the tevinter empire, blood mages, slavery, wars, famine, plague....
   if he wanted to approach believing in a benign, caring maker, he'd first have to ask himself why the maker hates him in particular so much, to make him suffer like that.  and the answer...  would not be to zevran's liking.  and especially not to zevran's ego's liking.

  or perhaps i'm just misinterpreting leliana's version of the maker. 

Or perhaps he could feel lucky and blessed that he survived it all, got rid of the Crows, and found the true love? There are people who will lose faith because things you mentioned; but there are many who say the very same reasons made them convert to faith. You can never be sure how it will work. But I don't want to argue about religion and beliefs.
I'm not saying that Zevran is or ever will be Andrastian, just that he has open mind to consider the possiblity of existence of a Maker - unlike Morrigan, for example.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Yeah, I'm with ejoslin and Corker on the religion thing for Zev. He strikes me as a guy who was brought up to go to the Chantry on Sundays, learned the 'Maker's Prayer', got the idea that he should regularly go to confession for his sins, and pays a certain respect to religious icons/holy days. It feels like rote religious obligations and a general belief.

Which, for all we know, is all you need to be a true Andrastian and get a ticket to a pleasant afterlife.

[Bhryaen]

There's a heaven to "go" to in Andrasteism as well? Sheesh, just hadda be totally christian about it... But, yeah, I find myself saying "Goddammit" and OMG and "Jesus Christ!" despite being atheist. It's not really cultural for me though except that, well, if I were in a muslim country I'd be saying "Allahdammit" and "OMA" and... on second thought I'd be executed for that, so no. But maybe it's just the culture I've lived in. I wonder though sometimes if it's something else, some genetically-inclined resort to a Superman at certain moments. Plus it's fun being irreverent when people take such silly things so seriously. The atheist lines in this game can be so funny...

On Zev I mostly agree with the general line that Corker laid out- Zev doing it due to habit and or like ejoslin says of the "pious" mafia, though I also tend to consider him doing it tongue-in-cheek most of the time like an amusement, toying with whatever Maker there is supposed to be and never tiring of the experience of never hearing any response. In that way, yes, he may be playing the Pascal's Wager of "just in case", but more likely he may also suspect there's just a human (or elf) behind the whole Maker business. I do agree with Klidi that he tends to make a lot out of appreciating good turns in life and staying optimistic, though I wouldn't suspect he considers them deity-driven. He certainly never says as much. But Corker's story provides a compelling case of him potentially being capable of mulling over religious lines in a particular circumstance. Again, he doesn't have to believe there is a Maker (or two or three) to find Chantry lines relevant to him. I wasn't raised religious though, so I suppose I wouldn't know that part of Zev's life...

Brought up another nagging notion of mine though: that the Antivans are a sort of combination of Italian and East European cultures. I do now see the "godfather connection" going on storywise, as well as in names like Rialto and Antiva that are so Mediterranean it offends the Alps- makes a lot of sense- but Zev's accent. Is that Italian? I can hear some subtle Italian in the voice of Cesar (hehe, not an Italian name at all), but also Polish- like the "bl" sound when he says "Because of blight." Or Ignacio- an even more Polish voice, especially in looks. The only one that does the typical outright Italian accent is the Idle Dwarf in Dust Town who says, "I'm a-gonna stay right here on the ground" or some such. (lol) Sounds like an Italian immigrant coworker of mine...

Modifié par Bhryaen, 15 mai 2013 - 05:38 .

[Klidi]

Actually, Andrastian religion is much less like Christianity than people think. There is one god, there's a fighting prophet like Joan of Arc, and some verses of the Chant are loosely based on the psalms, but that's all. The core, the theology behind Andrastian religion is completely different, and in many cases directly opposite to Christian theology.

And you don't NEED to be a believer to swear. In fact, people who really believe in a god (not just in Chritianity) usually don't use gods, parts of god's body, or anything else related to religion for cursing. In Christianity and Judaism, it's even considered a sin, it's the 4th of 10 commandments. Swearing is hardly a sing that someone is religious. XD

There's a hilarious story about that, with favourite Grumpy Dalish ever: Profane in Vain, by Enaid Aderyn.

Polish? I'll have to listen to that again. Antiva is officially based on Spain. I changed it to renaissance Italy it my fiction because it fits more to me though that might be just because I'm more familiar with Italian people and culture (and cuisine xD) than Spanish. But Polish, that never occured to me.

Modifié par Klidi, 15 mai 2013 - 07:00 .

[Corker]

Word of God is that Antiva is inspired by Venice. You could probably swap it out with Vodacce and no one would notice. (Edited for URL tags)

I don't recall if the Chantry's afterlife was discussed much in DAO, although Andraste goes to the Maker's side (but as a co-god so that's not the norm). Definitely in DA2, Leandra Hawke talks about reuniting with dead loved ones in the Maker's sight.

Chantry bugs the heck out of me on a meta-level. If you want to play with theological themes in a game, that's awesome, but then freaking do some research. Words really matter in theology, and something like the difference between a vow of celibacy and a vow of chastity can actually be significant (*cough*Sebastian Vael, looking at you*cough*). I can get my head around regular folks having divergent and/or incorrect understandings of the theology, because that totally happens, but why do priests keep talking about intercessory prayer to the Maker like it's a thing? It's not a thing! The Maker turned his face away, stuck his fingers in his ears, and isn't listening! Maybe Andraste's listening (and I didn't realize for a while that she was accorded co-divine status) but... is that clear to anyone else? Does she answer prayers on her own, or is this a Marian cult* thing where you ask Andraste to intercede and she gives the Maker That Look and he sighs and does god-stuff? Do the devs even understand the difference between veneration and worship, and can they apply that to the Andrastian religion?

This isn't an "oh it's not like real life medieval religion so I'm mad" thing. This is a "those words, they do not mean what you think they mean" thing, with a dash of "how in the WORLD does this satisfy anyone's spiritual needs?" thrown on top.

The Qun I can wrap my brain around. They've done a great job showing what attracts people to the Qun - certainty, removal of doubt, freedom from the burden of choice. Obviously that all comes with a cost, which is also shown well. I wouldn't follow the Qun, but I can get my head around why people would.

What the heck does the Chantry offer, aside from "blood magic is bad"? I can see how that would be politically useful in its early days, but once various nations established their independence from the Imperium, how did it remain relevant? Grr, argh.

----------
*"Marian cult", term used by medievalists to describe the sudden rise of the popularity of the veneration of Mary, mother of Jesus, in... I think it was the 12th century. Not a slur against people who say the rosary or keep a plaster Mary on their front lawn.

Modifié par Corker, 15 mai 2013 - 04:26 .

[ejoslin]

Well, the Chantry offers very real protection against very real boogie men. Demons are real. The fade is real. And the Chantry (and Tevinter) has the world convinced that mages are dangerous and works to lessen that danger.

Mages are completely vilified. They Chantry teaches that it was mages who corrupted the golden city and brought about the very first dark spawn. Mages draw demons to them. Even mages who don't draw demons, if given a chance, would subjugate the majority as they are so much more powerful.

So the Chantry uses fear. Not fear of hell, as Christianity does, but fear of a tangible threat.

Of course, the Qun has its own way of dealing with mages so it's guided less by fear. It has less need for fear, though.

Edit: I never really gave this much thought.  I will have to think on it further.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 mai 2013 - 02:21 .

[Klidi]

Corker - I hear you! Maker is an Idiot God.

Let's take the creation of the world. The Maker created Spirits, then built himself a city and waited till they did his job. Spirits created the Fade, and went to show it to their Daddy. But the Maker didn't like it because it's form was ever changing, so he told them they're good for nothing. So, he took some of the world he hated so much, and of that created the physical realm with permanent form and creted a Veil between the two words. This time he didn't risk anything and created everything himself.

Then, in line with this awesome logic, he decided that the world he hated would be BOTH the way his younger children will remember him and stay in touch with him (ind dreams) and the punishment for those who don't follow his path (those would wander the Fade forever).

Then he retreated back to his City to wait what will humanoids do. Meanwile, Spirits were left alone, all they could do was to peek from behind the Veil. Who wouldn't be envious? But this envy proved fatal, as they turned into demons...

It. Makes. No. Sense! But this is what the Chant says happened.

[Bhryaen]

(somewhat paraphrased due to poor memory)
Shale: I've noticed that humans believe an awful lot of things without evidence.
Leliana: Believing things to be true without evidence is what faith is all about.
Shale: Believing things to be true without evidence is what gullibility is all about.
Leliana: *smarts* Oh, so I'm gullible now??
Shale: I take it we're no longer "sisters"?
(lol)

What ejoslin says is true- the "role" assumed by the Chantry in Thedan society seems to be mage-taming. (The Qun appear to prefer mage-neutralizing.) But that sort of "service" gets about the same veneration as the Gray Wardens. "Oh, thanks for that. Those ___ were scary and you took care of it."

But what Corker's talking about it is the way people worship the Chantry's pet Maker, going beyond gratitude to religious following. I actually like the way the writers tried to meld both worship and their "protection" role- despite the gaffs (just more to chuckle at, and after all, plenty of religious folks can't keep their story straight). Giving the Chantry a lot more specific and "useful" role in society than real world religions lends them more credibility in the Thedan world. But I can see why people would go to them not as a function of demon-reduction but for the same "reasons" people go to real world religions that lack any such effective role: willingness to believe when there are no decisive answers otherwise, community involvement, social compulsion, looking for a job, seeking a veneer of purity and a cause for self-righteousness, guilt, they like the nice outfits, tradition, etc. The Chantry is certainly a pervasive institution in Thedan society whatever the other functions and failings.

More later... must dash...

[Bhryaen]

I kind of like the whole "corrupted paradise forever guilt-baiting you for the sins of man" theme. Beats the abrahamic "original sin" theme of the appetite for apples being something to be eternally remorseful and penitent for. Plus the Black City- visible as a real entity in-game in the Fade- always at a distance- makes it seem like- whatever the Chantry account of a Maker or original Golden City (on a hill?) or spirit children wanting to be alive- there's still this odd "place" you discover that otherwise defies explanation. So the Chantry founds itself on the notion that there used to be heaven and is now ruined due to its archenemy, Imperial Tevinter, having invaded it, but there could be any number of other histories. Do Tevinters themselves also say they invaded heaven and consequently became corruption creatures?

The bit that irks me is the correlation of the Fade with darkspawn. I've replayed Wynne's original Ostagar conversation over and over, trying to understand how they're reconciling the notion that darkspawn aren't Fade creatures- not in the least- but resulted from mages interacting with the Fade. The corruption theme is compelling because the darkspawn continue to resurge unhampered until a blight due to the corruption in Ferelden's societies and politics. But the only way I can reconcile the arbitrary narrative myself it is to figure that since the Chantry is just blaming everything it can on the Tevinters, why not say Tevinters brought the darkspawn as well. I mean, it's not as if the spawns don't have a fairly, erm, fleshed out ecology- essentially a parasitic species that uses other species for reproduction- so there's really no need for a divine or even magic explanation for their evolution.

Not that any of this has to do with Zev whose compelling Fade experience is being stretched on a torture rack forever, but still...

@Corker
Is Voccace (or others in the series) worth the read? I stopped reading fantasy fiction back in the 90s with the Drizzt novels. The Zev thread folks' stories are the only such fiction I've read since.

@ejoslin
Agreed about Morrigan's atheism in a world of spirits and magic. I just heard her interaction w Shale where Shale asks if Morri can change into a golem. She answers, no, because she'd have to know the creature's "soul" (and that rock is "unchanging"). Yet another religious concept- souls. Good stuff...

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Hm. Yeah, the only thing I really remember from ingame about what sort of incentive there is to worship the Maker is that whole spiel about how He'll return once the Chant is sung from the proverbial four corners of the world. What happens if this ever comes true I don't recall, but it must be good, at least for Andrastians.

But otherwise...Andrastianity(??) as a religion is not very well defined. Certainly not as much as the qun. For the purposes of Dragon Age, it seems like it's just supposed to be a generic organised religion and that the whole faith aspect is unimportant next to the institutional/military/political aspects of the Chantry.

Where comparisons are concerned, I suspect that's truly why the Chantry is so often equated with the Church. Faith aspects barely have superficial similarities, but Christianity/Catholicism had a lot of power and influence in medieval times, as an institution, just like the Chantry does in DA.

Anyway...isn't this the Zevthread?



(Thanks, Corker )

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 16 mai 2013 - 03:41 .

[Corker]

@Bhryaen, it's worth a read only if you're into moribund RPG supplements. "Vodacce" is a sourcebook for the 7th Sea Role-Playing Game, which became Swashbuckling Adventures, and then died. It takes place in an "inspired by Western Europe" setting called "Theah" (for their diety, Theus), with a Church of the Prophets, a pseudo-French empire trying to take over everything, a land of merchant princes and assassins, and some strange barbarians on the fringes of the world. There's a world-destroying evil and it's tied to the source of magic, too. (Any wonder I took to Dragon Age so quickly? XD )

It *also* has pseduo-Zorro vs. the Inquisition and a Queen Elizabeth/King Arthur mashup going on, the remnants of an Atlantean sort of lost civilization around for your pirates and Dr. Jones to explore, and the Dutch! (whom you never see in these things) and a pseudo-Russia (also a rare bird) and a bunch of secret societies that started out AMAZINGLY historically inspired (Rosicrucians) and then got farther and farther into TEH EBIL SEKRITS and you start to wonder if you're playing Call of Cthulhu.

It's probably my favorite game ever.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

You had to mention Zorro.

[Bhryaen]

@corker
If I ever shift my obsessions around, I might check out that series. Obsolescence never daunts me. ;-) More likely I'll try out CoC first though...

But SoLD is right! As the groom's father says in the "Holy Grail" (after Sir Lancelot kills half the wedding party) "This is supposed to be a happy occasion!" Plus that's a great Zorrovran photo... I just did a Google image search on Zev... way too much... could put a new photo on here daily. This one is great though- a fan who dressed up so much like him, hairstyle and facial tattoo and all.



What? If there can be a f!Hawke why can't there be a f!Zev?

Modifié par Bhryaen, 18 mai 2013 - 10:45 .