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[Ghost Gal]

About Bull

Spoiler

fwiw I didn't feel like the BDSM was romanceless at all. But different strokes for different folks, and this isn't really about him, anyway...

 

About Bull

 

Spoiler

Well, I know affection can eventually blossom from the relationship - the whole "falling into bed, falling into love" trope that I honestly can't stand - but I can't really get behind it for the same reason I can't get behind Isabela's romance in DA2 - the game forces you to go through a long period of casual, meaningless sex in order to get to the love/affection. To me, by that point it's "too late."

 

One thing I like about DAO romances that I really miss for DA2 and DAI is how you can decide when and if you and your LI have sex. You can invite them to bed first, or wait till they invite you, or ask them to wait after they proposition you then ask again later. (Although I think Zevran, ironically, is the one who takes it best if you ask him to wait). So if you do want to go through the whole "falling into bed, falling into love" thing with Zevran, you can very well do that. If you want to wait until your Warden and Zevran have serious affection for each other, you can do that too.

 

But then, another thing I like about Zevran is that when he does proposition you, it's after he's reached the "Adore" point (just under "Love," which you don't reach until after helping him with Taliesin), and it's after he's shown that he really likes you but feels a little awkward and vulnerable about it, and tries to hide behind dirty poetry and "Antivan massages" because that's what he's used to. You can kind of headcanon, if you want, that your Warden and Zevran have become very loving and fond of each other and the sex is filled with meaning and affection--it's just Zevran is not yet ready to talk about "love" because he feels he doesn't deserve it. ("But what about love?" "I was born from a prostitute and raised in a brothel! What room is there for love?") I don't really like how DA2 and DAI romances have set places in the relationship where sex happens, and when you reach that point you have to put out or break up. And that's an extra problem for me for promiscuous, love-phobic characters who just want to f*ck you but don't want to love you.

 

 

 

I, too, am pretty grumpy that Zev got shafted in DAI. And not in the way he would've liked. Leliana even has his symbolism, with the birds and his shtick with the sneaky assassin shankery. I get why they did it - Zevran doesn't have her connection to the Divine or the Chantry as a whole, though he's not entirely irreligious - but I'm still disappointed that all we got was a bugged cameo in DA2 and then... text in DAI, whereas Morrigan, Leliana, and Alistair showed up all shiny and new in Frostbite. SIGH. Though I suppose it says something for him that he's the only LI who remains at the Warden's side.

I was thinking it might be neat if we had a Crow companion or NPC in DA4. Maybe one who knows of Zevran's reputation, knows he's been going after Crows, and is afraid of him. Could be interesting if they were working against each other... 

 

Aw man, I didn't notice that. Gosh darn it, BioWare! Bring Leliana back but not Zevran, then add insult to injury by having her steal his Crow and sneaky assassin shankery! Are there no lows you won't sink to!

 

Oh well, I do like how of all the original companions, he is ironically the most dedicated to the Warden. It's kind of funny how Zevran started out acting the most lecherous and lovephobic, but in the long run all the supposedly more monogamous companions leave the Warden or are off doing their own thing (though I can't blame King or Warden Alistair for not being able to leave his duties), yet the most promiscuous one is ironically the one who stays the most committed to the Warden. Go figure!

 

Yeah, I've kind of been hankering for another Crow companion, or NPC. I kind of wondering what they've been doing, and wanted to get another perspective on them to contrast Zevran's.

[vertigomez]

About Bull

Spoiler

Well, I know affection can eventually blossom from the relationship - the whole "falling into bed, falling into love" trope that I honestly can't stand - but I can't really get behind it for the same reason I can't get behind Isabela's romance in DA2 - the game forces you to go through a long period of casual, meaningless sex in order to get to the love/affection. To me, by that point it's "too late."

Yeah, I think this is ultimately up to personal taste. Personally, I never felt that sex with Isabela or Bull was "meaningless" or without affection, even if it was casual. The love was real, it just wasn't a romantic love - you're friends, and you care about each other, you're just not In Love™ until later on. In the meantime you're having fantastic sex with a friend.

That being said,

One thing I like about DAO romances that I really miss for DA2 and DAI is how you can decide when and if you and your LI have sex. You can invite them to bed first, or wait till they invite you, or ask them to wait after they proposition you then ask again later. (Although I think Zevran, ironically, is the one who takes it best if you ask him to wait). So if you do want to go through the whole "falling into bed, falling into love" thing with Zevran, you can very well do that. If you want to wait until your Warden and Zevran have serious affection for each other, you can do that too.

But then, another thing I like about Zevran is that when he does proposition you, it's after he's reached the "Adore" point (just under "Love," which you don't reach until after helping him with Taliesin), and it's after he's shown that he really likes you but feels a little awkward and vulnerable about it, and tries to hide behind dirty poetry and "Antivan massages" because that's what he's used to. You can kind of headcanon, if you want, that your Warden and Zevran have become very loving and fond of each other and the sex is filled with meaning and affection--it's just Zevran is not yet ready to talk about "love" because he feels he doesn't deserve it. ("But what about love?" "I was born from a prostitute and raised in a brothel! What room is there for love?") I don't really like how DA2 and DAI romances have set places in the relationship where sex happens, and when you reach that point you have to put out or break up. And that's an extra problem for me for promiscuous, love-phobic characters who just want to f*ck you but don't want to love you.

In some ways, I do miss the freedom to establish the pace of the relationship, but I get why they changed it. On my first few playthroughs of DAO I completely blew through the romance dialogue and had to wait until nearly the endgame to hear anything new, and then next time when I tried to pace myself I ended up having conversations in Orzammar that I really should have had in Lothering! So as far as having a neater, tighter romance arc goes, I get why they chose a more fixed timeline.

But I think it would be nice if they found a middle ground. Like in DAI there are some romances where you can say, "let's take it slow" and opt out of a sex scene. But I think it would be nice if you still got a scene later on, even though you declined the first time? That way you could still enjoy the content as part of the arc, but if you're playing a character who would wait, or who isn't confident in the relationship or whatever, you can.

Aw man, I didn't notice that. Gosh darn it, BioWare! Bring Leliana back but not Zevran, then add insult to injury by having her steal his Crow and sneaky assassin shankery! Are there no lows you won't sink to!

Still raging against the heavens! Ah well, we can dream.

Spoiler

source

Oh well, I do like how of all the original companions, he is ironically the most dedicated to the Warden. It's kind of funny how Zevran started out acting the most lecherous and lovephobic, but in the long run all the supposedly more monogamous companions leave the Warden or are off doing their own thing (though I can't blame King or Warden Alistair for not being able to leave his duties), yet the most promiscuous one is ironically the one who stays the most committed to the Warden. Go figure!

Yes! I find it funny how he's so loyal he'd follow you 'to the Black City itself... never doubt it' and then

Spoiler

In DAI a Warden ends up physically in the Fade. It could have been the Warden, and then Zev could make good on his promise.

[Qun00]

I am grateful that the writers took control over the romance's pace.

I suck at managing it and always end up regretting that a conversation happened too early or too late.

[Ghost Gal]

Yeah, I think this is ultimately up to personal taste. Personally, I never felt that sex with Isabela or Bull was "meaningless" or without affection, even if it was casual. The love was real, it just wasn't a romantic love - you're friends, and you care about each other, you're just not In Love™ until later on. In the meantime you're having fantastic sex with a friend.

 

*shudders* Sex without romantic love is ice in my womb. It makes my blood run cold.

 

This is, again, why I don't like later games deciding when in the relationship the two hop into bed. I actually don't even like sex in general, but it makes the romance-heavy LIs tolerable since the sex comes after the "I love you"s. For the "casual fun" romances, the game forces you to hop into bed before the discussion of commitment or love can even come up, and I don't like that. If anything, it kind of kills replay-ability since I don't want to touch the casuals, so I just replay the games romancing the romantic ones over and over until I'm done with it.

 

In some ways, I do miss the freedom to establish the pace of the relationship, but I get why they changed it. On my first few playthroughs of DAO I completely blew through the romance dialogue and had to wait until nearly the endgame to hear anything new, and then next time when I tried to pace myself I ended up having conversations in Orzammar that I really should have had in Lothering! So as far as having a neater, tighter romance arc goes, I get why they chose a more fixed timeline.But I think it would be nice if they found a middle ground. Like in DAI there are some romances where you can say, "let's take it slow" and opt out of a sex scene. But I think it would be nice if you still got a scene later on, even though you declined the first time? That way you could still enjoy the content as part of the arc, but if you're playing a character who would wait, or who isn't confident in the relationship or whatever, you can.

 

Yeah... there's like ONE romance in DAI where you can ask to "take it slow" (Dorian), but the rest have designated spots in the romance where you have to click the heart icon and get a sex scene, or a heart-break icon and you have to break up. You basically have to put out or break up in most of these scenes, and for the one that lets you ask to wait you get denied a sex scene later as punishment for not putting out when the game wanted you to.

 

I don't mind later games tying the relationship's pacing to the solving of main story quests rather than the raising of approval (since you can get their approval to skyrocket and have them go from "mildly friendly" to "madly in love" in the span of one main story quest), but again, I'm disappointed by the lack of varied dialogue or ability to control when the sexy happens.

 

For example, Alistair's romance in DAO had a story progression. You say something that triggers a romance flag, which gets him to think of you "that way." After that, you get a cutscene where he gives you a rose, then one where he kisses you, then one where he confesses his love and invites you to bed if you two haven't already. I think you can only ask him to bed after the kiss scene (since, like Leliana, he requires more wining and dining before going to bed), but even if you asked him to bed sooner you'll still get the "I love you" scene (where he says "Being near you makes me crazy! I feel like my head's about to explode"), so the story progression of the romance hasn't changed even though the place where you have sex in it has.

 

Same with Zevran. If memory serves, after triggering a romance you'll get a cutscene where he recites dirty poetry, then one where he offers his famous "Antivan massage," then Taliesin in Denerim, then the whole drama with the earring and him not wanting sex until he sorts through his discomfort with love and commitment. If you don't ask then you get sex when he offers his "Antivan massage," but if you have sex as soon as possible it'll probably be before the dirty poetry, but you'll still get the dirty poetry scene even if you already slept together. You'll also still get the discomfort with love and commitment after Taliesin even if you haven't slept together. (Though there's no reward for waiting, since he'll still ask, "As the nun asked the famous actor: What now?" even if you waited till after the earring.)

 

You see where I'm going with this? I know DAO romances had a pacing issue, but that's because the relationship's progression was tied to the rise in approval rather than the completion of main story quests. I think the devs assumed that we players would slowly talk to them and raise their approval over the course of the game, but most players are approval wh*res who exhaust all dialogue, give all the gifts, take them on all quests where we know they'll approve of our every word/action, etc, so we wind up having them go from zero to one hundred by the end of one or two main quests; leaving us with three to four where our LI has nothing to say till the end of the game.

 

I don't necessarily mind later games deciding to tie relationship progression with main story quest completion (or dragon-killing completion, in the case of Bull--though having to kill a dragon to get him to "fall in love," if that's what you want to call it, is just another in a long string of beefs I have with him), but I do mind the game forcing you to jump into bed at designated points (first thing in the "relationship" for the casuals; after the "I love yous" for the committers) or break up.

 

I'm also not fond of the dialogue wheel's highly watered down conversation options for romantic discussions, but that's an issue for another time.

 

Still raging against the heavens! Ah well, we can dream. Yes! I find it funny how he's so loyal he'd follow you 'to the Black City itself... never doubt it' and then

Spoiler

In DAI a Warden ends up physically in the Fade. It could have been the Warden, and then Zev could make good on his promise. 

 

LOL If the Warden had cameo'd in DAI and was at Adamant, you KNOW

Spoiler

Zevran wouldn't have fallen through the giant rift the Inquisitor made when everyone fell off the cliff, but would have turned up a few minutes later, cheerfully asking what's the plan now. When the Warden asks, "Zevran! What are you doing here?" he'd say all briskly, "Ah, there was a little rift close by. A rather tight fit, but nothing I could not squeeze through. That actually reminds me of a story..." Hawke: "You jumped through a little rift to follow us?" "Of course!" I just know he would! XD

 

EDIT: *Sigh* Is it just me, or has this website's quoting system started SUCKING recently???

[GoldenGail3]

Still raging against the heavens! Ah well, we can dream.

Spoiler

source

I image my quiz would like "What are you doing?" When Zev did that. I would also hope never to see DA2 Zevs face again... I can't even... Bioware, you failed us the day we saw DA2 Zevran.

[VivainaDX]

I image my quiz would like "What are you doing?" When Zev did that. I would also hope never to see DA2 Zevs face again... I can't even... Bioware, you failed us the day we saw DA2 Zevran.

Yeah, Zev DID look pretty bad but at least his personality was spot on, his pick up line was impossible to turn down.

[GoldenGail3]

Yeah, Zev DID look pretty bad but at least his personality was spot on, his pick up line was impossible to turn down.

I slept with him as my canon... With Isabela... Me thinks Alexander will get into bed with her at any opportunity...

[Spirit Vanguard]

Yeah, Zev DID look pretty bad but at least his personality was spot on, his pick up line was impossible to turn down.

Ha! Zevran certainly didn't disappoint in maintaining his personality. I loved seeing him again in DA2 and I shamelessly flirt with him every time I play---but my romantic companion is always with me so, you know, he also gets blocked by them every time. Except when I was romancing Isabela. She doesn't mind "sharing" in that case.

[GoldenGail3]

Ha! Zevran certainly didn't disappoint in maintaining his personality. I loved seeing him again in DA2 and I shamelessly flirt with him every time I play---but my romantic companion is always with me so, you know, he also gets blocked by them every time. Except when I was romancing Isabela. She doesn't mind "sharing" in that case.

Agreed, and my canon is the Isabela romance so....

[Spirit Vanguard]

Agreed, and my canon is the Isabela romance so....

 

The threesome with Isabela is the only time I've ever slept with Zev in DA2. But honestly, even if I never brought my other romances with me on that quest I would still reject him. Because fidelity.   Bringing them along just so they can DENY him is fine with me.

 

What's screwed up about it is the threesome was on the import where I romanced him with my Warden... So I actually helped him cheat on her with my Hawke and Isabela.   

[GoldenGail3]

The threesome with Isabela is the only time I've ever slept with Zev in DA2. But honestly, even if I never brought my other romances with me on that quest I would still reject him. Because fidelity.   Bringing them along just so they can DENY him is fine with me.
 
What's screwed up about it is the threesome was on the import where I romanced him with my Warden... So I actually helped him cheat on her with my Hawke and Isabela.   

My warden would be like WHAT THE F DID YOU DO HAWKE? But luckily, my Warden was in a nice happy romance with Alistair. So...

[VivainaDX]

My warden romanced Zev and got into a threesome with with Zev and Isabella so Isabella would teach the warden her skills and my Hawk was with Isabella in DA2, so threesoming Zev at that time only seemed natural. I figure Zev and my warden have an open relationship, he's stated before that you should take your pleasures where you can get them, so if they've been apart for an extended period of time, why not, when you live like anyday could be your last, it's ok to occasionally get side tracked. Besides if the 4 of them were ever to meet up, they could all have some group alone time...